Will Dalinar learn how Kaladin became a slave, in WOR?

[Shardlet]

Journey before destination.  The ends do not justify the means.

[Colby Jack]

I don't want to defend Amaram more than I've already, but I have another quote to add to that little bit of optimism.

It's easy to be a saint in paradise.

[Shardlet]

I don't think that Amaram's treachery was in "stealing" the plate and blade.  It was the murder of the remainder of Kaladin's squad and the banishment of Kaladin to avoid uncomfortable questions and prevent Kaladin from having a change of heart and laying claim to them.  Kaladin did not really care about the disposition of the plate and blade.  He said to give them to one of his men as an afterthought to get people to let him be rather than pester him about why he did not want them. 

 

As with so many things in politics in the US, the act is not the problem, but the cover-up is.  That is when a poor choice typically becomes a scandal.  Amaram taking control of the plate and blade would not have been a big deal.  Since Kaladin refused them, nobody would have batted an eye or thought it unusual or even inappropriate for Amaram to take them up.  But, Amaram chose to make sure that Kaladin could not reasonably lay claim to them.  He killed any witnesses that would support Kaladin's claim.  He reduced Kaladin to zero status such that his word would never be taken seriously.  The only mercy was that he spared Kaladin's life because Kaladin saved Amaram's life.  This is Amaram's treachery.  Murder and deceit.

[Colby Jack]

I agree with a lot of that. I just didn't like people quoting the Ideals like the bible.

Edited December 27, 2013 by mrwerd

[stratix]

Maybe this is known by the forum frequenter, but It seems to me like Amaram is part of the GhostBloods.  Is it possible he saw Kaladin glowing while he was fighting the shardbearer.  If this is the case, I think he had a moral conflict between the mission of the ghostbloods and his own personal wish not to harm Kaladin for saving his life.  If this were the case, he did what was the most moral thing he could think of.  Destroy all witnesses to Kaladins KR potential and let Kaladin go as a slave.  At least this way he didn't have to swing the ax himself.

[Moogle]

Journey before destination.  The ends do not justify the means.

 

This remains to be proven, to me. I am uncomfortable with this being said like it's a fact. Following the Ideals gives you power, but I don't see how it would also prove that the Ideals are 'right'. It's all from Honor that the Ideals spring. If the Shard of Pragmatism was around on Roshar, would you say "Destination before journey. The ends justify the means" just because acting in according with that philosophy gave the Knights Utilitarian power? That doesn't seem right to me.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Moogle

[hoser]

Welcome! Let me recognize your arrival with an upvote!

Maybe this is known by the forum frequenter, but It seems to me like Amaram is part of the GhostBloods.  Is it possible he saw Kaladin glowing while he was fighting the shardbearer.  If this is the case, I think he had a moral conflict between the mission of the ghostbloods and his own personal wish not to harm Kaladin for saving his life.  If this were the case, he did what was the most moral thing he could think of.  Destroy all witnesses to Kaladins KR potential and let Kaladin go as a slave.  At least this way he didn't have to swing the ax himself.

I do struggle with this analysis. 

 

In chapter 51, when Amaram is about to murder Kaladin's men and enslave Kaladin, he is talking as he enters.  He says

"... Why Thaidakar would risk this?"  Amaram was saying, speaking in a soft voice.  "But who else would it be?  The Ghostbloods grow more bold.  ..."

 

This is Amaram's inner circle and people who will not be in a position to reveal anything later.  He is speaking as if his opposition is the Ghostbloods, which, if the Shardbearer was Nan Heleran, is probably true. 

 

If he thought Kaladin was a Radiant to be, I think he would have killed him or treated him better than he did.  At that stage in Kaladin's development, he seemed noteworthy to his men, but he didn't obviously glow.  To the brightlord whose horse had fallen on him and was about to be killed by a Shardbearer, he would likely not have noticed that his darkeye savior was moving a little bit too fast until after the Shardbearer was dead and then there would have been nothing to see. 

[Natans]

Maybe this is known by the forum frequenter, but It seems to me like Amaram is part of the GhostBloods.  Is it possible he saw Kaladin glowing while he was fighting the shardbearer.  If this is the case, I think he had a moral conflict between the mission of the ghostbloods and his own personal wish not to harm Kaladin for saving his life.  If this were the case, he did what was the most moral thing he could think of.  Destroy all witnesses to Kaladins KR potential and let Kaladin go as a slave.  At least this way he didn't have to swing the ax himself.

 

1- I don't think that Kaladin are in the stage of glowing, although "the wind behaved in strange ways" when he was protecting his men. Teft that know what look for only noticed when Kaladin begin glowing muchhhh later.

 

2- If Amaram noticed such thing he would risk letting such potential enemy to "die away" ? I don't think  so =)

 

What Amaram did was focused in the Shardblades and the unknown information that he have about the come desolation, provided, I believe by the stormwardens(Restares). 

 

3- The ghostbloods tried to kill Amaram =)

 

Like Shallan said there are many groups digging for secrets.

 

Ghostbloods - (Evil organization of dark, full of evil dudes that are basically want domain the wolrd)

Ardentia - (Fallen Religious organization that want domain the wolrd, again)

Taravagian - (Esquisofrenic genius - sometimes - cold bloodkiller that want unify the wolrd by killing all the politician. [hum.... Kill the  politician that aren't a bad idea, tell me again why he are bad anyway? )

Stormwardens - ( Secret organization mix of scients and weather girls so full of secrets that we really don't know anything beside that they are full of secrets)

Veristialian, or at least, Shallan herself - (Wit, harsh genius princess that act like vigilante in free time)

Mr. Darkness "The Evil" gruop AKA "Fallen Heralds followers" - (Maybe ex-herald, that maybe could be Nalan, that maybe are trying to prevent the next desolation that are 100% for sure psyco antisocial fella)

StoneShamans - (Shins version of Ardentia mixed with Shaolin monks, (someone trainned Szeth didn't?) whose religion are basically the inverse of Vorinism, don't walk stone, don't fight, don't use stormlight, etc)

Envisegers - ( The only organization that apparently know something of use about radiants, ideals, etc, and are working too bring back the only force that could save mankind, AKA The Knight Radiants, such pity that they all died =) )

 

 

If I could bet in someone of this merry list Amaram would be part of the Stormwardens club =)

[Shardlet]

This remains to be proven, to me. I am uncomfortable with this being said like it's a fact. Following the Ideals gives you power, but I don't see how it would also prove that the Ideals are 'right'. It's all from Honor that the Ideals spring. If the Shard of Pragmatism was around on Roshar, would you say "Destination before journey. The ends justify the means" just because acting in according with that philosophy gave the Knights Utilitarian power? That doesn't seem right to me.

 

Except that we are on Roshar which is/was overseen by Honor for purpose of this thread, not on the planet overseen by Pragmatism.  So the fact that surgebinders living the ideals resulting in power-ups, suggests that the ideals have some substantial importance and value on Roshar.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Shardlet

[Matrim]

What I don't get is why everyone is against odium. He clearly, with absolutely no evidence and tons of assumptions, is the only one doing the "right" thing. We shouldn't judge too quickly. What if, by killing off one planet, he accomplishes a goal that he himself deems worthy. An actual shard should know what's best for all. I mean... Can you believe the audacity of honor, wit, dalinar, and Mr T trying to contradict him?

[Natans]

What I don't get is why everyone is against odium. He clearly, with absolutely no evidence and tons of assumptions, is the only one doing the "right" thing. We shouldn't judge too quickly. What if, by killing off one planet, he accomplishes a goal that he himself deems worthy. An actual shard should know what's best for all. I mean... Can you believe the audacity of honor, wit, dalinar, and Mr T trying to contradict him?

 

Hum....  I'm smelling irony here,.... yes, yes Irony it is =)

 

Harsy comparasion =) I don't like Amaram, but he havea  "excuse"of doing for the great good. Odium are doing for the lulz, because e make part of the "Joker School of Let's wacth the Wolrd burn" =)

 

One upvote for the wit remark and welcome =)

[Colby Jack]

Except that we are on Roshar which is/was overseen by Honor for purpose of this thread, not on the planet overseen by Pragmatism.  So the fact that surgebinders living the ideals resulting in power-ups, suggests that the ideals have some substantial importance and value on Roshar.

The world is alien, but the people are still human. They are each individuals, with their own philosophy and way of life. If you think that the ends justify the means, that's okay. If you think otherwise, that's fine too. The shades of morality is different for everyone. No one should have any say on what a person's beliefs should be and how they must live their life, not even a God. Just because Honor favors those who live a life of honor, does not mean this is the only right way for a person to live. There is a time for honor, and there is a time for evil. Some people are always needed to dirty their hands so others do not have to. There is no one "super philosophy" for everyone and every situation. And if there were, the Ideals of the Knight Radiants is not it.

The Ideals of the Knight Radiant was written by a man. The Shard of Honor was also just a man. Like us. Which is why I really hate it when people quote the Ideals of the Knight Radiant as if a single sentence is the answer to every situation.

[+eveorjoy]

Welcome! Let me recognize your arrival with an upvote!

I do struggle with this analysis. 

 

In chapter 51, when Amaram is about to murder Kaladin's men and enslave Kaladin, he is talking as he enters.  He says

 

This is Amaram's inner circle and people who will not be in a position to reveal anything later.  He is speaking as if his opposition is the Ghostbloods, which, if the Shardbearer was Nan Heleran, is probably true. 

 

If he thought Kaladin was a Radiant to be, I think he would have killed him or treated him better than he did.  At that stage in Kaladin's development, he seemed noteworthy to his men, but he didn't obviously glow.  To the brightlord whose horse had fallen on him and was about to be killed by a Shardbearer, he would likely not have noticed that his darkeye savior was moving a little bit too fast until after the Shardbearer was dead and then there would have been nothing to see. 

 

I agree, but a thought just occurred to me. Maybe he let Kaladin live not just because he saved his life, but also because maybe he thought Kaladin could be useful in the future. He did bring down a shardbarer after all. That does say something of Kaladin's worth as a warrior.

[Colby Jack]

Actually, let me add that the Shard of Honor is only just that, a shard of a whole, a piece of an incomplete soul. Just as Odium is compelled to hate, Honor may also have suffered from the same compulsion towards one very specific aspect with the same obsession. So what right does Honor have to tell anyone how to live their life? He is an incomplete God, a dead God. Just because his philosophy is fancy and optimistic, does not mean jack.

 

Otherwise, perhaps everyone should follow Odium, since he's as old as Honor and clearly more powerful. Their qualifications for that role are dead even.
 

Edited December 28, 2013 by mrwerd

[+eveorjoy]

Actually, let me add that the Shard of Honor is only just that, a shard of a whole, a piece of an incomplete soul. Just as Odium is compelled to hate, Honor may also have suffered from the same compulsion towards one very specific aspect with the same obsession. So what right does Honor have to tell anyone how to live their life? He is an incomplete God, a dead God. Just because his philosophy is fancy and optimistic, does not mean jack.

 

Otherwise, perhaps everyone should follow Odium, since he's as old as Honor and clearly more powerful. Their qualifications for that role are dead even.

 

 

Personally I would want to follow Cultivation.

 

You can follow Odium if you want. However, everyone in the world will die if Odium gets his way.

[Swimmingly]

I argue that Amaram was a basically decent human being who was tempted by a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity that could be his key to true success. I imagine he was quite irritated at being a backwoods brightlord fighting border battles while the high princes warred

[IllNsickly]

Journey before destination. The ends do not justify the means.

This is the qualifier for me.

Good men sometimes do bad things for what they might think are good reasons... Dunno if Karma exists on Roshar, but her bill is always collected. Amaram will have to answer for HOW he acted. Though I somehow doubt if either Kaladin or Dalinar are involved....

That being said.

If Kaladin DOES confront Amaram, we already know that he can defeat a full Shardbearer. He has proven it thoroughly once, and that was before he Spoke the Ideals. With his new understanding of his bond with Syl and of his use of Stormlight, if it comes to confrontation and a fight, it probably won't be a Duel, it will be a "fight in the streets" and Kaladin will have no need of borrowed shards to win that fight.

[hoser]

It is very intriguing to me that Brandon is creating all these takes on honor.  From modern Dalinar and Kaladin we go through more ambiguous takes like the Parshendi, Jasnah and earlier Dalinar to figures like Sadeas, Mr. T and Szeth. 

 

Amaram seems like one of the middle figures to me.  He seems to know what is honorable and he cares about it, but when push comes to shove, he does what is best for himself.  His behavior seems remarkably consistent to me. 

 

Kaladin remarks on his treatment of the darkeyes with uncommmon consideration (sheltering them in his headquarters, for example).  Yet, time after time, he falls short of the honorable ideal. 

1. Taking Tien to satisfy Roshone is expedient, as Tien is clearly not a suitable candidate warrior.  While Roshone might be able to force the choice, in combination with the following point, it shows Amaram falling short of ideal honorable behavior.
2. Promising to protect Tien without following through is clearly a failure to be honorable.  He has him assigned to a messenger role, but doesn't pay attention enough to keep him from being reassigned and sacrificed on the front lines. 
3. Amaram's battle strategy is almost the clearest example of his lip service to honor.  We see only one battle, but the pattern is so clear that Kaladin knows to count on it.  He sends out a sacrificial wave of inadequately trained and poorly led darkeyed soldiers (arrow and sword fodder) to blunt the initial assault, then sweeps through with his elite forces.  While it seems to be effective, it is hard to see it as preserving darkeyed lives.  Consider the following quote from Kaladin, "Amaram's forces were recovering; they'd win the day before long.  In fact, Amaram would probably be leading a direct surge against the enemy by now.  He generally entered the battle at the end."  It is essentially a larger version of the strategy that was used to sacrifice Tien. 
4. Taking the Shards for himself while murdering and enslaving the rightful owners is a more brazen example of his expedient behavior, but really quite consistent. 

[Shardlet]

If Kaladin DOES confront Amaram, we already know that he can defeat a full Shardbearer. He has proven it thoroughly once, and that was before he Spoke the Ideals. With his new understanding of his bond with Syl and of his use of Stormlight, if it comes to confrontation and a fight, it probably won't be a Duel, it will be a "fight in the streets" and Kaladin will have no need of borrowed shards to win that fight.

 

Except the difference is that Amaram knows Kaladin has defeated a shardbearer and is a skilled very warrior and thus Amaram is likely to be more wary of Kaladin in a fight and not underestimate him.  This would give Amaram a better chance than the other shardbearer had.

[Moogle]

Except the difference is that Amaram knows Kaladin has defeated a shardbearer and is a skilled very warrior and thus Amaram is likely to be more wary of Kaladin in a fight and not underestimate him.  This would give Amaram a better chance than the other shardbearer had.

 

I'd argue that Kaladin, now that he's aware of his Surgebinding potential, is stronger than he was. That said, Amaram knows how Kaladin killed the Shardbearer and is likely to wear something to protect his eyes if it comes to a fight, so I'm not sure what Kaladin can really do without any Shards. Lashing gigantic rocks only worked for Szeth because he had a Shardblade.

[Shardlet]

Another unknown is how skilled Amaram is at fighting, particularly with plate and blade.

[+eveorjoy]

I think when Kaladin faces his next Shardbearer, be it Szeth, Eshonai, or Amaram, he will have a half-shard shield. I think this is one of the reasons half shards were mentioned in TWoK.

 

I still don't think there will be a Amaram vs.Kaladin fight however. There is going to be less dueling in the camps as Dalinar enforces the Codes. I doubt Amaram will want to face Kaladin, because I don't think he would want to risk his life or his shards. I doubt Kaladin will try challenge Amaram because, he never wanted those shards, he might think Dalinar has a use for Amaram, and he might fear challenging Amaram will cause him to lose something important.  

[Shardlet]

Maybe, but I don't see the Alethi getting a hold of half-shards in the next book.  If Kaladin went at it with Amaram, though, (and there will be a serious confrontation if not an actual fight) it would be about Amaram's betrayal (murdering the remainder of Kaladin's squad and enslaving Kaladin) rather than about the plate and blade.

[.S.A.M.K.M]

 Half shards would allow body guards better capable in their duties.

 Kaladin might share his past so his boss can use the info against the bad guy.

[krill]

I can just see the scene where Kaladin is on guard for Dalinor and Amaram comes walking in and they greet each other as old friends. Kaladin will probably be so angry that he may loose control and confront him then and there. That would be crazy intense.  I don't see any other way that this comes to light as Kaladin doesn't seem likely to confide in anyone about the events that put him in slavery.

 

Also in reference to it being justice for Kaladin to hold Amaram accountable for what happened, The first two ideals that we know about don't have anything to do with that so unless the next ideal is something along those lines I would anticipate Kaladin to have to find another way out of this rather than a direct confrontation.