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@Clanky Oh riiiight, I keep forgetting that the HI can scan people, I'm dumb. I've read the roles like 3 times now so maybe that'll help. (and thanks for the tip I was wondering how to do that!) I guess I don't see anything wrong with the roleless/weaker people telling the HI who they are, since then he could let the Hemalurgists know and they could give them a better role and the HI wouldn't know what the new role was (right?).

 

Edit: Also I was wondering, Can you PM the GM anytime? Or is that only at night as well? Just checking.

Edited by queensteph
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After thinking about it for a long time (only a few hours, and already my brain hurts), I think the plan works like this: Every Hemalurgist (and likely a few Eliminators) PM Araris that they are Hemalurgists. Araris does not share this with anyone, but he does share the number of Hemalurgists he has received (with the assumption that that number is slightly high, because of Eliminators). He keeps the numebr updated if any new ones are Forged. Unless this is very different from most (admittedly real-life) games I've played, we will know when Hemalurgists die, and be able to keep track of roughly when we should stop trusting Araris. Is that at all what you were thinking of, Alvron?

Allowing for both a traitor Hemalurgist and one loyal that won't contact Araris either for not wanting to reveal themselves or being inactive, the number Araris gives us should be about right.  But yes, that's similar to what I was thinking.

 

Yes, this is supposing that the trusted person who has the list of Hemalurgists is in contact with a kandra. I know. But I rather doubt the traitors will have a kandra. They have no use for one. They already know the alignments of everyone in the game so an alignment-checking role is virtually pointless. Therefore, kandra can be trusted. This is not saying kandra should out themselves as kandra and seek protection. Follow the Cop strategies are boring and I do not support them.

Don't be too sure that the eliminators don't have a Kandra.  With the forgers it would be the same as giving them a roleless player, something that's easily overcome.  Plus this is Wyrm we are talking about.  He did leave out the Squad Leaders role in MR4 just to mess with us.

 

@Clanky Oh riiiight, I keep forgetting that the HI can scan people, I'm dumb. I've read the roles like 3 times now so maybe that'll help. (and thanks for the tip I was wondering how to do that!) I guess I don't see anything wrong with the roleless/weaker people telling the HI who they are, since then he could let the Hemalurgists know and they could give them a better role and the HI wouldn't know what the new role was (right?).

 

Edit: Also I was wondering, Can you PM the GM anytime? Or is that only at night as well? Just checking.

If the HI was to arrange for the Hemalurgists to gain new roles then the HI would be closer to being turned.  We want more Hemalurgists, not less.

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Allowing for both a traitor Hemalurgist and one loyal that won't contact Araris either for not wanting to reveal themselves or being inactive, the number Araris gives us should be about right.  But yes, that's similar to what I was thinking.

 

I was thinking a few more than that, but yes. My margin of error would be 1-2 loyal reluctant Hemalurgists + however many traitors we think there might be, just in case thay all say they're Hemalurgists. Unlikely, given his ability to scan, but possible.

Speaking of which, how many eliminators do we assume we have? I know it's usually 1-2 in normal (real life) Mafia, but normal Mafia also doesn't have 30 people.

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If the HI was to arrange for the Hemalurgists to gain new roles then the HI would be closer to being turned.  We want more Hemalurgists, not less.

I believe that was just a case of getting roles confused. I believe she meant this:

 guess I don't see anything wrong with the roleless/weaker people telling the HI who they are, since then he could let the Forgers know and they could give them a better role and the HI wouldn't know what the new role was (right?).

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I believe that was just a case of getting roles confused. I believe she meant this:

 guess I don't see anything wrong with the roleless/weaker people telling the HI who they are, since then he could let the Forgers know and they could give them a better role and the HI wouldn't know what the new role was (right?).

Yes, thank you for clarifying Clanky. Love u

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I was thinking more along the lines of people who don't have the most important roles or who are roleless could reveal this to the HI. Then if a forger needed a target to forge a new Hemalurgist or something like that then they could ask the HI for a target. This would only work while we are sure that Araris is still on our side but It could stop forgers from forging over Hemalurgists or Elantrians. The more I think about it the more I find this actually to be not a very good plan. I am just worried about losing important roles to forgers or forgers being too wary of this which allows the traitors forger(if they have one) to give all the good roles to fellow traitors.

 

Yeah, that would basically be telling the HI who does have an important role, because they would be all the people who haven't contacted the HI (minus the inactives).

 

Speaking of which, how many eliminators do we assume we have? I know it's usually 1-2 in normal (real life) Mafia, but normal Mafia also doesn't have 30 people.

 

Typically between 20-25% of the total players. Depending on the makeup of the team, it could be less than that, but not under 15%. They're usually closer to 20%.

 

Don't be too sure that the eliminators don't have a Kandra.  With the forgers it would be the same as giving them a roleless player, something that's easily overcome.  Plus this is Wyrm we are talking about.  He did leave out the Squad Leaders role in MR4 just to mess with us.

 

True. But giving them a Hemalurgist is also a pointless role since only the loyal Hemalurgists matter in terms of HI subversion. I could absolutely see them having a Hemalurgist. But a Hemalurgist and a kandra? That's a little less, even with a Forger. There are probably multiple Forgers so there's nothing saying that the eliminator Forger (assuming there is an eliminator Forger, though I think there likely is) would be successful with his forges. And if he's not, that's giving the eliminators two useless roles right at the start. Doesn't really seem particularly balanced.

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Yeah, that would basically be telling the HI who does have an important role, because they would be all the people who haven't contacted the HI (minus the inactives).

 

I realized that which was one of the reasons I realized it was a poor idea. 

 

Yes, thank you for clarifying Clanky. Love u

No problem I'm here to help! Unless you are a traitor, then I am here to kill you.

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I feel like it would be a very cruel joke to give the Eliminators a Hemalurgist, simply because the HI is much more useful than a Hemalurgist to them. They would eventually have to make a choice, like "Okay, do we voluntarily lynch this guy to get the HI, or do we deal with a confirmed safe role?"

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I feel like it would be a very cruel joke to give the Eliminators a Hemalurgist, simply because the HI is much more useful than a Hemalurgist to them. They would eventually have to make a choice, like "Okay, do we voluntarily lynch this guy to get the HI, or do we deal with a confirmed safe role?"

 

  • Hemalurgic Intelligence - At the beginning of the game, after Roles have been distributed, a player at random will be killed off and made into the HI. The HI is a publicly known Role, and starts off as a loyal crew member. Hemalurgically bound to the computer systems aboard the ship, the HI is in full control of the ship's functions. But while the HI is mechanical, it still possesses a human's psyche, and cannot devote its mind totally to any one task. Each Night, it may watch a player as they carry out their shift, and discover that player’s Role. Without a physical presence, the HI cannot be killed, targeted or affected by Roles, and its vote cannot be used to overpower the Captain. When all the loyal Hemalurgists on the station are dead, the AI is subverted to the side of the Traitors and will join their doc. The crew will not be informed of this.

Emphasis mine.

 

They would not have to sacrifice their Hemalurgist since they are traitors. Their Hemalurgist would not count among the loyal Hemalurgist numbers.

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But it's only Loyal hemalurgists that keep the HI in line. Any traitorous hemalurgists wouldn't stop the HI from changing sides.

 

EDIT: There :ph34r: are :ph34r: ninja's :ph34r: everywhere!!! :ph34r:

Edited by Clanky
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The crux of my second plan was that if there is one eliminator, and two loyalists in the 3 PMs, if the person that is scanned is a loyalist, then nothing happens, except one less person under suspicion, and that info could be spread to the rest of the thread as well. If it's an eliminator though, the eliminators will know, okay so this guy will probably be targeted, but we don't know by whom, or what they will do. If it's the Lynch that's against them, they can defend against that. But if it's individual actions, they don't know what's coming.

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I feel like it would be a very cruel joke to give the Eliminators a Hemalurgist, simply because the HI is much more useful than a Hemalurgist to them. They would eventually have to make a choice, like "Okay, do we voluntarily lynch this guy to get the HI, or do we deal with a confirmed safe role?"

It would be funny if their Hemalrgist did have to die in order for the HI to turn, I literally laughed out loud, but then everyone's posts reminded me that the death of a traitorous Hemalurgist didn't have to take place. But it's still a funny thought.

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If it's an eliminator though, the eliminators will know, okay so this guy will probably be targeted, but we don't know by whom, or what they will do. If it's the Lynch that's against them, they can defend against that. But if it's individual actions, they don't know what's coming.

 

But why would the eliminator teammates who haven't gained any heat stick their neck out to save their teammate who they know is taking heat? On the contrary, I'd think they'd use that opportunity to try to gain trust by helping us kill their teammate rather than save them. Look no further than Shallan in MR8 gunning to lynch Hero, her teammate, two cycles in a row. Or Feligon in QF10 who gained trust because he'd helped lynch one of his teammates. The eliminators will rarely do what you're predicting they will do.

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The crux of my second plan was that if there is one eliminator, and two loyalists in the 3 PMs, if the person that is scanned is a loyalist, then nothing happens, except one less person under suspicion, and that info could be spread to the rest of the thread as well. If it's an eliminator though, the eliminators will know, okay so this guy will probably be targeted, but we don't know by whom, or what they will do. If it's the Lynch that's against them, they can defend against that. But if it's individual actions, they don't know what's coming.

I'm still a bit confused. First, your plan requires that one of the pms be eliminators, when it is very possible that none of them will be. Also, the only way the rest of what I think you're saying could work would be if the HI could scan for Alignments, which he can't.

EDIT: Here's what I got from your plan (correct me if I'm wrong, which I probably am): The HI discovers a role. He PMs 3 people, telling them that role. One of those people is (I'm assuming, for the sake of stating your plan as I see it) an eliminator. If the person that the HI scanned was loyal, the eliminators might kill them, or possibly not, depending on the scanned's importance and how willing the eliminators are to cast suspicion on themselves (as well as the other people receiving PMs). I'm assuming the HI doesn't tell anyone he's PMing who else he is tellin the roles to. I'm not sure what we gain if the scanned is loyal, because we don't really know that he/she is.

If the scanned is an eliminator, we now know their role (though not that they're an eliminator). I'm also not certain how that helps us.

Sorry if I'm missing something, but right now I'm not sure what you're suggesting we do.

Edited by Elbereth (Limelleth)
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"I think Bridge Boy's plan is a very shaky one," Rae said. "The HI can't discover if somebody is loyal or not, just their role, so what's the point of telling other people someone's role? I'm kind of suspicious of Bridge Boy now because of this plan. It seems like an attempt to contribute without giving meaningful information."

She thought for a little while and added, "I think all of the Hemalurgists should tell the HI what they are, so we can learn how many Hemalurgists we have out there."

 

What does ninjaing mean?

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Elbereth, you said plenty thanks :)

 

In fact, looking at Elbereths plan I think that it would be better to do that one as then no-one should have to worry about names being leaked or anything, but we can still see how close/far away the HI is to being subverted. It also allows Araris to actually do some stuff with his ability or maybe just plain deduction skills etc

 

I don't think Elkanah has posted?

 

No you're right Stink, I hadn't posted yet. I've been traveling and haven't had access to a computer. I'm pretty new to this kind of forum so I'm trying to take all this information in. So far we've had five pages of discussion, but what have we figured out?

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No you're right Stink, I hadn't posted yet. I've been traveling and haven't had access to a computer. I'm pretty new to this kind of forum so I'm trying to take all this information in. So far we've had five pages of discussion, but what have we figured out?

 

Let's see, I believe the general consensus is that the Hemalurgists should contact Araris in the Night cycle. Which I see no problem with and agree on. We also shouldn't just give out all of our information to him since it is a possibility that he will turn evil eventually.

 

Kipper said he doubts the Eliminators have a Mistborn. I am of the same opinion.

 

Wilson said she doubts the Eliminators have a Kandra. Alvron then says he wouldn't put it past Wyrm to give them one, and Wilson responds by saying she doubts they have a Hemalurgist and a Kandra since both of those role are pretty pointless for them. Wilson also said she believes the Eliminators to have a Forger. I agree about the Forger. Eliminators having a Hemalurgist and a Kandra? I don't think that would be the case, but in MR9 Wyrm did say something about being unpredictable. 

 

Those are a few of the topics that have been discussed in case you're not up to speed. There hasn't been much about the lynch so far. Practically nothing actually.

 

On the subject of roles, what do you all think the Eliminators would have?

 

My guesses:

 

1 Elantrian or Voidbringer(Protective role)

1 Feruchemist(vote changing ability)

1 BioChromancer(roleblock)

1 Forger(get new abilities)

1 Hemalurgist or Kandra(basically roleless for the Eliminators but could possibly be used for manipulation if scanned by HI)

If there are six then possibly a roleless or a Hemalurgist/Kandra.

 

 

I'm gonna put my vote on Wilson. There's just something about her.

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I feel as though I should vote but I don't have strong enough suspicions for anybody yet. And I don't trust other peoples suspicions either because they could be a traitor trying to get everyone else to lynch a loyal crewman. 

 

I've gone over it all again and I honestly don't see anyone acting too traitorous. Ignorant maybe. Or just trying to add to a discussions. I don't know...

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