Will Dalinar learn how Kaladin became a slave, in WOR?

[Duskshard]

Oh, I just got all excited rereading chapter 5 "Ideals"

 

“Speaking frankly,” Kaladin said—he wouldn’t ask for permission. This man had put him in the role, so Kaladin would assume it came with certain privileges, unless told otherwise. “Every man I’ve ever called ‘Brightlord’ has betrayed me. A few men I’ve called ‘sir’ still have my trust to this day. I use one more reverently than the other. Sir.”

 

 

I can see it playing out that neither Kal or Amaram will say anything to Dalinar in the beginning to acknowledge any history/connection between them.

 

Kal will refer to Amaram as Brightlord instead of sir to Dalinar, or to Amaram within hearing distance of Dalinar, making Dalinar suspicious, leading him to investigate and discover that Kal's slave brand is from Amarams district.   

  

The waiting to find out is a killer.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Duskshard

[Bremen]

In the US, dueling was a way of resolving disputes through the 18th century.  Maybe anyone of sufficient status could publicly challenge Amaram and insult him to the point where he or his champion would have to respond or be considered a coward. 

I wonder whether they could put a Shardblade in Kaladin's hands for 10 minutes, recognize him for meritorious service at the Tower and let him at it.  Or maybe Adolin could challenge and insult Amaram for him. 

I don't think they would do it unless it fit their overall strategy, but it might be possible.

Why would Kaladin need a shardblade?  He's turn it down anyway.

 

Kaladin no shards vs Amaram with shards .... do you seriously think that is a contest?

[+eveorjoy]

All Radiants followed the first Ideal of 'Journey Before Destination'

If you see it as Journey = killing Kaladins squad to gain Shards to which no one will dispute your claim in order to achieve Destination = saving hundreds of lives, Amaram is clearly putting his destination before his journey.

I'm obviously totally biased against Amaram here, but I don't see how he could get past that one and be a KR.

 

You have a point, but consider this. A spren chose to bond with Shallan, a thief and murderer, because she admitted she was a murderer. Some want to say it was in self-defense but Pattern said she was sharing a powerful truth at the time.

 

Maybe as surgebinders took on the oaths the old sins of the past were ignored as long as the proto-radiant promised to never do that stuff again. Further a spren could bond with someone without them becoming a radiant. Kaladin was already surgebinding before he knew the first oath and Shallan has never spoken any of the oaths. We don't even know for certain if Jasnah has spoken the oaths, she may have but we don't know.

 

I'm not saying Amaram has bonded with a Spren, he probably hasn't, but as far as we know he could have.

 

@hoser-- You have a point, but winning Amaram shards away from him in a duel would not be enough to satisfy justice. It's better than nothing true, but Amaram could away win the duel.

 

Also, I don't see Adolin at this point dueling on Kaladin's behalf, nor do I believe Kaladin would fight with shards. He doesn't know how to use a sword, loves the spear, and Syl hates shardblades.

 

I don;t know why people are so eager for Kaladin to get a shardblade anyway. Kaladin sensed something was wrong with the blade long before Syl ever said anything.

Edited January 31, 2014 by eveorjoy

[Aether]

A spren chose to bong with Shallan.

This small spelling mistake got me to imagine a really funny scene with a high Shallan. "You mean to say that some lies can be true? Like, WOAH!" +1

[Arondell]

A spren chose to bong with Shallan,

 

Favorite typo ever.

[+eveorjoy]

I fixed it. LOL. But the d key is not so far from the g key.

[Aether]

I fixed it. LOL. But the d key is not so far from the g key.

No! 'Twas so much better the way it was!

 

Oh, well, at least it will live on in our pre-spelling-correction quoting. And yes, I frewuently spell things wrong because I hit the wrong button too.

 

EDIT: You might not believe this, but that spelling mistake was entirely unintentional! Hilarious though if you do believe me.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Aether

[Delightful]

You have a point, but consider this. A spren chose to bond with Shallan, a thief and murderer, because she admitted she was a murderer. Some want to say it was in self-defense but Pattern said she was sharing a powerful truth at the time.

 

You've got a good point. I'd say we don't know enough about Shallan's history yet to fully make that kind of judgement.

However you just made me realise that self-defence is technically Destination Before Journey. I wonder how that one works.

 

 

 

 

Maybe as surgebinders took on the oaths the old sins of the past were ignored as long as the proto-radiant promised to never do that stuff again. Further a spren could bond with someone without them becoming a radiant. Kaladin was already surgebinding before he knew the first oath and Shallan has never spoken any of the oaths. We don't even know for certain if Jasnah has spoken the oaths, she may have but we don't know.

True. I wonder if someone behaved wrong according to their spren before speaking the ideals, the spren would leave them? Syl nearly left Kaladin when he was really depressed, and said if she left and couldnt come back she wouldn't be herself.

Again with Shallan I think we can't be totally certain about her and the oaths, but it would seem quite likely that she hasn't spoken any.

 

In any case, the Kaladin/Amaram/Dalinar dynamic is going to be *very* interesting.

 

Edit: I just realised, Kaladin's whole character arc of "It is possible to kill to protect" would totally contradict the Journey Before Destination thing I mentioned above. I'll take it as a case of "self-defence and protecting others doesn't count even though it involves killing someone else to achieve the goal, simply because it's self-defence". Maybe that should have been obvious.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Delightful

[Riftwise]

Oh, I just got all excited rereading chapter 5 "Ideals"

 

 

I can see it playing out that neither Kal or Amaram will say anything to Dalinar in the beginning to acknowledge any history/connection between them.

 

Kal will refer to Amaram as Brightlord instead of sir to Dalinar, or to Amaram within hearing distance of Dalinar, making Dalinar suspicious, leading him to investigate and discover that Kal's slave brand is from Amarams district.   

  

The waiting to find out is a killer.

I am wondering why nobody (in world) has thought to find out where Kaladin was made a slave.  He doesn't hide his slave brands, does he?  Maybe it is impolite to look?  

Although, we never read specifically which glyphpair it is.  Maybe Amaram had him branded under another district.  You would think Kaladin would notice what the glyphpair was.  Tvlakv knew he was from Amaram.

I realize that Dalinar and Adolin may not be able to read glyphpairs, but Navani would and clerks in Dalinar's household could.  He is around them by virtue of being around Dalinar.  They must have looked at the brands.  Someone should make a connection between Kaladin being made a slave in Amaram's district and the fact that Amaram is a House friend.  Then they should wonder if there could be bad blood between them!   

 

[+eveorjoy]

Kaladin has long hair and wears a spearman's cap most of the time. Dalinar saw the glyphs after he was rescued, but he probability didn't look at them to closely and has not seen them since. Kaladin most likely keeps them covered up. I doubt Dalinar or Adolin have thought about looking at the glyphs because they have been too busy with other matters.

 

As the story progresses, and someone notices Kaladin giving murderous looks to Amaram, and maybe calling him "brightlord," Dalinar, Adolin, or bridge four members are going to look more closely at Kaladin's scars and note where he was enslaved.

 

In fact I wonder if Rock and Teft are going to ask what's going on in Kaladin's fifth chapter.

 

Dalinar can read some glyphs. Adolin can't at all.

Edited February 10, 2014 by eveorjoy

[FingerstyleFunk]

I am wondering why nobody (in world) has thought to find out where Kaladin was made a slave.  He doesn't hide his slave brands, does he?  Maybe it is impolite to look?  

Although, we never read specifically which glyphpair it is.  Maybe Amaram had him branded under another district.  You would think Kaladin would notice what the glyphpair was.  Tvlakv knew he was from Amaram.

I realize that Dalinar and Adolin may not be able to read glyphpairs, but Navani would and clerks in Dalinar's household could.  He is around them by virtue of being around Dalinar.  They must have looked at the brands.  Someone should make a connection between Kaladin being made a slave in Amaram's district and the fact that Amaram is a House friend.  Then they should wonder if there could be bad blood between them!   

 

 

Kaladin's glyphs are Sas Nahn (plus the more recent Shash). It's the title of the flashback chapter where he gets them, even. And it's mentioned in Kaladin's first chapter that the slave brands represent the highlord's district where the person is made a slave. The guy he's talking to when that's mentioned has Sas Morom.

 

I'm guessing from the repeated Sas that anyone interested can probably tell that Kal was enslaved in Sadeas' princedom, at least, but that shouldn't be at all surprising to anyone who knew he was in Sadeas' bridge crews. I'm not sure if Sas Nahn would point specifically to Amaram. It's definitely not his personal glyphpair, but we don't know how districts would be identified.

[Riftwise]

Thanks FingerstyleFunk! That makes perfect sense. Now back to waiting for the reveal...

Edited February 10, 2014 by Riftwise

[Gloom]

I'm skeptical that Highlord Amaram would be personally involved in the branding of slaves. I believe that Kaladin would be an outlier here. The branding of slaves is more than likely a function of the magistrate. This being the case, no one would have reason to suspect that Kaladin would have been personally branded by the Highlord. I am not disputing the Highlords authority to personally brand someone, I'm simply suggesting that most of the time this authority would be delegated down to the magistrate.

 

Even in the case where a slave is personally branded by a Highlord, which may occur on occasion to deserters and thieves within a military camp, it would be assumed that the person found guilty and branded for said crime was guilty, and had no one but themselves to blame for their branding. In this case it wouldn't be expected that the slave would hold animosity for the person who branded them so much as perhaps those that caught him.

 

It would, in my opinion, likely be considered rude to ask someone who just saved your life, your sons life, and the lives of 2500 of your soldiers what kind of criminal he is, so I'm not surprised that Dalinar hadn't broached the topic as yet.

[AerionBFII]

I don't think it will come to a fight between Kaladin and Amaram.. i think kaladin has to have higher standards as a potential KR.

But Kaladin did kill The shardbearer so would the Shardblade recognize him as it's owner?

 

Personally i am hoping he gets one of those honor or dawn shards!!

 

Long Live TeamKaladin !! 

[Arondell]

 

But Kaladin did kill The shardbearer so would the Shardblade recognize him as it's owner?

 

Shardblades need to have the holder consciously form a bond.  Since Kaladin never touched the blade such a bond could not have occurred.

[don_karma_II]

But Kaladin did kill The shardbearer so would the Shardblade recognize him as it's owner?

 

 

There was a flash of light from the gem on the shard blade when Amaran takes the shard blade. I think the bond was made between Amaran and the blade at that moment. 

[AerionBFII]

damnation it...

[AerionBFII]

i was hoping the fact that kaladin beat the shardbearer would count for something.
This early in the series i can't imagine Dalinar or Adolin believing kaladin's story even if he brought it up...which i don't think he will.
 

Not given Dalinar's and Gav's past friendship with him and Amaram's reputation for being a decent man and just leader :B

[+eveorjoy]

i was hoping the fact that kaladin beat the shardbearer would count for something.

This early in the series i can't imagine Dalinar or Adolin believing kaladin's story even if he brought it up...which i don't think he will.

 

Not given Dalinar's and Gav's past friendship with him and Amaram's reputation for being a decent man and just leader :B

 

I agree that Adolin would not believe Kaladin, but Dalinar might. He has already seen Kaladin bring down a Shardbearer and I doubt he would believe Kaladin deserted. However, I agree that Kaladin won't just tell Dalinar either.

[Blindillusions]

I'm sorry, but Amaram's actions in regards to how he obtained his shards are reprehensible and have no justicfication. What he has done with those shards in the time he has had them is irrelevant. That he chose to have his own men killed and one enslaved at the suggestion of another is inconsequential as the ultimate decision was his.

What it comes down to is this: Amaram murdered three of his Soldiers and enslaved another. As a leader of Soldiers, I find what he did to be the most evil act a leader can do. Someone above mentioned that leaders have to make the hard decisions. This is true. Amaram makes decisions every day that could lead to the death of many men. But that's not the choice he is making here. He murdered his men.

In the next few months I will take command of a company. My choices will greatly affect the lives of the Soldiers who serve in that company. Should I have to take my company to war, there is a chance that Soldiers within that company could make the ultimate sacrifice. My company and myself could be placed in a situation where some of us may die. And yes, the orders I give could very well lead to those deaths. But never, and I do mean NEVER, would I be justified in putting a gun to one of my Soldier's head and pulling the trigger. My 1SG could suggest it. My battalion commander could suggest it. My XO could suggest it. That one death could save the lives of the rest of my company. My battalion. The United States. The world. It would still not be justifiable. A true leader of men would never murder one of his Soldiers.

I am a captain in the United States Army. I am a leader of Soldiers. Those Soldiers' lives are my responsibility. It is an honor and a trust I take very seriously. Amaram does not deserve the position he is in. He deserves to be tried, convicted and sentenced to death for breaking the trust of his position. Nothing he has done with the ill-gains of his break of trust, or anything he may eventually do, will ever justify the actions he took. I'll step off my soapbox now.

Edited February 15, 2014 by Blindillusions

[FollowYourMuse]

I'm sorry, but Amaram's actions in regards to how he obtained his shards are reprehensible and have no justicfication. What he has done with those shards in the time he has had them is irrelevant. That he chose to have his own men killed and one enslaved at the suggestion of another is inconsequential as the ultimate decision was his.

 

I like your soapbox and agree,   I am hoping that Dalinar has changed enough that he will see that "his old friend"  and this hero is no hero, after all before the shattered plains Dalinar was basically a different person.

[vikorr]

I'm sorry, but Amaram's actions in regards to how he obtained his shards are reprehensible and have no justicfication.

 

Amaram's actions were certainly reprehensible. There was 'justification' - just no acceptable justification.

 

 I find what he did to be the most evil act a leader can do

 

Except perhaps a general betraying his men to be slaughtered by the enemy, or a leader slaughtering millions for their own enrichment (or his/her own countries glory), or ordering a minority slaughtered for the sake of your own popularity, or working people to death for no purpose except you can...etc.

 

All that said...I'm glad your soldiers are in good hands.

[Moogle]

Except perhaps a general betraying his men to be slaughtered by the enemy, or a leader slaughtering millions for their own enrichment (or his/her own countries glory), or ordering a minority slaughtered for the sake of your own popularity, or working people to death for no purpose except you can...etc.

 

Or perhaps villifying and slaughtering every member of a minority to consolidate your power and unite your nation under you?

 

I have to agree here. Amaram hasn't sunk to the greatest possible depravity yet. Blindillusion's soapbox was well written though.

[Blindillusions]

Where's the justification? Nothing about his decision was morally or legally right.

He broke the trust he as a leader has with his men. That is the most evil act a leader can do. Your first example is simply another version of that breach of trust. You other examples, while evil, are not what I was speaking to. I'm speaking of a specific instance and what I, as an officer, consider to be the worst thing a leader can do.

But then, it's all a matter of perspective. I'm an officer in the US Army. My values and opinions are those of such. A Soldier places his or her life andfaith in their leaders. It is that leaders responsibility to keep that faith and do everything possible to protect those lives. Amaram, in that one instant, threw that responsibility away. He deserves his guilt, just as he deserves his fate, whatever that fate may be as deemed by the laws of Roshar.

Edit: Also, allow me to clarify. I am speaking in the terms of military leadership, not political leadership. The belief I am espousing is in the vein of pure military. An officer in any army can make decisions that are military, political or both. It is my opinion based on my values that the worst thing a leader can do in regards to the military is break the trust of those he or she leads. And there is nothing which can justify breaking that trust.

Edited February 15, 2014 by Blindillusions

[Gloom]

I'm not one to defend Amaram generally. What he did was a complete betrayal of his sworn duty. That being said, Kaladin didn't leave Amaram many options. Amaram offered Kaladin the Shards, not once, but twice. If Kaladin had offered them to Amaram, surrendered them to his liege lord in front of witnesses and sworn to relinquish all claim to them, then things may have turned out differently. Instead he tried to give them to a darkeyed spearman of unknown skill and character. This was not an acceptable option.

 

We have to really look at what ownership of the Shards means to the owner. These are weapons of unprecedented power on Roshar. To own a full set of Shards is the equivalent of having super powers. Anyone capable of winning them from a Shardbearer deserves them, but to allow them to fall into the hands of an unknown is extremely dangerous. To have the person who won them basically say they don't want them, but will give them to an even more junior, potentially less loyal soldier is unacceptable.