Argent

Dalinar's Flashback Chapter from Oathbringer

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Ah, yes I highly doubt a Ryshadium would bond a man like Dalinar in this scene. I meant that in an unrelated manner, I guess I just always assumed Dalinar was born with Gallant much as I underestimated his bloodlust!

Hmm this could be true - Gavilar was recently given Shards and Dalinar is jealous, trying to convince himself he doesn't want them..

 

This is likely. The family's Shards would go to Gavilar and not Dalinar, that is certain. 

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On Shards: for me their amount is growing increasingly. In TWoK shard seemed to be extremely rare. At the time of WoR Elhokar has I think at least three sets of personal shards, and much more are mentioned.

Also it always seemed odd to me, that Sadeas had only one shardplate in his whole princedom before Amaram and Dalinar's payment. Wouldn't it be logical for him to get Shards from anywhere during Gavilar's conquest?

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On Shards: for me their amount is growing increasingly. In TWoK shard seemed to be extremely rare. At the time of WoR Elhokar has I think at least three sets of personal shards, and much more are mentioned.

Also it always seemed odd to me, that Sadeas had only one shardplate in his whole princedom before Amaram and Dalinar's payment. Wouldn't it be logical for him to get Shards from anywhere during Gavilar's conquest?

 

It WoR, it is said there are about 20-30 Shardbearers in camp. Among those, 2 are in the Kholin's camp, 4 if you include Elhokar and Gavilar's Shards. 

 

As for Sadeas, I believe his case is made to emphasis how hard it is to win Shards. It appears most are transferred from fathers to sons, not many are won through battles or dueling. Adolin is an anomaly. He's Alethkar Wonder Boy. Sadeas is more normal. He has a Plate, but never managed to win himself a Blade, most likely because he never wagered his Plate, much like Jakamav who was not allowed to do so as well. 

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Keep in mind that Adolin wins a whole bunch of Shards in WoR. By the end of WoR, the Kholins have the single largest collection of Shardbearers. Adolin won a Shardblade from Salinor (which went to Renarin), a set of Plate from Eranniv, another set of Plate from Elit, and then three new sets of Plate (Abrobadar, Jakamav and Relis) and two new Blades (Abrobadar and Relis). That's why there appear to be Shards all over the place in WoR. That's 3 Blades and 5 sets of Plate the Kholins gain over the course of WoR, in addition to the full set Adolin has and Dalinar's Plate, which is worn by Renarin. More emphasis is placed on Shards in WoR than in WoK, because Dalinar uses the disarming as a tool to put the other highprinces under his control. 

 

On top of all that is the Blade Taln wields when he's brought into the Kholin warcamp, which Dalinar uses to trick Amaram. 

 

Elhokar has his own personal set and his fathers I think, which I guess would stay in possession of the crown. And yeah, Sadeas says they're rare because he really wants a Blade (he eventually gets Oathbringer) and has always failed to get one in battle (the Parshendi only have one set of Shards left with Eshonai).

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Keep in mind that Adolin wins a whole bunch of Shards in WoR. By the end of WoR, the Kholins have the single largest collection of Shardbearers. Adolin won a Shardblade from Salinor (which went to Renarin), a set of Plate from Eranniv, another set of Plate from Elit, and then three new sets of Plate (Abrobadar, Jakamav and Relis) and two new Blades (Abrobadar and Relis). That's why there appear to be Shards all over the place in WoR. That's 3 Blades and 5 sets of Plate the Kholins gain over the course of WoR, in addition to the full set Adolin has and Dalinar's Plate, which is worn by Renarin. More emphasis is placed on Shards in WoR than in WoK, because Dalinar uses the disarming as a tool to put the other highprinces under his control. 

 

On top of all that is the Blade Taln wields when he's brought into the Kholin warcamp, which Dalinar uses to trick Amaram. 

 

Elhokar has his own personal set and his fathers I think, which I guess would stay in possession of the crown. And yeah, Sadeas says they're rare because he really wants a Blade (he eventually gets Oathbringer) and has always failed to get one in battle (the Parshendi only have one set of Shards left with Eshonai).

 

They are rare.. There are less than 10 full Shardbearers in camp... Adolin winning all of those Shards has made us think it was easy, but it isn't. The dueling spree was likely a historic event. We are not getting in book how exceptional Adolin is to have won so many and perhaps more importantly, how rare it is to have 16 years old full Shardbearers. There's a reason why Sadeas resent Adolin in particular: he thinks he is too young to have all of these Shards. He feels he has not earn them enough. Everyone feels Adolin did not deserve to have won his Blade (I wish we would get that flashback :( ): it is why they keep on dismissing him. They all think he got lucky, a feeling reinforced by the fact he was prevented to take on other serious duels shortly after due to his father adhering to the code.

 

Shards are hard to win. They fight about one, and often less, duel for Shards per year. Dueling is not a tested method to acquire Shards. The only ones foolish enough to wager theirs are the top-duelists trying to be named King's champion. Anybody else stays clear of it. So you have about 4-5 men willing to bet their Shards, including Adolin. 

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On Shards: for me their amount is growing increasingly. In TWoK shard seemed to be extremely rare. At the time of WoR Elhokar has I think at least three sets of personal shards, and much more are mentioned.

Also it always seemed odd to me, that Sadeas had only one shardplate in his whole princedom before Amaram and Dalinar's payment. Wouldn't it be logical for him to get Shards from anywhere during Gavilar's conquest?

You only get the Shards if you, personally, take them.  It's the Alethi way.  And without a Shardblade, Sadeas just doesn't have the capacity to defeat a Shardbearer.  His best bet is to find someone with just the Blade and shoot them a few times (But Grandbows are new, so not an option during the conquest).  And anyone with a Blade knows this, and will avoid him.  

 

Talking of the Alethi way, that's what struck me most about Dalinar here.  He's the epitome of Alethi.

 

Yeah, he does some pretty monstrous stuff, but is it really so unreasonable when compared to Sadeas' bridge crews?  It's established in Way of Kings that "journey before destination" is not an Alethi way of thought, and I think this chapter shows it.  Dalinar is all about the destination.  He'll do everything in his power to win.  

 

I'm not surprised that he and Gavilar were able to conquer the country.  And, honestly, I'm sure Adolin has a good idea of how it happened.  This isn't the sort of thing the Alethi would hide.  They revel in this sort of attitude.  

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I'm not surprised that he and Gavilar were able to conquer the country.  And, honestly, I'm sure Adolin has a good idea of how it happened.  This isn't the sort of thing the Alethi would hide.  They revel in this sort of attitude.  

 

There's a difference in "having an idea" and truly knowing. I doubt he was told how his father rounded up women and children (did you kill them Dalinar?) in order to enforce his win. He says, in his POV, how the older soldiers talk of the glory days, but likely they talk of the good part, the glory and skip over the darker parts. It usually is how history of the victorious go: you tale a one sided tale and that's the one I suspect Adolin has heard. Dalinar never seem to have had the "talk" with his eldest son and Adolin can't read. He also has this hero-worship complex when it comes to his father, so he likely only hears what he wants to hear. 

 

Adolin did not even know the truth about Gavilar's death: he did not know his father was drunk... Nobody told him.

 

Dalinar has kept many things from his sons. 

 

And yes, I do agree young Dalinar is not any worst than older Sadeas, but older Sadeas is presented as an antagonist... not a nice guy... while older Dalinar. This is so hard! I can't say enough how much I like this chapter. I have never been so exited upon reading flashbacks.

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There's a difference in "having an idea" and truly knowing. I doubt he was told how his father rounded up women and children (did you kill them Dalinar?) in order to enforce his win. He says, in his POV, how the older soldiers talk of the glory days, but likely they talk of the good part, the glory and skip over the darker parts. It usually is how history of the victorious go: you tale a one sided tale and that's the one I suspect Adolin has heard. Dalinar never seem to have had the "talk" with his eldest son and Adolin can't read. He also has this hero-worship complex when it comes to his father, so he likely only hears what he wants to hear. 

 

Adolin did not even know the truth about Gavilar's death: he did not know his father was drunk... Nobody told him.

 

Dalinar has kept many things from his sons. 

 

And yes, I do agree young Dalinar is not any worst than older Sadeas, but older Sadeas is presented as an antagonist... not a nice guy... while older Dalinar. This is so hard! I can't say enough how much I like this chapter. I have never been so exited upon reading flashbacks.

Sadeas is presented as an antagonist (Of Dalinar/Adolin) because of his target, not his actions.  I don't recall Adolin ever having any problem with how he acts (Especially not early on - He starts off very Alethi and only comes around to Dalinar's point of view with time).  

 

Also, I think there's a significant difference between Dalinar rounding up women and children, and Dalinar passing out while his brother was murdered.  The Alethi would think one is shameful.  It's not the one we'd find so repulsive.  

 

But yes, I do think that Adolin could well be lying to himself and only hearing what he wants to hear.  But if my maths is right, he was already a Shardbearer when Gavilar died, and (most likely) had already served with his father's spearmen.  So I think it's quite likely that he had some degree of experience of war against humans.  It's not as if his only experience is against the Parshendi.  He might never have seen the Blackthorn, as he says in WoK, but I think he's probably seen the same methods.  

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Sadeas is presented as an antagonist (Of Dalinar/Adolin) because of his target, not his actions.  I don't recall Adolin ever having any problem with how he acts (Especially not early on - He starts off very Alethi and only comes around to Dalinar's point of view with time).  

 

Also, I think there's a significant difference between Dalinar rounding up women and children, and Dalinar passing out while his brother was murdered.  The Alethi would think one is shameful.  It's not the one we'd find so repulsive.  

 

But yes, I do think that Adolin could well be lying to himself and only hearing what he wants to hear.  But if my maths is right, he was already a Shardbearer when Gavilar died, and (most likely) had already served with his father's spearmen.  So I think it's quite likely that he had some degree of experience of war against humans.  It's not as if his only experience is against the Parshendi.  He might never have seen the Blackthorn, as he says in WoK, but I think he's probably seen the same methods.  

 

Not exactly. Adolin disagrees with Sadeas war tactics from the start. He is uncomfortable with the use of live bridgemen and he prefers battle tactics that allows him to carve a safe path for his men. Adolin is heavily influenced by other perceptions as has a moral qualm at seeing people talk badly of his father. He thus want his father to get back out there and win gems so he could shut them all up. He also yearns to meet his childhood hero and is somehow discomfited he has missed his father's glory days for being a few years too young. However, he does not truly know how far his father's reputation goes: all he sees are the feats of glory, the grandeur and the mighty man respected by all... He sees a super-hero, a favored theme of Brandon's. He sees Superman and looks up to his father, at times, in a very childish way. He does the same with his aunt, which made me wonder what it was with Adolin and parental figures to make him yearn for them even through his adult years. Young adults his age have typically gotten rid of the whole hero-worship thing and don't want their parents to interfere to strongly within their affairs... which is strange as Adolin exhibit the opposite behavior.

 

All in all, we have strong inklings Adolin would not agree with the Blackthorn "methods". From his point-of-vue, his father was this great man who united a kingdom. Sure there was battle, but the only battles he ever knew were the ones on the Shattered Plains. While Adolin was a indeed full Shardbearer before Gavilar died, he also was a very young one who chose dueling as his Calling and not soldering. Considering the time frame, Adolin couldn't have won his Blade a very long time before the assassination.

 

Also, Adolin speaks of how he decided to become a soldier because he wanted to "heal" his father. He was crushed to see Dalinar being demolished by Gavilar's death, so he naively thought if he killed enough Parshendis, he may bring back the father he knows. So Adolin wasn't a soldier prior to Gavilar's death. The spearman phase likely happened on the Shattered Plains. Dalinar also comments on how he was saddened he had been forced to turn Adolin into a soldier as the boy did not naturally enjoy the warfare. As strange as it seems. of all Kholins, Adolin is the one who didn't want to become a soldier. He was reluctant, from his own admission.

 

So I'd say Adolin never saw warfare until he reached the Plains. He never warred against other human beings, only Parshendis which he perceived as the ultimate enemy as they killed his uncle. They may look human, but they are weird and they talk a language he can't understand, so in his head, they are likely just foes. They fight back bravely, so he doesn't bulk over the idea of killing them as he does with hunting. All in all, the wars he has fought are quite different then those Dalinar fought in his youth. Based on his reaction towards the end of WoR, I suspect he'd have a harder time destroying villages as his father did. In fact, I suspect he does not have the stomach for it.

 

Killing humanoid creatures guilty of treason is one thing. Killing scared human beings not knowing while they are attacked is another thing entirely. 

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BLACKTHORN! Wow young Dalinar is completely despicable. I've always liked how Brandon can make me hate a character then love them or vice versa. I cant wait for SA3. 

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Everyone's pretty much said my thoughts on Dalinar at this point, so I can only curse and swear that this flashback puts a big dampener on my speculation about Nergaoul at the minimum.  If he/she/it was able to influence things even that long ago, then it's pretty clear that the Unmade aren't necessarily absent from Roshar outside a Desolation as I was starting to wonder.

 

Hmf. ;)

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To add one more thing on Dalinar: I don't think old Dalinar would do anything other than kill or capture and interrogate an assassin; he certainly wouldn't presume the guy into joining his elite. Young Dalinar is quite flippant about assassination attempts, although that probably has something to do with his general arrogance (assassination attempts aren't a 'serious threat' to my life).

 

Also, I think old Dalinar also doesn't have an elite anymore; he had the Cobalt Guard in WoK, but I always assumed, since their primary purpose seems to be protecting Dalinar and his family (Dalinar eventually moves the Cobalt Guard to the field when Kaladin takes over as bodyguard), that they were more bodyguard than elite.

Edited by Cemci
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Along with arrogance I think some of the flippant attitude towards the assassin can be attributed to the general indestructible illusion of youth. Especially a privileged youth. More I think about it the more differences I see between Adolin and what we are seeing from young Dalinar even on a maturity level (assuming their ages are similar but I'd say unless you have kids male maturity levels are not progressed a lot between 20-25). I agree though if Szeth had been caught I do not think old Dalinar would have tried to convert him to the Cobalt Guard. 

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Along with arrogance I think some of the flippant attitude towards the assassin can be attributed to the general indestructible illusion of youth. Especially a privileged youth. More I think about it the more differences I see between Adolin and what we are seeing from young Dalinar even on a maturity level (assuming their ages are similar but I'd say unless you have kids male maturity levels are not progressed a lot between 20-25). I agree though if Szeth had been caught I do not think old Dalinar would have tried to convert him to the Cobalt Guard. 

 

The strangest thing is Adolin has often been described as being an immature character... probably because of his issues with courtships... The sad truth is Adolin is a every responsible and disciplined young man who is much more mature than his comrades within the same age range.

 

Young Dalinar was immature, brash, petulant, impetuous... Yeah, I agree, the difference is just not maturity, but everything else. I rest my case. I have been saying for a long time how different from the father the son was and theories calling them to be similar was being misguided.  

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Just read up on Genghis Khan on wikipedia... urgh.  Dalinar is an angel compared to him!

 

 

The Mongols' conquest, even by their own standards, was brutal. After the capital Samarkand fell, the capital was moved to Bukhara by the remaining men, while Genghis Khan ordered two of his generals and their forces to completely destroy the remnants of the Khwarezmid Empire, including not only royal buildings, but entire towns, populations, and even vast swaths of farmland. According to legend, Genghis Khan even went so far as to divert a river through the Khwarezmid emperor's birthplace, erasing it from the map.[citation needed]

 
 
Significant conquests and movements of Genghis Khan and his generals.
 
The Mongols attacked Samarkand using captured enemies as body shields. After several days only a few remaining soldiers, loyal supporters of the Shah, held out in the citadel. After the fortress fell, Genghis supposedly reneged on his surrender terms and executed every soldier that had taken arms against him at Samarkand. The people of Samarkand were ordered to evacuate and assemble in a plain outside the city, where they were killed and pyramids of severed heads raised as a symbol of victory.[29] Ata-Malik Juvayni, a high official in the service of the Mongol empire, wrote that in Termez, on the Oxus, "all the people, both men and women, were driven out onto the plain, and divided in accordance with their usual custom, then they were all slain".[29]
 
The city of Bukhara was not heavily fortified, with a moat and a single wall, and the citadel typical of Khwarezmi cities. The city leaders opened the gates to the Mongols, though a unit of Turkish defenders held the city's citadel for another twelve days. Survivors from the citadel were executed, artisans and craftsmen were sent back to Mongolia, young men who had not fought were drafted into the Mongolian army and the rest of the population was sent into slavery. As the Mongol soldiers looted the city, a fire broke out, razing most of the city to the ground.[30] Genghis Khan had the city's surviving population assemble in the main mosque of the town, where he declared that he was the flail of God, sent to punish them for their sins.
 
Meanwhile, the wealthy trading city of Urgench was still in the hands of Khwarezmian forces. The assault on Urgench proved to be the most difficult battle of the Mongol invasion and the city fell only after the defenders put up a stout defense, fighting block for block. Mongolian casualties were higher than normal, due to the unaccustomed difficulty of adapting Mongolian tactics to city fighting.
 
As usual, the artisans were sent back to Mongolia, young women and children were given to the Mongol soldiers as slaves, and the rest of the population was massacred. The Persian scholar Juvayni states that 50,000 Mongol soldiers were given the task of executing twenty-four Urgench citizens each, which would mean that 1.2 million people were killed. The sacking of Urgench is considered one of the bloodiest massacres in human history.
 
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Just read up on Genghis Khan on wikipedia... urgh.  Dalinar is an angel compared to him!

Genghis has the lead in history only imo because of numbers.  You want a true monster of history look at someone like Vlad Tepes.  The interesting thing is that some depictions of him also paint him as a hero.

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The comparison between Dalinar and Genghis was, I think, in how they would both recruit people for their skill, regardless of previous affiliations.

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Genghis has the lead in history only imo because of numbers.  You want a true monster of history look at someone like Vlad Tepes.  The interesting thing is that some depictions of him also paint him as a hero.

Vlad protected Wallachia from those damned Ottmans!  I'll hear no poppycock denouncing him!

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The strangest thing is Adolin has often been described as being an immature character... probably because of his issues with courtships... The sad truth is Adolin is a every responsible and disciplined young man who is much more mature than his comrades within the same age range.

 

Young Dalinar was immature, brash, petulant, impetuous... Yeah, I agree, the difference is just not maturity, but everything else. I rest my case. I have been saying for a long time how different from the father the son was and theories calling them to be similar was being misguided.  

 

I think its a cultural thing. Adolin is mature by our standards, but not by idiot  Alethie standards. Adolin and Old Dalinar both are outsiders to Alethie society in WoK and WoR. In contrast, Dalinar back in the day sounds like the model Alethie soldier/princeling despite being revolting to us in terms of attitude and behavior.

 

I agree though, with what we've seen thus far about the only thing Dalinar and Adolin have in common is that they can do serious butt kicking when they need to.

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I think its a cultural thing. Adolin is mature by our standards, but not by idiot  Alethie standards. Adolin and Old Dalinar both are outsiders to Alethie society in WoK and WoR. In contrast, Dalinar back in the day sounds like the model Alethie soldier/princeling despite being revolting to us in terms of attitude and behavior.

 

I agree though, with what we've seen thus far about the only thing Dalinar and Adolin have in common is that they can do serious butt kicking when they need to.

 

Yeah and there is also the fact Adolin is the first youngster we see managing to effectively fight of the Thrill... Being able to question the tenet of his warring society despite being severely influenced by others opinion (peer pressure) is a sign of maturity.

 

By all means, Adolin is so responsible, polite and obedient he could give lessons to many nowadays young men in their early twenties... Not having been ready to settle down, yet, at 23 hardly is a sign of complete immaturity. He is not 40, he's 23. That may be the only aspect where he is allowed to be young. I agree Alethi "standards" call for him to already be married with a few kids in tow, which would label him as immature, by their standards.

 

Even on the butt kicking attitude... Could Adolin truly muster enough murderous vibe to slaughter people has Dalinar did in this chapter?

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Loved it. Just as how i pictured him, single minded, relentless, intense and superbly in the grip of the thrill. I always pictured him as a sort of Warhound that Gavilar pointed in a direction and said "GO!" and by god he went...Im honestly excited to see him progress into the man he is today. That will be the highlight of this book.

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Don't know about Dalinar being similar to Adolin (I generally agree with the "Young Dalinar is more bloodthirsty than Adolin" comments) but I found him to be quite similar to a certain Logen from The First Law :D Awesome chapter by the way.

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Everyone keeps talking about how young Adolin is.  You have to remember that the Rosharan year is about 500 days.  Thus "23 year old" Adolin is more like a 31 1/2 year old.  It explains why his failure to settle down is more remarkable.

 

Research is fun.  A Rosharan year is actually only 1.1 years because it has a shorter day.  Thus Adolin is more like 25.5 of our years.

Edited by the_archduke
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Everyone keeps talking about how young Adolin is.  You have to remember that the Rosharan year is about 500 days.  Thus "23 year old" Adolin is more like a 31 1/2 year old.  It explains why his failure to settle down is more remarkable.

 

Research is fun.  A Rosharan year is actually only 1.1 years because it has a shorter day.  Thus Adolin is more like 25.5 of our years.

 

Just because he has lived "more hours" does not mean his psychological and physical development follow the same curve.

 

Adolin essentially behaves like an early twenties young man, not an older one. His entire relationship with his father, his behavior, his thoughts are those of a young person.

 

The year length issue is annoying because it makes people take those characters for older than their actual behavior and physical description call for. There is no indication Rohsarian bodies age at the same pace as Earth ones nor is there any indication having lived enough hours qualify you to be 25 years old in our world implies you would be that age should you be magically transported here. 

 

I am quite sure Brandon did not intend his readers to read his books with a calculator when it comes to age, so if he say someone is 20 or 23, then they are 20 or 23, independently of how their fictional planet rotates on its orbit.

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