Dalinar's Flashback Chapter from Oathbringer

[Chaos Adonalsium]

Alright thanks. I don't agree all characters are wholly unlikable, I simply wondered about the meaning of each words and as to whether they could actually be used to define the characters. Mopey didn't sound so terrible.

This being said, I definitely do not enjoy the mood on the forum right now.

Whoever has been pestering me with downvotes, please PM me. If a Mod is reading this, please intervene. Every day I get a flaming -1: considering the current mood on the forum, my posts hardly are the most offending ones to be found.

So please someone make it stop.

What do you want me to do? Read the minds of the multiple people and tell them to like your posts more?

There will be a post describing effective uses of downvotes, but downvoting because someone didn't like a thing is okay.

I am sorry. If posts get a downvotes that is equalized out, the system is working as intending. Never think of these as personal attacks on you. I don't know, read what you wrote and see if there is another way things can be phrased. It may be something very innucuous, that you are rubbing various people the wrong way.

I now am considering this off topic, maxal, and will hide future posts on the matter. You take downvotes extremely seriously and you need to relax quite a bit.

You should not be taking this so seriously. Your posts net positively. That indicates your contributions are well liked. That's where the story ends. And no one needs to reveal their reasoning, either. I am not going to go PM people and demand they tell me why a post rubbed them the wrong way. They are not attacking you, personally. Because no one has repeatedly downvotes you.

This post we will make regarding reputation will be posted soon. Please stand by. This will enumerate a large list of reasonable reasons there could be to downvote a thing that should not have a person think that someone is out to get them. Maybe they were just mildly irked and don't feel like writing a long response about it.

In any case, let's get this back on track. This is off topic.

[Michael Portz Silent Gatherer]

I apologize!

 

As was pointed out by several people to me, the post was inconsiderate.

 

It was not meant to hurt people. 

 

The levity I felt writing this apparently did not transfer, bear with me. I love all of the characters mentioned, in the end. But while reading their povs each one of them put me on the edge in one scene or the other. And I think this is mostly due to Brandon writing them like real teenagers with all their normal problems, and their own very-special ones added. While my children where in their age, I was much more patient; and I hope I will be again, when possible grandchildren pass this age.

 

 

Another wonderful depiction of a wholly unlikeable youth by Brandon ... he just piles them up ... singleminded whiny David from Steelheart, mopey Kaladin, bratty Shallan, plain crazy Renarin ... 

 

 

EDIT 160109: another typo ... *SIGH*

Edited January 9, 2016 by Atastor

[The Ninja Yodeler Forescout]

I apologize!

As was pointed out by several people to me, the post was inconsiderate.

It was not meant to hurt people.

The levity I felt writing this apparently did not transfer, bear with me. I love all of the characters mentioned, in the end. But while reading their povs each one of them put me on the edge in one scene or the other. And I think this is mostly due to Brandon writing them like real teenagers with all their normal problems, and their own very-special ones added. While my children where in their age, I was much more patient; and I hope I will be again, when possible grandchildren pass this age.

EDIT 160109: another typo ... *SIGH*

Well, true, it does come off as kinda d*ckish . But the comment about Kal being mopey, and Shallan willfully trying to block out anything that may make her uncomfotable,is true. My ridicule algorithms kick in when she starts making little hand signs to ward off evil when Jasnah talks about the almighty not being real Edited January 9, 2016 by The Ninja Yodeler

[Garfield Skaa]

 I like the contrast. Maybe you just have to have suffered the type of depression Kal has to understand that hes not just mopey.

 

 

Nah, Kaladin has had seasonal depressions all his life (means he had considerable periods of time where he was not depressed) and recently went through some serious traumatic experiences. I would rather call him a PTSD sufferer right now, not the typical clinically depressed.

Kaladin lost his brother, was betrayed and enslaved by Amaram, several times beaten to unconsciousness, forced into risking his life twice a week while again seeing friends die, and then put under the strain of being responsible for the life of Dalinar s family and the training of the ex bridgemen while figuring out his strange new abilities, training to fight shardblades, riding etc so he probably had 16 hours work days.

 

Clinical depression is when you get depressed without a plausible drastic outer cause for the mood problem. Kaladin had plenty of reasons to lose his emotional balance over the course of the past year.

[The Ninja Yodeler Forescout]

Nah, Kaladin has had seasonal depressions all his life (means he had considerable periods of time where he was not depressed) and recently went through some serious traumatic experiences. I would rather call him a PTSD sufferer right now, not the typical clinically depressed.

Kaladin lost his brother, was betrayed and enslaved by Amaram, several times beaten to unconsciousness, forced into risking his life twice a week while again seeing friends die, and then put under the strain of being responsible for the life of Dalinar s family and the training of the ex bridgemen while figuring out his strange new abilities, training to fight shardblades, riding etc so he probably had 16 hours work days.

Clinical depression is when you get depressed without a plausible drastic outer cause for the mood problem. Kaladin had plenty of reasons to lose his emotional balance over the course of the past year.

You know what, youre exactly right. He does have seasonal depression. Not clinical depression. Stkll doesnt mean you undedstand the feeling of those two types of depression. But you are correct on the definitions. Okay maybe not so ignorant as I previously thought. Edited January 9, 2016 by The Ninja Yodeler

[maxal Dawnshard]

Actually, I would like to point out Kaladin shows signs of suffering from depression prior to Tien's death. If we re-read his flashback chapters, he does not come across as a bouncily happy youth, but one battling with his mood more often than not. I am certainly not an expert, but the rational is there.

[The Ninja Yodeler Forescout]

Actually, I would like to point out Kaladin shows signs of suffering from depression prior to Tien's death. If we re-read his flashback chapters, he does not come across as a bouncily happy youth, but one battling with his mood more often than not. I am certainly not an expert, but the rational is there.

Yeah, but wouldnt that count as the seasonal depression, like Garfield said? He always said he was fine at other times other than the weeping, which is when he needed Tien to brighten his mood. Sounds like seasonal to me.

Btw, Garfield, I apologize for my previous posts. Even though I dont believe I was wrong, I may have been a teeny bit agressive after reading your post. Your opinions are your opinions, and I DO suppose you are entitled to them. Muh bad. Rubix is right. Just gonna back away from it.

[Garfield Skaa]

Actually, I would like to point out Kaladin shows signs of suffering from depression prior to Tien's death. If we re-read his flashback chapters, he does not come across as a bouncily happy youth,

 

 

Frankly, in the flahsback chapters to Kaladin's early years we always get to see him during times when some kind of trouble is brewing for him or his beloved family. It is mentioned that Kaladin feels quite miserable every year through the weeping weeks and his brother helped him considerably to get through these. The rest is situations that wouldn't be easy or happy for any teenager. After the death of the old citylord he is isolated and has no friends, his family is living in a situation of oppression and isolation, his father urges him to become a surgeon to enable him to escape the life in Hearthstone. Would you feel in general happy and relaxed growing up like that?

Edited January 9, 2016 by Garfield

[maxal Dawnshard]

I think it has been confirmed via several WoB Kaladin has clinical depression on top of seasonal depression: the boundary between the two may be slightly dwarf. It could be it started as seasonal than morphed into clinical, I am not a medical expert, but I have seen Brandon mentioned it often enough to state it likely is canon even if the text at hand does not necessarily allow us to conclude it without any doubt.

 

I may wrong about the interpretation of the WoB though: this always is tricky business after all. 

[The Ninja Yodeler Forescout]

Frankly, in the flahsback chapters to Kaladin s early years we always get to see him during times when some kind of trouble is brewing for him or his family. It is mentioned that Kaladin feels quite miserable every year through the weeping weeks and his brother helped him considerably to get through these. The rest is situations that wouldn t be easy or happy for any teenager.

Well, kind of. Not much BAD realky happened before the Brightlords passing and Roshones arrival. Before that, people were wary of his father, but they respected his ability. They didnt pay him in emerald broams or anything, but they did donate more than enough food for them to live comfortably off of. I mean he was poised to marry the Brightlords daughter, so things couldn't have been that bad for Kal.

It wasnt until Roshone started making their lives hell by intimidating the townspeople into not giving them anything ( because he suspected Kals dad, Lerin or Lurin or somesuch, of stealing all those spheres. Or rather not giving them back), that it started getting bad bad for them. The example being their friends and neighbors trying to assault them and steal the spheres.

[Rubix Honorspren]

This is not a thread about Kaladin's mental health. Keep this thread on topic.

[The Ninja Yodeler Forescout]

This is not a thread about Kaladin's mental health. Keep this thread on topic.

TRUTH. Will do good sir.

[The Ninja Yodeler Forescout]

Alright thanks. I don't agree all characters are wholly unlikable, I simply wondered about the meaning of each words and as to whether they could actually be used to define the characters. Mopey didn't sound so terrible. 

 

This being said, I definitely do not enjoy the mood on the forum right now. 

 

Whoever has been pestering me with downvotes, please PM me. If a Mod is reading this, please intervene. Every day I get a flaming -1: considering the current mood on the forum, my posts hardly are the most offending ones to be found.

 

So please someone make it stop.

They dont understand its not a downvote for comments, but for rep.

[Stormgate Mistborn]

Is there a topic on Kaladin's mental health? Because if not, I would be happy to make one. I might not have much experience with the kind of stuff Kaladin goes through, but nobody said having information on a topic is required to make a thread on it.

[maxal Dawnshard]

Is there a topic on Kaladin's mental health? Because if not, I would be happy to make one. I might not have much experience with the kind of stuff Kaladin goes through, but nobody said having information on a topic is required to make a thread on it.

 

There's the Kaladin topic which tackled this issue, but it has gone sour and it is currently locked for moderation. 

[The Ninja Yodeler Forescout]

There's the Kaladin topic which tackled this issue, but it has gone sour and it is currently locked for moderation.

Edited January 9, 2016 by The Ninja Yodeler

[scifan Idrian Monk]

I for one can't wait to read Oathbringer... I don't always enjoy the flashbacks, but they do help flesh out the story... I'm hoping there will be more from Jasnah this time around...

 

We've read about the Black Thorn being a bad boy who didn't take anything from anyone... who will make you see his point of view with force if necessary... I don't think this will be a joy ride... I don't know that I'd call him evil... but I suspect we'll see he was somewhat brutal at times...

[The Ninja Yodeler Forescout]

I for one can't wait to read Oathbringer... I don't always enjoy the flashbacks, but they do help flesh out the story... I'm hoping there will be more from Jasnah this time around...

 

We've read about the Black Thorn being a bad boy who didn't take anything from anyone... who will make you see his point of view with force if necessary... I don't think this will be a joy ride... I don't know that I'd call him evil... but I suspect we'll see he was somewhat brutal at times...

Yeah, if he was evil, that archer shooting him from 300+ yards definitely wouldn't have been recruited. He would have been stabby stabby cut cutted. And we didnt actually SEE any of the families rounded up killed. I mean, its cold, but effective. Those soldiers were fighting to protect their Brightlord, and probably more important to them, their families.

So, from a strategic standpoint, I agree with his tactics.

[Rhaegar'Elin Idrian Monk]

Yeah, if he was evil, that archer shooting him from 300+ yards definitely wouldn't have been recruited. He would have been stabby stabby cut cutted. And we didnt actually SEE any of the families rounded up killed. I mean, its cold, but effective. Those soldiers were fighting to protect their Brightlord, and probably more important to them, their families.

So, from a strategic standpoint, I agree with his tactics.

 

I agree with what you have written.

I would also add that, before "judging" the Blackthorn we have to relate with his own culture.

I mean, from what we have seen, the entire Alethi society is based on war (for sake of victory and for sake of war itself). Storm, war is a pivotal concept even in the whole Religion and Afterlife!

 

And Dalinar is terrifyingly good at it and, also, he loves it (the war, the battle, the challenge). He doesn't beleague his foes but, instead, threatens them with hostages: ruthless, indeed, but also effective. He didn't kill families, he didn't rape woman: he simply used them at his own vantage, to end quickly the siege. I don't see it as a evil or despicable act but simply as the strategy of a boy who is very good in the art of war.

 

I repeat, maybe I'm a little biased. Dalinar is my favourite character so far and, usually, I tend to like characters that have a darker shade (and aren't always shown like positive model of good and virtues... a bit like Kaladin).

In short, I don't loath the Blackthorn, rather, from the very little I've read, I like him: I will enjoy his flashback if they will be like this. Of course, if he starts slaughtering children or betraying his own allies I will hate young Dalinar (but I hope it won't happen).

 

Finally, I would't exclude the hypothesis that this warlord act was his own way of cope with something (Navani loss, perhaps? Or something else?). I mean, what we know about young Dalinar? That he was the Blackthorn on battlefield and (maybe) drunked himself dead on the free time... hardly the actions done by someone who enjoys his life.

[natc Mistborn]

The Blackthorn struck me as a pragmatist; he certainly loves a challenge, but he doesn't handicap himself for it; he always goes for what he thinks is the efficient method to solve the problem. He even offers an enemy archer who had just tried to snipe him recruitment into his forces just because he was a remarkable shot. He round up hostages purely to produce a response in the enemy forces, and forbade looting until it was over. He plays his advantages whenever he could, and doesn't seem to have time for general Alethi (or Earth) chull-hole deeds.

The Blackthorn wasn't really despicable, just ruthless and thirsty for a good battle to the death. The one guy he shoved a spear into the heart of was technically a mercy kill if anything; he was storming done for anyway. If he was a man of cruelty he would've left him to die in agony. He tries to cut down on the blunt methods in WoK but as poorly as that worked out he instead took them to politics.

General wastage of human life, Blackthorn or Bondsmith, never really enters his character. Beyond enemies in battle of course (Kaladin's dad has a point on how stupid the notion of war is), but when presented with good reasons to not kill the guy he actually seeks alternatives. For all of being a hero to standard Alethi everywhere the Blackthorn is surprisingly . . . not too big of a jerk?

[Garfield Skaa]

We also have to take into account that Alethkar doesn't have a UN carta of acceptable warfare techniques. Taking hostages was a perfectly acceptable strategy in medieval Europe.

 

I would despise Dalinar if he had raped women or slaughtered civilians to shock the enemy into submission or something

[Stormgate Mistborn]

We also have to take into account that Alethkar doesn't have a UN carta of acceptable warfare techniques. Taking hostages was a perfectly acceptable strategy in medieval Europe.

 

I would despise Dalinar if he had raped women or slaughtered civilians to shock the enemy into submission or something

I agree. Regardless of what he does, if he has that on his record, then he can at best become slightly better than Straff Venture.

[Sun Bridgeman]

I guess it's safe to assume Dalinar is on Nalan's naughty list.

[Pathfinder Voidbringer]

I guess it's safe to assume Dalinar is on Nalan's naughty list.

From what I read, Dalinar didn't break any Alethi laws while at war. Why do you feel Nalan would try to get him?

[Dahak High Prelan]

Yeah i mean Gavilar confided in MR.T and Amaram rather than his two most trusted (Sadeas + Dalinar) during his Throne building days.

He kept this from his brother which must have taken some doing.

 

If you mean the various plotting shortly before Gavikar died, Dalinar had crawled into a bottle and was refusing to come out.