Will Dalinar learn how Kaladin became a slave, in WOR?

[SpiteMalice]

i hope Adolin duels Amaram for his shards and kicks his chull. probably unlikely, but would be awesome nonetheless.

I hope Kaladin duels Amaram for his shards, unarmoured, with Renarin's set as a stake (to tweak Adolin's nose), wins, gives them back to Amaram since he's backing Dalinar and says something badass in a whisper like "you didnt have to murder my friends, you could have just asked".

[DocHoliday]

  If it was even 1% likely that they wouldn't be fanatically loyal to him, and Amaram saved over 10000 lives, then it's pretty clear what the choice is given consequentialist ethical framework and saving lives as your primary goal. (Emphasis belongs to DocHoliday)

 

 

We don't know what Amaram is doing, so it is entirely possible that rumors would entirely ruin his plans.

How about your plans just went to Hell, and Kaladin's squad just saved those 10,000 lives; and there is no theoretical possibility about it.  It happened. That Shardbearer was wrecking havoc on the army, I have no trouble imagining major percentages dieing.

Zero gratitude for the dudes who clearly have the same agenda, keeping everyone alive and standing up when something threatens.

Maybe he already has. If Amaram is a KR potential that would be so hard for Kaladin. 

Teft says not all the KR got along so maybe this will be one of those instances. 

[lordofsoup]

Amaram cannot in his current state a KR.  Through taking the Shardplate and murdering Kaladin's men to preserve his reputation (read Honor) he has completely resisted the goals of Honor as a Shard.  Obviously he could be redeemed, but it seems to me that he has a long journey before that can happen.  People in this thread who seem to think that there are multiple definitions of honor, fail to recognize that Honor is a physical thing, a power whose ideals cannot be changed.  Though they may all have different spren, the Ideals bind them together and they cannot be ignored.

[Aleksiel]

I don't think Amaram is a KR potential, because he killed Kaladin's squat. Whatever his justification, he broke the first ideal of the Radiants, so he can't be one unless WoR's Amaram is some new and different version of him from WoK.

[Moogle]

Amaram cannot in his current state a KR.  Through taking the Shardplate and murdering Kaladin's men to preserve his reputation (read Honor) he has completely resisted the goals of Honor as a Shard.  Obviously he could be redeemed, but it seems to me that he has a long journey before that can happen.  People in this thread who seem to think that there are multiple definitions of honor, fail to recognize that Honor is a physical thing, a power whose ideals cannot be changed.  Though they may all have different spren, the Ideals bind them together and they cannot be ignored.

 

Honor is not an objective force in the Cosmere. Spren are based on human perceptions, honorspren are the same. Each holder's personality filters the Intent of a Shard. If Shallan and Jasnah can be KR, it wouldn't surprise me if Amaram could manage it.

 

As to Amaram: sure, he can't be redeemed if we're going by Honor's goals, but I happen to believe Cultivation might approve of Amaram/Taravangian. What they're doing could definitely be viewed in a cultivation-y light (burning away the old growth for new growth). It would be neat if she was actually the one behind Voidbinding, and Honor/Cultivation had a more... complex relationship than just being lovers.

 

And of course, Cultivation could be 50% of the KR, meaning Amaram can still be a KR if he gets into a Cultivationy order. (Maybe Kalak's?)

Edited January 29, 2014 by Moogle

[Swimmingly]

NOOOOO!!!

 

Just. Just. No. Amaram made him a slave. Killed his friends/squad. Failed to protect Tien. Whatever his reasoning, Kal hates him and just no. I will not accept this.

 

(I may have to later revise that statement once I've read the book. Still. No.)

Maybe there's an order of the KR that sees all those actions as perfectly acceptable.

[+eveorjoy]

Maybe there's an order of the KR that sees all those actions as perfectly acceptable.

 

I agree. Amaram won't be a Windrunner, because he will not attract Honor spren, but he could attract another kind of spren. Maybe he already has and that is why he knows so much.

 

Actually, what if Amaram noticed somehow what Kaladin was, apologized, and then offered to train him. He could be a mentor for him like Jasnah is for Shallan. Kaladin doesn't have a lot of options and he promised Syl he would become a Radiant. Amaram maybe be the only way.

 

Most likely not, but it would be interesting.

Edited January 29, 2014 by eveorjoy

[weebojello]

NOOOOO!!!

 

Just. Just. No. Amaram made him a slave. Killed his friends/squad. Failed to protect Tien. Whatever his reasoning, Kal hates him and just no. I will not accept this.

 

(I may have to later revise that statement once I've read the book. Still. No.)

I wonder if it were to happen, the context of the fight being that the third ideal, is one of forgiveness some how. In Kaladin forgiving Amaram, however unlikely that sounds, Kaladin gets a power up, ala Scott Pilgrim.

[Aleksiel]

Maybe there's an order of the KR that sees all those actions as perfectly acceptable.

 

I disagree. Journey before destination, remember? 

[+eveorjoy]

I wonder if it were to happen, the context of the fight being that the third ideal, is one of forgiveness some how. In Kaladin forgiving Amaram, however unlikely that sounds, Kaladin gets a power up, ala Scott Pilgrim.

 

Kaladin's story arc in book one focused on him becoming someone who could protect. This book two's arc is about the path of honor vs the path of vengeance.

 

Maybe ideal three is "I will seek honor before vengeance."

[Aleksiel]

Kaladin's story arc in book one focused on him becoming someone who could protect. This book two's arc is about the path of honor vs the path of vengeance.

 

 

Vengeance? I think you misspelled justice. 

Edited January 29, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Morsk]

Vengeance? I think you misspelled justice. 

It could still be their Ideal to seek honor before justice. There's another order that does justice, and having leaders / protectors also be judges is a bad idea. It wouldn't mean no justice, just that Kaladin can't seek it personally, which would be very hard.

[+eveorjoy]

Vengeance? I think you misspelled justice. 

 

The difference between Justice and Vengeance is both intent and what is legal. Right now killing Amaram would not be Justice necessarily. Kaladin would not be killing  Amaram because he wants to put right what was wrong, in fact that would be impossible. He would kill Amaram because he is really angry. How Kaladin deals with Amaram will shape his destiny as a KR.

[Aleksiel]

I really doubt Kaladin will kill Amaram, though imo he deserves it. He should be punished for what he did and I don't care if his conscience tormented him all those years. Best case scenario (imo again) Amaram dies protecting Kaladin when Szeth comes for Dalinar. So there, dead and somewhat redeemed. Amaram ruined Kaladin's life and killed his man. Forgiveness and turning the other cheek is not what I want to read. Not vengeance either, but justice. 

 

Edit: spelling

Edited January 29, 2014 by Aleksiel

[hoser]

I love this!

Vengeance? I think you misspelled justice. 

Seriously, given that the second ideal for Kaladin involved protecting (primary windrunner attribute), I think the third will involve leadership (secondary windrunner attribute). 

Since Kaladin's spiritual challenge in this book is to put leadership ahead of vengeance (toward Amaram and Sadeas), the ideal could help him move past vengeance by referring to the leadership or the overall goal as his sole aim. 

[Aleksiel]

I love this!

Seriously, given that the second ideal for Kaladin involved protecting (primary windrunner attribute), I think the third will involve leadership (secondary windrunner attribute). 

Since Kaladin's spiritual challenge in this book is to put leadership ahead of vengeance (toward Amaram and Sadeas), the ideal could help him move past vengeance by referring to the leadership or the overall goal as his sole aim. 

 

Again, there shouldn't be vengeance but justice. Honor and justice don't contradict each other. I will be very disappointed if Brandon makes it seem like Kaladin can only choose between forgetting and revenge.

 

About the second ideal connected to leadership: I doubt it. Look at Lift's ideal 'I will remember those who have been forgotten' when Edgedancers are associated with loving and healing. It's a bit far-fetched from love.

[hoser]

Again, there shouldn't be vengeance but justice. Honor and justice don't contradict each other. I will be very disappointed if Brandon makes it seem like Kaladin can only choose between forgetting and revenge.

 

About the second ideal connected to leadership: I doubt it. Look at Lift's ideal 'I will remember those who have been forgotten' when Edgedancers are associated with loving and healing. It's a bit far-fetched from love.

I agree there should be justice and it would be honorable.  At this point it would be vengeance for Kaladin, I think, and moving past his need for vengeance is where he needs to go to advance as a Radiant.

I could argue the second point.  Being forgotten could be seen as the opposite of love, even more than being hated. 

[+eveorjoy]

Maybe the third idea is: I will seek Justice not Vengeance.

[rimorob]

The theme of Kaladin recently has been responsibility to others.  It seems most likely that he will forgo revenge, and thereby 'progress' as a radiant.  On the other hand, the evolution of Amaram is harder to guess (as we haven't seen much of him to learn his motivations).

[Iarvos]

  

We don't know what Amaram is doing, so it is entirely possible that rumors would entirely ruin his plans. I think the best we can do at this point is say that maybe Amaram's actions are justified in a consequentialist framework and maybe they're not.

 

Just because we don't know something with complete certainty doesn't mean that we have to assign equal weight to all the possibilities. I don't know for certain that the moon isn't made of cheese as I've never been to the moon and tried to eat it*, but I can say that while it may be made of cheese, it almost certainly is not as the preponderance of circumstantial evidence is against the moon being made of cheese. 

 

Similarly, without any reasonable evidence that what Amaram was doing was necessary beyond his own and Restare's beliefs (which are themselves of unknown value), we can reasonably say that while Amaram may have been justified in some framework which we can only guess the details of because we have no evidence for it, its more likely that the killings were unjustified based on the evidence that we do have, such as the already demonstrated loyalty of Kaladin and his men (charging a hostile shardbearer for Amaram's sake), 

 

Another way to look at the whole situation is to judge Amaram as Amaram judged Kaladin and his men. To use Moogle's summary, If there's even a 1% chance that by killing Amaram, 100 people's lives could be saved, than Amaram should be killed (per Amaram's suggested  philosophy, I'm not saying that's Moogle's philosophy). In this vein it could be argued that Kaladin - knowning that he has in the past saved thousands of lives and will likely save thousands more - should do his best to kill Amaram as Amaram represents a threat to Kaladin. It would be the "safest way" of ensuring that Amaram won't act against Kaladin again, possibly preventing Kaladin from saving thousands of lives. 

 

*Been to the moon yes - tried to eat it no. Stupid spacesuit. 

Edited January 30, 2014 by Iarvos

[Shadow Guardian]

Before this most recent set of chapters, I expected Kaladin to force a confrontation with Amaram as soon as he saw him, and then figured that the truth would come out after being forced to stop. Now though, given that the missing chapters seem to all be Shallan, and any mention of a confrontation is conspicuously absent from Adolin's chapter, I suspect Kaladin held himself back. Nonetheless, I think at some point or another, a confrontation will get forced between them, and the truth of Amaram's actions will be brought to light.

 

I do like the idea of Kaladin dueling Amaram for the shards and then giving them away again, but doubt things will go that route.

[+eveorjoy]

Okay, to all who want Amaram to receive Justice by Alethi law, how can that happen? Kaladin has no proof that he won the shards, none. Kaladin may get justice, but it will not be through the law. Even if Dalinar learns the truth, I doubt he will be able to help Kaladin either.

 

Kaladin didn't confront Amaram because he is wise. 

Edited January 30, 2014 by eveorjoy

[Arondell]

Okay, to all who want Amaram to receive Justice by Alethi law, how can that happen? Kaladin has no proof that he won the shards, none. Kaladin may get justice, but it will not be through the law. Even if Dalinar learns the truth, I doubt he will be able to help Kaladin either.

 

Kaladin didn't confront Amaram because he is wise. 

 

Your more or less right.  Unless Amaram publicly confesses their isn't much that Kaladin can do legally.  It seems inevitable that one way or another Dalinar is going to pick up on the hostility between Amaram and Kaladin and is going to want to know what is going on.  If Amaram makes public accusations about Kaladin being a deserter...Well...I would hope given Kaladin's recent actions that at least some people, Dalinar in particular, would find the idea that Kaladin deserted in the face of the enemy hard to swallow.   Amaram probably needs to step carefully just as much as Kaladin.  Depending on how it plays out their might actually be a legal/social/political stalemate between the two of them.  If/when Dalinar learns that Kaladin is bonded to an honorspren then Amaram's credibility with Dalinar would probably go right down the drain if he made careless accusations.

 

Of course the other high princes will be circling like sharks smelling blood during all this.

[hoser]

Okay, to all who want Amaram to receive Justice by Alethi law, how can that happen? Kaladin has no proof that he won the shards, none. Kaladin may get justice, but it will not be through the law. Even if Dalinar learns the truth, I doubt he will be able to help Kaladin either.

 

Kaladin didn't confront Amaram because he is wise. 

In the US, dueling was a way of resolving disputes through the 18th century.  Maybe anyone of sufficient status could publicly challenge Amaram and insult him to the point where he or his champion would have to respond or be considered a coward. 

I wonder whether they could put a Shardblade in Kaladin's hands for 10 minutes, recognize him for meritorious service at the Tower and let him at it.  Or maybe Adolin could challenge and insult Amaram for him. 

I don't think they would do it unless it fit their overall strategy, but it might be possible.

[Delightful]

Maybe there's an order of the KR that sees all those actions as perfectly acceptable.

All Radiants followed the first Ideal of 'Journey Before Destination'

If you see it as Journey = killing Kaladins squad to gain Shards to which no one will dispute your claim in order to achieve Destination = saving hundreds of lives, Amaram is clearly putting his destination before his journey.

I'm obviously totally biased against Amaram here, but I don't see how he could get past that one and be a KR.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Delightful