Dalinar's Flashback Chapter from Oathbringer

[Slaybalj]

 

Imagine if your parents suddenly said that you had to start dressing in tights and breeches and powdered wigs. And they vaguely said it was important and read passages from an 18th century etiquette book at you, which you didn't really understand. Every single one of your peers laughed at you. Their parents thought you were ridiculous. Even the oldest members of society don't remember a time when what you are doing was remotely traditional. You and your entire family are a laughing stock, and you're hearing whispered rumors that your family members should all lose their jobs and probably be carted off to asylums somewhere. 

 

You mean, like these? https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Rules_of_Civility_and_Decent_Behaviour_in_Company_and_Conversation

18th century etiquette, 'rules of civility and decent behavior in company and conversation' as transcribed by george washington.....

[junior]

Even better. But that's what I meant, it's all he's read.

 

Also, because I forgot to scratch my pet peeve about "decimate". Most of the time it's used, it's used to mean "devastate" - destroying a tenth of the enemy's army is not that much of a loss.

I'm not going to disagree about the meaning of the word. But soldiers in a pre-gunpowder army would have seen ten percent losses as quite serious. Keep in mind that in most battles, the majority of the killing didn't occur when the front lines were clashing. The two lines would clash and hammer each other until enough men in one of the lines decided that they were going to lose. Panic would then set in, and that line would collapse as everyone on that side attempted to flee. The victorious side would then attempt to run down the fleeing troops, and that's when the majority of the losses were frequently incurred.

On another note, this isn't the first time that we've seen Dalinar acting in such a brutally pragmatic fashion. His actions here remind me of his actions during his confrontation with Elhokar.

[muco]

I am more exited about reading the flashbacks than the story arc in book 3!!

 

Dalinar was the norm of the times he lived in. Remember that he was one of the architects of uniting the Alethi. If the current generation of Alethi like Adolin were to do something similar, I am sure they would have as brutal and efficient.

 

Besides, there is no doubt Dalinar and Adolin are no where similar. Dalinar has the nasties but it looks to be aimed at a purpose. Comparison to older Sadias may be a bit far fetched when the blackthorn was more about action than the back channel dealings Sadias is expert at. 

[Argent]

I'm not going to disagree about the meaning of the word. But soldiers in a pre-gunpowder army would have seen ten percent losses as quite serious. Keep in mind that in most battles, the majority of the killing didn't occur when the front lines were clashing. The two lines would clash and hammer each other until enough men in one of the lines decided that they were going to lose. Panic would then set in, and that line would collapse as everyone on that side attempted to flee. The victorious side would then attempt to run down the fleeing troops, and that's when the majority of the losses were frequently incurred.

 

Fair enough. I admit I am not familiar with the details of these things.

 

 

Dalinar was the norm of the times he lived in. Remember that he was one of the architects of uniting the Alethi.

 

More the tool the architects used. It was really Gavilar pointing at an enemy army, and Dalinar stomping it to the dust.

[AerionBFII]

More the tool the architects used. It was really Gavilar pointing at an enemy army, and Dalinar stomping it to the dust.

 

You nailed it sir. I always thought of Gavilar as the charmer or the figurehead the glue that held it together, handsome, skilled in arms, charming. Sadeas was the cunning, crafty, plotting saboteur with the underhanded schemes and Dalinar was the relentless Warhound.

Intense and intimidating. If Gavilar couldn't charm you or Sadeas couldn't blackmail you. Dalinar would crush you.

 

I think he lived up to expectation that Brandon was building. Im confused by everybody who seems surprised by what he was like, we have been told what he was for two books now.. He was a product of the times he lived in, the guy who we see now is a man who is in his twilight years.

 

He has been a younger Brother, Warlord, Father, Widower, Leader and an adviser and is a legend. He has mellowed out and become wiser, he's learned he can untie a knot instead of cutting it in half with his sword.

 

 

Im so excited to see his transformation into the man he is..

[Stormgate]

I admit that Dalinar isn't different from expectations, but I far prefer the man he has become.

[DSC01]

In addition to his flashbacks giving us a lot of insight into Davilar's evolution as a character, I think we'll learn a lot about Gavilar. Just about everything that we know about him is based on other characters' opinions of him. The temptation is to think of him as being a forerunner of the proto-Radiants we're reading about now (especially since it seems that he was the first to see Honor's Highstorm visions, before Dalinar inherited them).

 

I suspect that things are going to be really turned upside down for us. Granted, we're probably going to get more information on him as a much younger man, but I hope that we find some things about his later actions, as well. It seems, from what we know right now, that at the end of his life, Gavilar started to become the kind of honorable guy that Dalinar has turned into. But Dalinar's transformation, in reaction to readings from The Way of Kings, is not necessarily identical to his brother's. We may even discover that Gavilar was basically another Amaram. It could be that he was actively trying to return the Voidbringers, and that his assassination, while a rash decision on the Parshendi's part, was arguably justifiable, with the fate of the world in the balance.

[AerionBFII]

Dalinar has put him on a pedestal, Navani seems to have a very different opinion on him.

I think he wasn't half as great as Dalinar thinks he is.... Most likely he was a little shady and was a little frightened by Dalinar.

[DSC01]

Yeah, you know, I wasn't even thinking of how Navani remembers him, which seems to be as a neglectful, cheating jerk. There is no indication that the sense of honor he discovered in his latter days altered that in any way. That, along with his apparent closeness to Amaram, suggests that the ideal visionary leader that Dalinar remembers is not what we're going to see when he shows up in flashbacks.

[muco]

Dalinar at one point thought of killing his brother for personal gain but supressed it.

Was it out of honour or love? looking at how Dalinar protects his extended family, he loved his brother, deeply.

 

And somehow I doubt Dalinar was simply a tool for his brother. He was no simpleton. He definitely understood what was happening, knew what was needed and went about it in the most efficient matter.

The point about Gavilar using Dalinar sounds about right but I am sure there is much more to the Dalinar and Gavilar dynamic than that.

I always go back to why Dalinar loved his brother so much. It can't have been one way street. Even in his limited POV, Gavilar seemed to love and trust his brother. His last dying message was not for his wife or kids but for his brother.

 

The other interesting information we will probably learn in this book is about Gavilar and Sadeas. We will get first hand information of their journeys as well, which is much needed I guess.

[AerionBFII]

Yeah i mean Gavilar confided in MR.T and Amaram rather than his two most trusted (Sadeas + Dalinar) during his Throne building days.

He kept this from his brother which must have taken some doing. I can't find the quote but Navani tells Dalinar that Gavilar is frightened of him or scared of him or something.

 

I think that was the peak of his life with the Thrill riding him, like we saw in the flashback.

[DSC01]

I bet it's going to world-shaking for Dalinar when he realizes how wrong he was about his brother. I can see him in a position where he finds that the people he is up against are on the same side that Gavilar was. In fact, if Dalinar, the Radiant, could be sent back in time to his brother's assassination, he might even discover that he now only opposes the Parshendi's methods of solving the Gavilar problem. I bet he would want to stop him, too.

[The Invested Beard]

One interesting thing I've noticed in the reaction to this (mostly outside this forum) is that people are missing that you are supposed to feel put off by how the man acts. To me it seems that Brandon has been laying the groundwork over both books that even though Alethi society sees itself as noble and serving their god by preparing to take back heaven, they are really abhorrent and off putting in ways that only those so tragically mislead can be. Odium has obviously corrupted a once great people and fooled them completely. Not sure of exactly how yet, but yeah, I don't think Brandon is necessarily saying, "Hey here's the Blackthorn, isn't he great?"

Edited January 5, 2016 by The Invested Beard

[Stormgate]

Odium does indeed reign.

[Garfield]

One interesting thing I've noticed in the reaction to this (mostly outside this forum) is that people are missing that you are supposed to feel put off by how the man acts.

 

 

But didnt we know that being the blackthorn, the most notorious of all the high princes must mean, that he was at least as ruthless as Sadeas and the most violent of the whole bunch? He was best friends with Sadeas at a time when they had a pretty similar attitude. Plus, this battle Thrill is a force that makes you singleminded about one thing: Killing what you feel needs to be killed, until it's all mowed down, it doesn't contain any moral values, when you have it, you turn into some kind of Terminator mode.

 

So yeah, it s a bit revolting, but it's not surprising, at least not to me.

[Rhaegar'Elin]

Maybe I'm a little biased, but I really liked this excerpt: I'm really hyped for Oathbringer.

It will be very interesting watching Dalinar changing from bloodthirsty, single minded warlord to the honorable man we have seen in the first two books.

 

Also, the Blackthorn is ruthless as expected but, like said in other posts above, he could have been very very worse.

[Stormgate]

Maybe I'm a little biased, but I really liked this excerpt: I'm really hyped for Oathbringer.

It will be very interesting watching Dalinar changing from bloodthirsty, single minded warlord to the honorable man we have seen in the first two books.

 

Also, the Blackthorn is ruthless as expected but, like said in other posts above, he could have been very very worse.

From what I've read, I don't like the Blackthorn. It will be interesting to see his change.

[Michael Portz]

Another wonderful depiction of a wholly unlikeable youth by Brandon ... he just piles them up ... singleminded whiny David from Steelheart, mopey Kaladin, bratty Shallan, plain crazy Renarin ... 

Edited January 8, 2016 by Rubix
Flaming will not be tolerated.

[DreamEternal]

Another wonderful depiction of a wholly unlikeable youth by Brandon ... he just piles them up ... singleminded whiny David from Steelheart, mopey Kaladin, bratty Shallan, plain crazy Renarin ...

... and now quick duck and cover from FeatherWriters ire ...

Almost everyone's ire, you mean. In this forum it is generaly considered bad form to downvote people, but I'd advice you to use some less... inconsiderate adjectives.

Some of us here share similar psychological conditions with characters like Renarin and Kaladin, and most of us like at least one of those four characters.

Edited January 7, 2016 by DreamEternal

[Stormgate]

Another wonderful depiction of a wholly unlikeable youth by Brandon ... he just piles them up ... singleminded whiny David from Steelheart, mopey Kaladin, bratty Shallan, plain crazy Renarin ... 

 

 

... and now quick duck and cover from FeatherWriters ire ...

I would also like to point out that Sanderson's characters tend to have personality flaws that have varying affects on their ability to act. This is by no means unheard of in literature, but it is the norm to give character flaws that have practical use in some situations, and Sanderson likes to go against themes and conventions that he has encountered previously. This may lead to having main characters that are, in some people's view, annoying in various ways. However, this opinion is likely not the norm, so please be respectful when referring to what may be our favorite characters in this manner. You might rub some people the wrong way.

[leinton]

Atastor, do you mean "youth that people can identify with"? Because a lot of people have thanked Brandon for writing these characters because they feel and act like we do. Believe it or not, but Kaladin is not mopey, but depressed, especially during the constantly cloudy season. Shallan isn't bratty, she dissociates and is still learning to use her skills (not just surgebinding, but also just politicking). Renarin isn't crazy, he's autistic and anxious, partially because he literally has powers that his religion says are the ultimate evil.

 

... that being said, I imagine a significantly smaller number of people will be able to relate to Young Dalinar.

[maxal]

The urban dictionary defines mopey as follows:

 

Mopey

Sad, sluggish, lonely, depressed.

He was feeling "mopey" today because he missed his friend.

I would thus say the qualitative does apply to Kaladin as he indeed is all of those things. It isn't a pejorative term, but an attribute. However stating Renarin is "lanky crazy" is judgmental as it ignores several facts which explains his behavior. Using the term "bratty" for Shallan also isn't accurate as per the urban dictionary: she has yet to throw a tantrum not to behave as a spoiled child.

 

bratty

Describes a child who is spoiled, whiny, throws tantrums, and always wants things his way.

You're lucky you don't have bratty little siblings like I do.

 

... that being said, I imagine a significantly smaller number of people will be able to relate to Young Dalinar.

 

Why would you assume it? Young Dalinar is arrogantly competitive and single-minded but living in world geared on warfare, it expresses itself through battle. Remove him from this context and put him into modern day and you have a prototype which is rather common. It is false to assume none of Brandon's readers would fall within this mold.

 

I thus disagree most readers wouldn't relate to Young Dalinar. I personally relate to Adolin, to a lesser extend Shallan and Navani, some of Dalinar (young and old), but not at all to Kaladin and Renarin. Depending on how Brandon presents young Dalinar, I suspect there are a fair number of readers who'd relate to him as well, though they may not be the most outspoken ones.

[DreamEternal]

The urban dictionary defines mopey as follows:

Mopey

Sad, sluggish, lonely, depressed.

He was feeling "mopey" today because he missed his friend.

In this context simple definitions are irrelevant. It is an adjective almost never used in a non-pejorative way, and there are many other words that could be used without risking to offend anybody. Edited January 7, 2016 by DreamEternal

[leinton]

The main problem with the post was honestly the declaration that the series of characters were "wholly unlikable". It is fine to not like a character, but it's wrong to make a declaration like that. It assumes that others unilaterally agree with you.

 

Also... Urban Dictionary is a terrible source.

[maxal]

The main problem with the post was honestly the declaration that the series of characters were "wholly unlikable". It is fine to not like a character, but it's wrong to make a declaration like that. It assumes that others unilaterally agree with you.

 

Also... Urban Dictionary is a terrible source.

 

Alright thanks. I don't agree all characters are wholly unlikable, I simply wondered about the meaning of each words and as to whether they could actually be used to define the characters. Mopey didn't sound so terrible. 

 

This being said, I definitely do not enjoy the mood on the forum right now. 

 

Whoever has been pestering me with downvotes, please PM me. If a Mod is reading this, please intervene. Every day I get a flaming -1: considering the current mood on the forum, my posts hardly are the most offending ones to be found.

 

So please someone make it stop.