steelrunning secondary powers: what kind of imbalanced broken power is that?

[Edgedancer]

I believe I have some explanation for Iron Feruchemy. On the moon, astronauts are lighter, but still have the same mass and inertia and density and all that. Iron Feruchemy is essentially a more personal and limited version of Gravitation Lashings.

Two problems 1) Brandon specifically refered to him manipulating his mass and 2) manipulating you gravitational bond is a spiritual attribute and not a physical one and as such this explanation would completely throw over the current classification we have for Feruchemy. (although granted, i think some of that is still up to the jurry nayway, after Brandon didn't want to retcone the two metals he switched up once.)

[king of nowhere]

True enough.  Though when it comes down to deciding between "this shouldn't be possible because physics" and "the protagonist made an incorrect assumption" I'm going to go with the choice that doesn't break physics until I am presented with compelling evidence to the contrary.

On the other hand, wax made that assumption. he spent the last twenty years chasing metalborn criminals, he certainly has a vast culture on the topic. other learned people around, like wayne or marasi or any of the constables, didn't correct him. really, steel ferings aren't that rare. if a person that should know makes an incorrect assumption about something that should really be known, and there are several other people around who also should know and none corrects him, I'm going 'huh?'  instead of assuming a simple mistake.

 

And by the way, yet another way steelrunning is broken: gravity! A steelrunner tapping speed at 10x should not be able to run at 10x, because when you run you jump forward and upward with every step. If you arein bullet time, everything should be slower to you, including the speed at which you fall to the ground. Consider how astronauts moved in the low gravity of the moon; that's how a steelrunner should move. Instead, bleeder could move without limitation of the sort. We have the scene when wax has her same speed thanks to a bendalloy bubble (those bubbles speed up time, so it makes sense that wax is at normal gravity in the bubble), and he sees her running, not jumping around. Well, it is possible steel act on the way gravity affects you, but it's still another way it is overly powerful and keeps offering food for the whole "why isn't the world ruled by steel compounders? how did the inquisitors fail to spike elend and vin anyway?" arguments.

 

Yes, I am afraid brandon wrote himself in a hole there. Either that, or someone should ask at the next signing some clarification about steel and all that.

 

EDIT: @ three1415

I don't think compounding is really the problem here; compounding of other metals are strong, but still reasonable. as the first book has shown, there are plenty of ways to bring down a gold compounder, the easiest of which requires only some ropes. It's the power of feruchemical steel that is the problem. there just is no counter to that.

Edited December 21, 2015 by king of nowhere

[Kaymyth]

On the other hand, wax made that assumption. he spent the last twenty years chasing metalborn criminals, he certainly has a vast culture on the topic. other learned people around, like wayne or marasi or any of the constables, didn't correct him. really, steel ferings aren't that rare. if a person that should know makes an incorrect assumption about something that should really be known, and there are several other people around who also should know and none corrects him, I'm going 'huh?'  instead of assuming a simple mistake.

 

And by the way, yet another way steelrunning is broken: gravity! A steelrunner tapping speed at 10x should not be able to run at 10x, because when you run you jump forward and upward with every step. If you arein bullet time, everything should be slower to you, including the speed at which you fall to the ground. Consider how astronauts moved in the low gravity of the moon; that's how a steelrunner should move. Instead, bleeder could move without limitation of the sort. We have the scene when wax has her same speed thanks to a bendalloy bubble (those bubbles speed up time, so it makes sense that wax is at normal gravity in the bubble), and he sees her running, not jumping around. Well, it is possible steel act on the way gravity affects you, but it's still another way it is overly powerful and keeps offering food for the whole "why isn't the world ruled by steel compounders? how did the inquisitors fail to spike elend and vin anyway?" arguments.

 

Yes, I am afraid brandon wrote himself in a hole there. Either that, or someone should ask at the next signing some clarification about steel and all that.

 

EDIT: @ three1415

I don't think compounding is really the problem here; compounding of other metals are strong, but still reasonable. as the first book has shown, there are plenty of ways to bring down a gold compounder, the easiest of which requires only some ropes. It's the power of feruchemical steel that is the problem. there just is no counter to that.

 

Bands of Mourning spoilers:

Actually, in BoM it's stated that Steelrunners are relatively rare.  They're not one of the more common Ferring types.

 

Something else occurred to me today, but I'm gonna need to wait until I can get home to look up the necessary backup.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Moogle
Please tag BoM spoilers unless you're in the subforum for it.

[Edgedancer]

Actually, in BoM it's stated that Steelrunners are relatively rare.  They're not one of the more common Ferring types.

 

Bands of Mourning spoilers:

Actually, in BoM it's stated that Steelrunners are relatively rare.  They're not one of the more common Ferring types.

 

I think that mention was already in SoS and I find it weird to be honest. A type of ferring being noticably rarer doesn't exactly make sense, given that the assignment of the metal happens completely at random. It really points towards them being that op and Brandon having to artificially limit the availability of the power.

 

Already getting us excited, are you.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Moogle

[Moogle]

From an objective, in-world standpoint, I really hate Compounding. I think it makes all logic fly out the window; it utterly annihilates any semblance of realism in the Mistborn world. Any Compounder that works with any of the more useful Feruchemical abilities is so much more vastly powerful than even a Twinborn that they could easily install themselves as another Lord Ruler; a Gold Compounder is already at ludicrous strength, and a Steel Compounder is so laughably overpowered that they could do anything they wanted, whenever they wanted, without any concern for anything ever again. 

 

Combining this with the fact that we know people in the previous books (e.g, the Lord Ruler, Steel Inquisitors) should have been able to Compound, it also raises the question how any of the protagonists managed to do anything at all, ever, and why a Steel Compounder does not currently rule Scadrial.

 

A Gold Compounder's weakness is a net. Or ten people holding him down. A Gold Compounder isn't powerful in the slightest for world control.

 

And as for Steel Compounders... they are absurdly powerful, no question, but they have to sleep, and they have to be constantly burning steel (which runs out relatively quickly from what I understand). They have other weaknesses:  a Steel Compounder cannot react to a sniper rifle unless they're constantly moving (which will tire them out) or tapping far faster than Compounding should be able to give you. They're vulnerable to bendalloy + nicrobursts. They're limited by their ammunition, if they have guns.

 

Bands of Mourning minor spoilers:

Bands of Mourning reveals that tapping mental speed makes you hungry. To speculate, tapping physical speed likely speeds up everything associated with being awake: you get hungry, thirsty, need to go the bathroom, and need to sleep faster if you tap physical speed.

 

If my speculation is true, Steelrunners are screwed if they want to try and rule the world as they won't be able to fight for very long.

 

On your last point with regards to the Inquisitors and TLR... I agree, the protagonists should have flat out lost in every case. In the Annotations, Brandon talks about the difficulty the Inquisitors had with learning to Compound and how it took time during the scene in which one runs out of speed, but recent WoBs indicate that he's retconned that or something. I'm waiting for another AMA to ask.

 

And by the way, yet another way steelrunning is broken: gravity! A steelrunner tapping speed at 10x should not be able to run at 10x, because when you run you jump forward and upward with every step. If you arein bullet time, everything should be slower to you, including the speed at which you fall to the ground.

 

This depends on whether or not Feruchemical steel is basically a personalized bendalloy bubble, but this is a very good point.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Moogle

[Kaymyth]

I think that mention was already in SoS and I find it weird to be honest. A type of ferring being noticably rarer doesn't exactly make sense, given that the assignment of the metal happens completely at random. It really points towards them being that op and Brandon having to artificially limit the availability of the power.

 

Already getting us excited, are you.

 

Well, except how do we know it's at random?  It isn't, necessarily.  It's built into the person's spiritweb, which is a totally different thing than random.  It's a function of their soul.  It may well be that some powers suit a wider range of people than others.

 

And...eh.  It's not really worth getting excited about.  Just something I remembered reading.  Hang onto your hats, kids, because I'm about to do The Thing That Must Not Be Done.  I...am gonna cite the MAG.

 

Now, hold your horses!  Don't pick up those torches and pitchforks yet!  Just sit back with a refreshing beverage of your choice and hear me out.  Then you can chase me out of town with torches and pitchforks.

 

The particular thing is in the section on steel - a liner note from Brandon himself:

 

Tapping speed is one of a Feruchemist's most powerful tools, but remember that the Metallic Arts are all about ramifications and consequences.  For example, dramatically increasing your speed and hitting someone with an iron bar while running past them might do a lot of damage, but the hand(s) and arm(s) holding the bar are jolted backward with the same force.  At a certain point the Narrator is fully justified in applying some of the character's damage back on him or her, and this can result in serious injury, or even a Burden.

 

Now, obviously this doesn't give us any usable specifics, but it tells us that Brandon has thought about the balances involved in Steelrunning.  It may be powerful, but it's also dangerous for the practitioner.  I think it lends at least a little bit of credence to the idea that Paalm got away with some of her stunts by being considerably more resilient than a human.  A miscalculation and a few broken bones might inconvenience her, but those same injuries on a human would cripple or kill.

 

Of course, this doesn't even begin to solve the Lockpicking At Speed problem, or the How The Rusted Heck Do You Get A Gun To Fire That Fast problem.

[Three1415]

A Gold Compounder's weakness is a net. Or ten people holding him down. A Gold Compounder isn't powerful in the slightest for world control.

You see, the reason why most of you think Compounding in general in not horribly broken is because you are trying to apply it via the "Compounder = normal human + awesome power" philosophy, when in reality it would be more like "Compounder = GOD LEVEL POWER + [barest trace of human limitations]." 

 

If I were a Gold Compounder in combat, I wouldn't use guns, or swords, or any real weapons. I would get several bandoliers filled with a few dozen sticks of dynamite and toss them indiscriminately at whoever got within thirty feet of me.

 

Guy with net? Boom!

 

Pulser? Boom!

 

Any suspicious-looking human? Boom!

 

No non-Compounder should be able to get close enough to disable you, because you can do things so ludicrously destructive and suicidal that no-one without Gold Compounder powers should be able to withstand even a second or two near you.  The reason Miles was defeated so easily is because he was an idiot as a plot requirement, and because even Brandon rarely considers how exploitable his magical systems are. 

 

Likewise for Steel Compounders--sleep somewhere else. And by "somewhere else" I mean "run several hundred miles in a random direction and pitch camp." No one will be able to follow or find you, and you don't have to be physically present to assert your power if everyone knows any opposition towards you will be mercilessly slaughtered a few minutes after news reaches you or you return the following morning. 

 

The above god-levels of power are accorded to any of the following Compounders: Steel, Gold, Duralumin, Nicrosil, Pewter, and Zinc. And saying that they are "rare" is ludicrous; Elendel is stated to have a population of above a million, which is only a fraction of that of the rest of Scadrial, so even incredibly unlikely occurrences are bound to happen at least once or twice--and here, once or twice is enough to break pretty much everything.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Three1415

[Moogle]

If I were a Gold Compounder in combat, I wouldn't use guns, or swords, or any real weapons. I would get several bandoliers filled with a few dozen sticks of dynamite and toss them indiscriminately at whoever got within thirty feet of me.

 

This is a trick that is countered by the fact that you're invincible, but the things you're carrying aren't. Unless the blast radius is too small for your own explosives to damage you - but then your opponents (say, a Coinshot) will also be able to avoid the blasts.

 

You can only carry so many explosives, and they can be triggered from afar by people with explosives of their own. When you're out of explosives, you're not dangerous.

 

Gold Compounders can't heal wounds caused by aluminum, so that's another easy way to kill Gold Compounders.

 

You can also just spike Gold Compounders to steal their powers kill them that way. (A bullet spike can work by WoB.)

 

Gold Compounders are really kind of weak.

 

Likewise for Steel Compounders--sleep somewhere else. And by "somewhere else" I mean "run several hundred miles in a random direction and pitch camp." No one will be able to follow or find you, and you don't have to be physically present to assert your power if everyone knows any opposition towards you will be mercilessly slaughtered a few minutes after news reaches you or you return the following morning.

 

Can you run several hundred miles in a day? Steel Compounders are not enhanced physically, and are limited by their own bodies. And you're going to need to carry around a lot of steel. You can't do Vin's horseshoe trick, which means you leave behind a trail of breadcrumbs wherever you go if you want to use Allomantic steel to fly places.

 

Fundamentally, you're going to be out of commission for 8 hours a day due to the need to sleep. More, because whenever you're using your speed you're using up your waking hours (probably). If you travel around at 2x speed (which isn't good enough to be a world ruler), you can only be up for 8 real-time hours before needing to sleep. Not to mention how much you'll need to eat and drink...

 

Steel Compounders are further limited by air resistance by WoB.

 

How are you supposed to have "news reach you"? If you're getting news from people, that means you need to be standing around talking to them (though there are radios, which introduce their own set of problems), which means you're vulnerable. You could have a spy network, but then you risk moles and traitors. How tempting would it be for an informant to lie and get you to kill people who aren't opposing you? You can't exactly trust your informants. It also allows people to track you down. If surprised, you die to an explosive like anyone else.

 

You're countered by a Pulser + Nicroburst as well. They use their powers and instantly hours pass by before you can react and tap enough speed to counter the effects. (Again, you can't be running around at 100x speed all day.) People build a gigantic wall around you. Cadmium bubbles go through walls, so all that needs to happen is for someone to radio in your location, then they find somewhere you can't see, then cadmium you. You can't stay hidden forever. This might be hard for them to do, but is within the realm of possibility.

 

Someone burning electrum will know when you're about to kill them, and can be used as bait to use one a method to counter you... though I admit I wouldn't want to be the one doing it.

 

Steel Compounders are absurdly powerful, I agree, but I think you're overestimating them slightly.

 

The above god-levels of power are accorded to any of the following Compounders: Steel, Gold, Duralumin, Nicrosil, Pewter, and Zinc. And saying that they are "rare" is ludicrous; Elendel is stated to have a population of above a million, which is only a fraction of that of the rest of Scadrial, so even incredibly unlikely occurrences are bound to happen at least once or twice--and here, once or twice is enough to break pretty much everything.

 

Duralumin is absurdly broken, no question about it. Though I note the connection likely goes two ways - you can make people love you, but you love them in turn. Not so good for being an evil mastermind, probably good for being a famous public figure.

 

We don't know what nicrosil does. I don't know how you can say it's broken.

 

Pewter is awful. If you tap enough strength, your muscles inflate to the point where you can't move. What's the point?

 

Zinc is utterly broken, no question there, though see my previous Bands of Mourning spoiler.

 

Importantly, if you combine these powers like TLR did, there's no way you should ever ever lose. But with only access to one set? Eh. Super powerful yes, world ruling no. In the worst case, Harmony just keeps track of your location and helps kandra set up a situation where you can be countered. If you want to try and live in a metal enclosure for your whole life, you're going to have difficulty ruling the world.

 

---

 

We also can't forget magnets.

 

Scadrial may not have them yet, but in a few decades, the counter to things like Steel Compounders is "live in a house and turn on a powerful electromagnet". It isn't a perfect method (they are countered by the "throw bombs from afar" trick), but it's another huge flaw for any Compounder. You need to be wearing your metalminds, and it would be really inconvenient if they ripped your arm off when you approached the person you wanted to kill.

 

There's also the Coinshot + Nicroburst trick, which should let Coinshots superPush on metalminds piercing your skin. And mechanical Allomancy is a thing...

Edited December 22, 2015 by Moogle

[Edgedancer]

A Gold Compounder's weakness is a net. Or ten people holding him down. A Gold Compounder isn't powerful in the slightest for world control.

 

And as for Steel Compounders... they are absurdly powerful, no question, but they have to sleep, and they have to be constantly burning steel (which runs out relatively quickly from what I understand). They have other weaknesses:  a Steel Compounder cannot react to a sniper rifle unless they're constantly moving (which will tire them out) or tapping far faster than Compounding should be able to give you. They're vulnerable to bendalloy + nicrobursts. They're limited by their ammunition, if they have guns.

 

Bands of Mourning minor spoilers:

Bands of Mourning reveals that tapping mental speed makes you hungry. To speculate, tapping physical speed likely speeds up everything associated with being awake: you get hungry, thirsty, need to go the bathroom, and need to sleep faster if you tap physical speed.

 

If my speculation is true, Steelrunners are screwed if they want to try and rule the world as they won't be able to fight for very long.

As for Steel compounders, I'd like to add that an ordinary sniper rifle will likely not work, if they are smart enough to also burn allomantic steel and have steel lines/bubble warning them. Of course that can be sidestepped with obsidian arrows or aluminium guns.

 

Did Kandra have a stamina limit? I can't quite remember but one of their blessings gives both extra strenght and endurance, so I think they would have. I ask because I can't think of a time when Bleeder could have taken a proper rest, unless tapping steel also lets you recover faster, and in that case you think she'd be at least a bit winded after all the exersice she did.

 

Also by that logic shouldn't a steel feruchmist be able to artificially extent how long they can stay awake by tapping speed and as such tiring slower?

 

On the Coinshot+Nicroburst trick, I'm not sure that would work if the metal is both piercing skin and investd with a feruchmical charge.

[Moogle]

As for Steel compounders, I'd like to add that an ordinary sniper rifle will likely not work, if they are smart enough to also burn allomantic steel and have steel lines/bubble warning them. Of course that can be sidestepped with obsidian arrows or aluminium guns.

 

Depends how far the range is on Allomantic steel, I guess.

 

Also by that logic shouldn't a steel feruchmist be able to artificially extent how long they can stay awake by tapping speed and as such tiring slower?

 

On the Coinshot+Nicroburst trick, I'm not sure that would work if the metal is both piercing skin and investd with a feruchmical charge.

 

Bands:

I'm not sure. That would make sense. If tapping mental speed makes you hungry, storing should keep you from getting hungry (well, make it slower). I'd expect something similar for physical speed.

 

On the last, Stormlight spoilers:

Shardblades can be pushed on with a Duralumin Push (so sayeth Brandon, though I think he said it would "probably" work), so I'd predict a Duralumin Push could handle a metalmind piercing you. Hard to say until crossover books are written, I guess.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Moogle

[king of nowhere]

Gold Compounders can't heal wounds caused by aluminum, so that's another easy way to kill Gold Compounders.

Where do you get that? In alloy of law, miles had an aluminium knife and, wanting to free his hands but lacking a pocket for it, stabbed the knife in his arm. He wouldn't have done so if he could not heal it. It was during the train fight. Unless maybe you intend that he could not heal while the aluminium blade was in him, but that's a small limitation.

 

Anyway, none of those compounding powers make you invincible and capable of ruling the word alone, but you can do it with the support of a small group of faithful people. Consider how many warlords can dominate a nation in the real world without any superpower. Now think how much more they could have done if they were steel compounders. They would certainly found enough people willing to be their lackeys to protect them while they sleep. they would only have to personally do the assassinations of enemy leaders.

 

Re: the dinamyte-slinging gold compounder: I doubt it's a wise idea. If a bullet hit one of the sticks you're carrying, it will set off. And then they will have to collect your pieces with a teaspoon. I don't think even gold compounding can fix that.

 

Re: rarity of steel ferrings: in shadows of self the population of elendel is given as five millions (or maybe it's the whole basin? not sure). So there should be a fair number of steel ferrings around, and passable chances of at least one compounder. certainly enough that wax - a man who dedicated his life to fighting metalborn criminal - or wayne or some of the policemen should know whether tapping steel can make your gun work faster.

 

Re: harmony would use the kandra to screw you up somehow: that's a good argument actually. I guess he would.

 

Re: bleeder was probably capable of pulling her stunts because she was kandra, so she could disregard most wounds: that's another good argument. Still, things like friction on the floor and the speed at which you can fire a gun or turn a lock should affect her more than that.

[Moogle]

Where do you get that? In alloy of law, miles had an aluminium knife and, wanting to free his hands but lacking a pocket for it, stabbed the knife in his arm. He wouldn't have done so if he could not heal it. It was during the train fight. Unless maybe you intend that he could not heal while the aluminium blade was in him, but that's a small limitation.

 

I was thinking more aluminum bullets. The aluminum has to stay in the wound. WoB:

Kurkistan

What would happen if you shot a Thug with an aluminum bullet or stabbed him with an aluminum knife?—[Note: Brandon initially misunderstands the question, as you shall see.]

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, that's a good question. And, um.. the wound would not be able to heal around the aluminum, but once the aluminum came out, and was gone from the system, they would be okay.

Kurkistan

Wait, is that a Bloodmaker, not a Thug?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, you're talking about Thu— Oh, okay. Yeah, ummm... It would work similarly, but it really wouldn't really have a huge effect on them.

Kurkistan

Ah, okay. 'Cause Peter was implying that there was some weird aluminum interaction with Thugs.

Brandon Sanderson

What was he thinking of... There is some weird interaction but—

Kurkistan

< rudely interrrupts > In the wedding scene [in Alloy of Law] Wax thinks that they would have aluminum bullets to deal with Thugs and I was like "oh that's a typo" and Peter was like "oh no it's not..."

Brandon Sanderson

No no... That would just be—it's like I said: healing it until the bullet is gone. It's just the same as the Bloodmaker.

Kurkistan

< Various pleasantries from me apologizing for all the confusion >

(source)

 

They don't really optimize for it, but I imagine you could coat your knife with "aluminum poison", ie. some sort of paste in which you put a bunch of aluminum dust. It's fixable (just carve a big enough of chunk flesh out) but not quickly. Also possible would be an aluminum-coated grenade where the shrapnel is aluminum.

 

But the good old aluminum bullet in the heart is where I'd start, since they apparently have that already made. I'm pretty sure you can make aluminum bullets which splinter on impact, too.

 

Re: bleeder was probably capable of pulling her stunts because she was kandra, so she could disregard most wounds: that's another good argument. Still, things like friction on the floor and the speed at which you can fire a gun or turn a lock should affect her more than that.

 

Agreed. I don't think it makes sense that a gun should be able to fire faster in her hands. There's the "clothes are Cognitively you" argument, but there's a distinct difference between metal piercing your flesh and metal you're wearing.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Moogle

[natc]

The knife in arm still makes sense for Miles since he can't feel pain and it won't kill him immediately.

[Stormgate]

Plus, he was just the teensiest bit insane.

[CaptainRyan]

 

Agreed. I don't think it makes sense that a gun should be able to fire faster in her hands. There's the "clothes are Cognitively you" argument, but there's a distinct difference between metal piercing your flesh and metal you're wearing.

 

Hello everyone, just dropping by to make a quick first post. If you google for "fastest revolver shots" or something along those lines you can find plenty of videos of people using single, and double, action revolvers to fire 6 - 8 shots in under a second. Furthermore, you can also see videos of people using speed loaders to reload a revolver and fire ANOTHER 6/8 rounds all within 2-3 seconds. [That is not a typo or hyperbole btw]

I do not think using Feruchemical steel (or compounding it) does anything to speed up a gun and, as the videos you can search for show, it is entirely possible to use a revolver to fire rapidly without any enhancement to the gun or the individual. I hope this dispells some of the confusion surrounding the opening scene of SoS.

[king of nowhere]

Hello everyone, just dropping by to make a quick first post. If you google for "fastest revolver shots" or something along those lines you can find plenty of videos of people using single, and double, action revolvers to fire 6 - 8 shots in under a second.

Ok, good job. So there is no inconsistency there. still the friction of the shoes with the floor remains a problem, and even without that speed is still incredibly more powerful than anything else, but at least there doesn't seem to be any blatant inconsistency in the way the magic works.

[DrakeMarshall]

It should be noted that Sazed possibly changed the nature of feruchemy after his ascension to make stand-alone powers more functional, for example making one's body be able to bear the load of increased weight. Sazed had to tap strength to support his new weight when doing this, but Wax notices he does not need to do this. However, this is just some random speculation.

 

On another note, I feel I should note that friction is not one of the issues with steelrunning (there may well be others, for example trying not to be burnt up by air resistance). The total work exerted by friction should be the same regardless of velocity. Kinetic friction applies a constant force, and this occurs over the same distance... So going faster should not make you require a different amount of friction.

 

This makes sense, because kinetic friction is basically caused by small collisions on a not perfectly smooth surface, so moving faster won't change the number of collisions.

[CaptainRyan]

On another note, I feel I should note that friction is not one of the issues with steelrunning (there may well be others, for example trying not to be burnt up by air resistance). The total work exerted by friction should be the same regardless of velocity. Kinetic friction applies a constant force, and this occurs over the same distance... So going faster should not make you require a different amount of friction.

 

This makes sense, because kinetic friction is basically caused by small collisions on a not perfectly smooth surface, so moving faster won't change the number of collisions.

 

I have to disagree. Have you tried making a turn in a car going 10mph (16kph) compared to 100mph (160kph)? It is noticeably more difficult at a higher speed. Now imagine you are running and your legs have to bear the increased force of trying to turn in a hallway at 100mph... *legs snap like a twig and/or you just slide directly into the wall [splat!] instead of making your turn*

 

That being said I, personally, believe that storing speed also *waves hands in a magical way* stores the needed friction to use that speed. Or something similar. Sanderson sticks to physics as much as he can but never at the expense of a good story/ability.

[natc]

Perhaps all the physics-breaking required secondary powers needed to steelrun is part of why it's so "difficult" to store . . . less of the speed taken from yourself is actually used to speed you up.

[DrakeMarshall]

I have to disagree. Have you tried making a turn in a car going 10mph (16kph) compared to 100mph (160kph)? It is noticeably more difficult at a higher speed. Now imagine you are running and your legs have to bear the increased force of trying to turn in a hallway at 100mph... *legs snap like a twig and/or you just slide directly into the wall [splat!] instead of making your turn*

 

That being said I, personally, believe that storing speed also *waves hands in a magical way* stores the needed friction to use that speed. Or something similar. Sanderson sticks to physics as much as he can but never at the expense of a good story/ability.

 

This is because I think you will find cars are much better at accelerating forwards than they are at turning. It takes proportionally more energy to change the direction of a larger velocity vector, yes. But if you are tapping speed, you have that much more energy to expend on applying forwards force and angular force. Friction wouldn't for some reason apply less of an impulse simply because velocity has increased. If you are saying one would not be able to get the traction necessary to turn, or in some other way that they would not have enough force to do so, that is incorrect. You certainly wouldn't just slide into the wall and fail to turn, this violates the laws of physics.

 

However, this isn't to say that steelrunning doesn't have problems. There is one huge problem with steel running mechanics that loosely ties in to these forces. The human body is not meant to take such strong forces. While one would certainly be able to exert the necessary torque through friction to make a tight turn, this would still probably snap their legs. For that matter, simply accelerating to the speed that bleeder did just in a straight line would probably break your legs as they pounded into the ground with absurd levels of force (normal running puts 4x the force of body weight on each leg, this would be far, far worse). Not to mention that moving at such a speed puts you in some danger of significant burns due to air resistance. Also, if you accidentally brushed up against a solid surface while enhancing your speed, you would probably break something.

[king of nowhere]

demonstration that you need more friction to steelrun:

 

so, the friction force is equal to k*F, where k is the friction coefficient and F is the force applied perpendicularly to the surface.

 

When you try to turn or accelerate or brake, you are exerting a force diagonally on the floor. the perpendicular component of that force works towards friction, and that friction applies in the opposite sense of the motion and it is the speed that lets you change direction.

 

As you can see, if you stomp harder, you'll exert more friction, and you will have more control. Except that there is one limiting factor: your own wheight. If the force  you are applying perpendicularly to the floor exceed your mass*gravity, you will jump in the air. so, calling your wheight W and the gravity g, the maximum amount of force you can get from the floor is  k*W*g. And the maximum acceleration you can get from the floor is k*W*g/W=k*g. This is the reason you can't run on ice without skidding, no matter how strong or fast you are. And this is the reason astronauts on the moon didn't run but jumped.

[DrakeMarshall]

That would be because k is

 

demonstration that you need more friction to steelrun:

 

so, the friction force is equal to k*F, where k is the friction coefficient and F is the force applied perpendicularly to the surface.

 

When you try to turn or accelerate or brake, you are exerting a force diagonally on the floor. the perpendicular component of that force works towards friction, and that friction applies in the opposite sense of the motion and it is the speed that lets you change direction.

 

As you can see, if you stomp harder, you'll exert more friction, and you will have more control. Except that there is one limiting factor: your own wheight. If the force  you are applying perpendicularly to the floor exceed your mass*gravity, you will jump in the air. so, calling your wheight W and the gravity g, the maximum amount of force you can get from the floor is  k*W*g. And the maximum acceleration you can get from the floor is k*W*g/W=k*g. This is the reason you can't run on ice without skidding, no matter how strong or fast you are. And this is the reason astronauts on the moon didn't run but jumped.

It is certainly true that there is an upper bound to how much you can accelerate on a given surface, as seen in ice (although I have to say the moonwalking example isn't really the same situation as that).

However, first of all, this doesn't vary from turning to forwards acceleration. Both would require friction to the same degree.

Second of all, I think you will find that this upper bound on a regular surface is significant. This may prove to be a difficulty if you tap a massive amount of speed, but I don't think you can assert that bleeder's speed would touch upon this frictional upper bound. Note also that friction in this case does not actually limit speed in any way, merely acceleration.

[king of nowhere]

 

 

It is certainly true that there is an upper bound to how much you can accelerate on a given surface, as seen in ice (although I have to say the moonwalking example isn't really the same situation as that).

However, first of all, this doesn't vary from turning to forwards acceleration. Both would require friction to the same degree.

Second of all, I think you will find that this upper bound on a regular surface is significant. This may prove to be a difficulty if you tap a massive amount of speed, but I don't think you can assert that bleeder's speed would touch upon this frictional upper bound. Note also that friction in this case does not actually limit speed in any way, merely acceleration.

well, it would also affect speed because there is friction with the air at some point, but i don't know how relevant that gets at those speeds. Anyway, there is the scene where bleeder is pretending that she's trying to kill the governor, and she breaks into the safe room, and wax goes in a couple seconds later at most, and finds the clothing of bleeder ahead in the escape tunnel. so in those couple of seconds of accelerted speed, bleeder run to the end of the tunnel, stopped, changed dress, run back, shot the bodyguard, then took the place of the governor. that scene stretches a fair bit the laws of physics. Everything else is basically fine.

[DrakeMarshall]

Yes... Well at a time frame like that there are some inconsistencies.

Perhaps steelrunning works by actually impacting time, not necessarily just physical speed...?

I just hope steel compounding is a rare ability.

[natc]

Very minor BoM spoiler on the matter of rarity of comounder combinations (seriously, it's not plot relevant at all, it's just there. But some people can be bothered by that):

According to the woman who seems to be Khriss, Wax is one of the only three Crasher twinborn (allomantic steel + feruchemical iron) to have ever existed.

I think that speaks volumes for specific combinations of abilities. Allomancy isn't rare enough to be extremely unusual but is far from common, and feruchemical blood is likely even weaker due to the breeding programs prior, and would only reliably occur in relatively pure Terris bloodlines that are rarer still.

So being twinborn at all is difficult, and there are 256 possible twinborn powersets. Being a steel compounder would take a huge stroke of luck.