Corax

Safehands

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So, this is silly, but I can't help but wonder...

 

In Vorin cultures, is the safehand always the left hand, or can it be just the off-hand? I think I recall a brief WoB about it simply being the left hand, but then what's a Vorin leftie to do? I wonder if the Vorin culture has any superstitions about left-handed people.

 

...Thoughts? 

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I think it's possible that Vorin culture is the kind where either everyone is right-handed naturally, or alternatively lefties go full rebel and put on a glove, or alternatively leftie-women are forced to learn everything right-handed. The last one was a trend for children in our universe after all, I think it's not unrealistic to believe that Vorin society dictate that women do everything right-handed, no matter how difficult. However, we don't actually know any left-handed Vorin women, or the ones we do know do everything right-handed anyway. 

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All lefty women are automatically known as shameless hussies. 

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Brandon has confirmed that the safe hand is always the left hand, and that it is rough on lighteyed lefties (not so much darkeyes because they can just wear a glove).

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I wonder how hard it would really be to learn how to use the other hand.  I mean if you were told you had to from childhood,  I'd imagine it would feel unnatural,  but with practice.....  Anyone have any actual experience with that?  It's got my curiosity. 

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Roshar....where fingerless gloves double as lingerie..... :wub:  :wub:  :wub:  :wub:  

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Safehands have always been weird, learning that they are always on the left hand makes me wonder about the connection to the knights radiant and why the left hand is important to be gloved. We see that Jasnah made a glove while in the cognitive realm and while she was racing to figure out information to try to save the world she also happened to make a glove out of some random material, that she probably soulcast,  Jasnah doesn't  strike me as a person who would make a non functioning garmet when she doesn't need to unless she needs it. I think the reason for the safe hand was to protect the soul casters hand as it leaves the physical realm and travels in the cognitive realm. Wonder why the left hand works though might be greater energy output on one side as compared to another?  

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I wonder how hard it would really be to learn how to use the other hand.  I mean if you were told you had to from childhood,  I'd imagine it would feel unnatural,  but with practice.....  Anyone have any actual experience with that?  It's got my curiosity. 

 

Forcing lefties to learn to do stuff with their right hand is actually a practice that was really common in our world until relatively recently.  Particularly in cultures that write left-to-right.  If they start early enough kids can adapt to pretty much anything.

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Forcing lefties to learn to do stuff with their right hand is actually a practice that was really common in our world until relatively recently.  Particularly in cultures that write left-to-right.  If they start early enough kids can adapt to pretty much anything.

 

That's not exactly true.... I'm a lefty. My aunt was a lefty at a time where children were being hit if they used their left hand for anything (the hand of the devil). She has been forced to write with her right hand and the experience has been traumatizing. No, she didn't adapt nor did she ever develop a decent handwriting with her other hand. She would always, naturally, try to write with the left hand, despite having been chastised for years for using it.

 

Eventually, my grand-mother got mad and yelled at the school's teacher to end it. Times were starting to change, but I'd say that no, natural lefty don't "adapt". Those who were forced to use their right hand never develop the same dexterity they would have had, they end up being labeled negatively as poor at drawing, poor at hand-writing due to being forced to use the wrong hand.

 

A young left-handed woman in Alethkar would be seriously disadvantaged. 

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Interesting. You always hear of people who become ambidextrous after suffering and injury to their dominant hand. It never seemed like it was that much of a difficulty for these people.

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Interesting. You always hear of people who become ambidextrous after suffering and injury to their dominant hand. It never seemed like it was that much of a difficulty for these people.

 

I supposed you would develop some level of dexterity if you were to lose your predominant hand. For myself, I can't even writes my letters with my right hand, so I dunno how far I could push were I forced to. I can certainly attest I would never be anywhere close to my current level.

 

I'd be interesting if Brandon were to introduce a left-handed young woman forced to use her less apt hand.

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Safehands have always been weird, learning that they are always on the left hand makes me wonder about the connection to the knights radiant and why the left hand is important to be gloved. We see that Jasnah made a glove while in the cognitive realm and while she was racing to figure out information to try to save the world she also happened to make a glove out of some random material, that she probably soulcast,  Jasnah doesn't  strike me as a person who would make a non functioning garmet when she doesn't need to unless she needs it. I think the reason for the safe hand was to protect the soul casters hand as it leaves the physical realm and travels in the cognitive realm. Wonder why the left hand works though might be greater energy output on one side as compared to another?

I think Jasnah covering her safehand in the Cognitive realm has more to do with propriety than anything spiritual. She is, after all, a princess, and she would have been expected to be proper from a very young age.things like always wearing a covering her safehand were likely just second nature to her.

I suspect that the reason for safehands are less spiritual and more mundane. It was another way to try and keep women away from Shardblades. We know there were female KR who fought; now women don't fight. Yhe male arts are the ones that involve weapons. Only being able to use one hand would put anyone at a disadvantage during a fight.

Does anyone remember if the women in Dalinar's visions have their safehands covered? That could help us figure out when it started, if not why.

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Interesting. You always hear of people who become ambidextrous after suffering and injury to their dominant hand. It never seemed like it was that much of a difficulty for these people.

Though of course, it may be in this case that we only hear of the success stories.

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My mother is also a natural lefty that attended a school were teachers would hit you with rulers until you learned better. She calls herself left handed, writes with her right hand, and is rather resentful of her schooling in the matter.

I suspect that the ability to learn to write with an off hand depends on the person and circumstance.

As a lefty, i have wondered how left handed women handled this in roshar as well.

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Knowing that all musical pursuits are classified as female in Vorin countries, how do they manage to play an instrument using only one hand?

Percussion might be possible, but pretty much any other musical instrument I know requires the fingers on both hands to play decently.

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That's not exactly true.... I'm a lefty. My aunt was a lefty at a time where children were being hit if they used their left hand for anything (the hand of the devil). She has been forced to write with her right hand and the experience has been traumatizing. No, she didn't adapt nor did she ever develop a decent handwriting with her other hand. She would always, naturally, try to write with the left hand, despite having been chastised for years for using it.

 

Eventually, my grand-mother got mad and yelled at the school's teacher to end it. Times were starting to change, but I'd say that no, natural lefty don't "adapt". Those who were forced to use their right hand never develop the same dexterity they would have had, they end up being labeled negatively as poor at drawing, poor at hand-writing due to being forced to use the wrong hand.

 

A young left-handed woman in Alethkar would be seriously disadvantaged. 

 

My apologies, I should have been more clear that some children /could/ adapt but that not all of them would, the way I phrased it made it seem like a given when that is far from the case.  I strongly disagree with your use of "never" however, it is possible (but difficult) for lefties to become proficient with their right-hand, or even ambidextrous.

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Knowing that all musical pursuits are classified as female in Vorin countries, how do they manage to play an instrument using only one hand?

Percussion might be possible, but pretty much any other musical instrument I know requires the fingers on both hands to play decently.

 

It's fair to assume that Roshar doesn't have all of our own instruments. Playing any sort of piece on the piano would be impossible. We do know that Rosharans have the zither and pipes (both of which Shallan can play), which could conceivably be played with the right hand where the left plays only a minor role. Wit has a flute, which would be difficult to play one-handed, so it's possible the safehand is used for rhythm or holding an instrument, rather than actually using it - pulling strings for example on a zither. 

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It's fair to assume that Roshar doesn't have all of our own instruments. Playing any sort of piece on the piano would be impossible. We do know that Rosharans have the zither and pipes (both of which Shallan can play), which could conceivably be played with the right hand where the left plays only a minor role. Wit has a flute, which would be difficult to play one-handed, so it's possible the safehand is used for rhythm or holding an instrument, rather than actually using it - pulling strings for example on a zither. 

and yet another possibility is that there are some instruments that are not played in mixed company because they do require the safehand.

and then you could hypothesize about modifying various instruments to be played via pedals instead of strummed or fingered by the safehand...

but that would still be difficult since most right handed people are more dexterous with their left fingers.  Think about guitar players. Fret with left, strum or pick with right.

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Probably the instruments are played with the pouch of the safehand over them, so you can use your hand without showing it. That is alittle bit difficult, because the cloth might change the tune, but with the right design (of instrument as well as the safehand-pouch) it is possible.

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I can't pull it up right now, but in WoK, Shallan recognizes a bow like the one used for stringed instruments.

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My apologies, I should have been more clear that some children /could/ adapt but that not all of them would, the way I phrased it made it seem like a given when that is far from the case.  I strongly disagree with your use of "never" however, it is possible (but difficult) for lefties to become proficient with their right-hand, or even ambidextrous.

 

I think it would be more rigorously exact to state that, on a scale ranging from "left-handed" to "right-handed" some people gravitate more towards the center than others. As a result, those closer to the center are more likely to adapt to a world where their favored hand is discriminated. Those evolving closer to the edges, such as my aunt or myself, would have a harder time and likely wouldn't develop an equivalent dexterity.

 

It should also be said left-handed individuals, on average, are more apt with their right hand than right-handed people are with their left hand. A consequence of the world being designed for the right-handed individuals. It is safe to assume Alethi people would not differ on that matters, but a young left-handed women would be seriously disadvantaged. 

 

It would be interesting to know if left-handed young men are disadvantaged in the same way... What of Ardents who do learn how to read? Are young male Ardents forced to use the right hand systematically? Has Alethkar even acknowledge there was such thing as lefties?

 

It'd be great to have the POV of a left-handed character. So far, all of our main have been defined as right-handed.

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Where/when does this tradition originate? Is there any correlation between it and males not being allowed to read or wright? They are both imposed handy caps one physical the other mental. It seems like some one at some point instituted these traditions as a means of control or subjugation.

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Its from an in world book(Arts and Majesty or something like that) that says that women do the jobs that require one hand, men do the ones that require two. In WoR, they bring up horse riding, and I'd imagine it requires two hands. But, horses weren't well known, so women and men can do that job. Strange well for sexism to evolve, but its fascinating.

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That's right ok so is it something the ardents started during Hierocracy? Or were they doing that before than? Or something that slowly evolved over time?

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I found a WoB:

BRANDON SANDERSON

So that essay he told us about? The one that defined masculine arts as being ones with two hands and feminine needing only one? That was in order to let men secure power over Shardblades.

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