"Unite them"

[bridgemenspren]

I am pretty new here, so this may easily have already been discussed.

 

But one of the theories I had in my reading came up with this repeated line from Honor, "unite them".

While it's of course easy to believe, like Dalinar, that he is supposed to unite the Alethi, I think that Honor is talking about so much more -

 

I think perhaps, that he is telling Dalinar to unite the Alethi and the Parshendi, OR perhaps the Alethi and as many other kingdoms as possible.

 

What do others think? It just seems so likely to lead Dalinar, and therefore the reader, down the side path of believing that "unite them" has a simple meaning.

Also, it seems like even a unified Alethi would have trouble handling this "Everstorm" by itself...

 

 

...

 

This also leads me to think that, considering other theories I've read, uniting the Alethi and Parshendi could have other implications. What I mean is...

 

What if the Parshendi are of Cultivation? Since they aren't exactly humans, what if humanity is of Honor, and parshendi (and all their cremling/chasmfiend forms?) are of Cultivation, and one of the main ways Odium has overcome them and the Oathpact is by leading the 'creations' of Honor to conflict with the 'creations' of Cultivation?

 

That's a theory based on very little, just what I've read around this forum so it could be way off.

 

 

[Swimmingly]

That's a fine theory. Interpretations so far range from "reunite the Knights Radiant" to "reunite the Heralds" to "reunite the Shards". The nebulous nature of prophecy probably means that all these are valid as theories.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Swimmingly

[The Rooster]

I always thought of uniting all of the people of Roshar. That or he's referring to Earth, Wind, Water, Fire and Heart. I think we all know what happens when those bad boys get together! I think CP would be invigorated by the cremmy freshness of a Highstorm.

[Moogle]

That's a fine theory. Interpretations so far range from "reunite the Knights Radiant" to "reunite the Heralds" to "reunite the Shards". The nebulous nature of prophecy probably means that all these are valid as theories.

 

Perhaps offtopic: What is it with Honor and being cryptic? The fate of the world could depend on whoever receives his visions and he decides to be as unclear as possible. He could change "Unite them" to "Unite the Heralds" at the cost of one word and save Dalinar a ton of trouble. He could have spent any amount of time explaining the Recreance. Instead, he gives Dalinar gems of useful information like “Read the book. Unite them.”

 

I'm beginning to understand how he managed to get himself killed off despite having Cultivation to help. He was just too stupid.

[marianmi]

1) I think on every world the shards first created humans, themselves being humans from Yolen. Since Parsh seem very adapted to Roshar, looks to me they were native, as in already there, not created by Cultivation.

 

2) Since Parsh are native to Roshar, then they are not the Voidbringers, since the Voidbringers chased humans from the Tranquiline Halls to Roshar. I can't see the Parshmen going to TH (another planet maybe) and chase humans on Roshar.

 

3) I think UNITE THEM means unite the humans. Unfortunately, I don't think it includes Parsh, since we haven't actually seen any vision where Parsh and humans were in the same army. (I am assuming that in KR times they were UNITED in the sense that Honor told Dalinar).

[Swimmingly]

Well, we've seen the past, we've seen the worst-case scenario, and it looks like, if the mistakes of the past are repeated, we're heading for it. So, perhaps the best thing to do is not repeat the past - make peace between all creatures, even Odium's, etc.

[marianmi]

even Odium's, etc.

 

I don't think Odium "created" any creature.

Noone are "his"... he just makes sure creatures hate eachother ...

[Swimmingly]

How do we know that? Perhaps reasoning life even required collaboration between all three shards, à la Ruin and Preservation

[junior]

Perhaps offtopic: What is it with Honor and being cryptic? The fate of the world could depend on whoever receives his visions and he decides to be as unclear as possible. He could change "Unite them" to "Unite the Heralds" at the cost of one word and save Dalinar a ton of trouble. He could have spent any amount of time explaining the Recreance. Instead, he gives Dalinar gems of useful information like “Read the book. Unite them.”

 

I'm beginning to understand how he managed to get himself killed off despite having Cultivation to help. He was just too stupid.

 

Well...  Keep in mind that he has no clue who's getting his messages or what their situation is.  In fact, his final message seems to suggest that he's not sure that anyone will *ever* get his messages (since he's not sure how the viewer found them).  So the whole thing is presumably a hodge-podge of what he thinks will be useful and make sense to the viewer.  And if the modern Alethi hadn't lost so much of their history, it might very well all be crystal clear to Dalinar.

[Iredomi]

I always thought of uniting all of the people of Roshar. That or he's referring to Earth, Wind, Water, Fire and Heart. I think we all know what happens when those bad boys get together! I think CP would be invigorated by the cremmy freshness of a Highstorm.

Dang it small smartphone and big thumbs. My attempts to upvote your post have resulted in the cursed negative one red box coming up. Can my error be rectified... I swear i found your post funny! I swear...

[Claincy]

I always thought of uniting all of the people of Roshar. That or he's referring to Earth, Wind, Water, Fire and Heart. I think we all know what happens when those bad boys get together! I think CP would be invigorated by the cremmy freshness of a Highstorm.

 

 

Dang it small smartphone and big thumbs. My attempts to upvote your post have resulted in the cursed negative one red box coming up. Can my error be rectified... I swear i found your post funny! I swear...

Happens now and then. I've fixed it back to neutral, anyone want to toss an upvote at him to get it to where it should be?

[Bloodfalcon]

Happens now and then. I've fixed it back to neutral, anyone want to toss an upvote at him to get it to where it should be?

gotcha covered.

[The Rooster]

Well.. You keep out of a forum topic for two days and all hell breaks lose on your rep :-) . No sweat Iredomi, I know how it is to try to upvote on a smartphone.  There was this member named TheFallGuy last week.  He seemed awesome so I went to upvote and accidentally started an avalanche that left only scorched earth and little bits of zucchini in its wake.

Edited December 8, 2013 by AG Rooster

[Iredomi]

I witnessed that it was pretty amazing to watch someones rep fall that far and fast I hope they recover even being under another alias.

[thblackdeth]

Well.. You keep out of a forum topic for two days and all hell breaks lose on your rep :-) . No sweat Iredomi, I know how it is to try to upvote on a smartphone.  There was this member named TheFallGuy last week.  He seemed awesome so I went to upvote and accidentally started an avalanche that left only scorched earth and little bits of zucchini in its wake.

 

 

I witnessed that it was pretty amazing to watch someones rep fall that far and fast I hope they recover even being under another alias.

 

This sounds terrifying...

 

 

On topic, I wonder if this is cryptic as it is due to WoT writing and dealing with those prophecies. There are just too many possible meanings for this not to be a plan to drive us all crazy theorizing about it. I wonder if the original intention was to unite the KR. I would assume any large group of people with amazing powers would have some disagreements internally. Perhaps he wanted them all on the same page, but his message is getting there way too late.

 

I can also see a big argument for uniting the Parshendi and humans. The "old gods" keep getting mentioned which seems to imply some serious power. WOR readings:

We find out the old gods were the reason the Parshendi went to war in the first place. Then we find out they want to avoid death and are considering bringing them back. It seems like uniting the Parshendi and humans together could avoid the old gods from returning which may minimize the dangers of the desolation, particularly if the old gods are corrupted by Odium

 

and who knows, If the shards are of honor, perhaps "uniting" them will give someone more powerful shards (crazy off the wall idea I don't actually believe). 

[Gloom]

Perhaps offtopic: What is it with Honor and being cryptic? The fate of the world could depend on whoever receives his visions and he decides to be as unclear as possible. He could change "Unite them" to "Unite the Heralds" at the cost of one word and save Dalinar a ton of trouble. He could have spent any amount of time explaining the Recreance. Instead, he gives Dalinar gems of useful information like “Read the book. Unite them.”

 

I'm beginning to understand how he managed to get himself killed off despite having Cultivation to help. He was just too stupid.

I think that Tanavast meant for Dalinar to unite humanity for the final desolation. As far as the Heralds go....

If Tanavast told Dalinar unite the Heralds, he would think Tanavast was a loon. How would Dalinar even start to untie the Heralds?

If Tanavast meant unite humanity and the Parshendi, well, then I think he could have been a little more clear on that point.

So I think Tanavast meant unite everyone you could, if you can get the Heralds, great, if you can get the Parshendi, fantastic, but start getting your people in order or your all going into the Trollock stew pots....oops, my bad, the Trollocks aren't voidbringers.

[Moogle]

I think that Tanavast meant for Dalinar to unite humanity for the final desolation. As far as the Heralds go....

If Tanavast told Dalinar unite the Heralds, he would think Tanavast was a loon. How would Dalinar even start to untie the Heralds?

If Tanavast meant unite humanity and the Parshendi, well, then I think he could have been a little more clear on that point.

So I think Tanavast meant unite everyone you could, if you can get the Heralds, great, if you can get the Parshendi, fantastic, but start getting your people in order or your all going into the Trollock stew pots....oops, my bad, the Trollocks aren't voidbringers.

 

I agree that it was probably not the Heralds. I was just using that as an example of how Tanavast could have used one more word and saved everyone a lot of trouble. The fact that it is not immediately obvious as referring to all of humanity is an issue with Tanavast's poor communication skills. Happily, Taravangian is already uniting everyone, despite Tanavast's attempts to fail as hard as possible.

 

Clear communication is one of the most useful things in any universe, ever. Witness its lack result in 99% of the problems in WoT.

 

I don't agree with any of the defenses present in this thread for Tanavast. "Read the book. Unite them." is simply not clear, and relying on people to understand your indirect references when you don't know who is going to receive the message is just plain stupid. I understand the guy was dying, but he had the mind of a god, yeah? He also went on for like ten visions, so he wasn't in that big of a hurry. I'll analyze his failures in more detail on my next reread. I seem to have suddenly developed a huge pet peeve for the trope where mysterious people leave unclear/vague messages when they were fully capable of doing otherwise.

[Haelbarde]

EDIT: I just realised there were more than just the one at the end of the book. Fortunately, on my current reread, I'd just got up to Dalinar's poker battle.

 

Chapter 19 - STARFALLS

 

"I miss these times. They were one, once. The orders. Men. Not without problems or strife, of course. But focused. I wish I could help you. You have to unite them. Yes, this is important. Do not let strife consume you. Be strong. Act with honor, and honor will aid you."

In this instance, "Unite them" most definitely refers to the Knights Radiant and the Alethi.

 

 

Chapter 75 - IN THE TOP ROOM

There's two parts of his (Honor's) discussion:

"Lead/Unite/Protect them", and "Men must face them together. You cannot squabble as in times past."

 

1) "Men must face them together. You cannot squabble as in times past."

This most definitely applies to the Alethi. Whether or not if solely refers to them, or if its Roshar wide. I think it likely refers to both, with Alethkar first, then the world, based on info from Chapter 19.

 

From Dalinar's discussion in his vision in Chapter 19, it appear Alethkar has fulfilled one of the reasons for the Knights Radiant's existence: to continually refine, and practice, the art of war. For the Radiants, this was so that the rest didn't have to, and its purpose was so that the knowledge was there for the next desolation. Regardless of why, the Alethkar nations have done just that, kept alive the knowledge of war. 

Uniting Alethkar will result in a nation properly equipped with the knowledge to fight, as the Radiants themselves did.
Additionally, from what we've seen, we've got the startings of a number of the Radiant orders coming from the Alethi. 

However, the Radiants didn't fight by themselves in desolations, rather, they recruited and trained and organised the other nations. Thus, uniting them would also refer to uniting the nations of Roshar. 

 

EDIT 2: Continuing my reread, I came across this quotation, which nicely backs up my point

 

He was losing his thirst for battle. That worried him, as the Thrill – the enjoyment and longing for war – was part of what drove the Alethi as a people. The grandest of masculine arts was to become a great warrior, and the most important Calling was to fight. The Almighty himself depended on the Alethi to train themselves in honourable battle so that when they died, they could join the Heralds’ army and win back the Tranquiline Halls.

This is from Chapter 28 (pg 513 in my paperback version).

I might as well throw in the quotes I referred to above now:

 

She laughed. "The Knights Radiant fight for no king and for all of them."

"Then where do you live?"

"Urithiru is where our orders are centered, but we live in cities all across Alethela."

...

"It is our duty and our priviledge to stay bigilant for the Desolation. One kingdom to study the arts of war so that the other s might have peace. We die so that you may live. It has ever been our place."

Dalinar stood still, sorting through that.

"All who can fight are needed," the woman said. "And all who have a desire to fight should be compelled to come to Alethela. Fighting, even this fighting against the Ten Deaths, changes a person. We can teach you so that it will not destroy you. Come to us."
Dalinar found himself nodding.

"Every pasture needs three things," the woman said, voice changing, as if she were quoting from memory. "Flocks to grow, herdsmen to tend, and watchers at the rim. We of Alethela are those watchers - the warriors who protect and fight. We maintain the terrible arts of killing, then pass them on to others when the Desolation comes."

 

2)"Lead/Unite/Protect them I think is more of a Cosmere thing. Que spoiler brackets.

When Honor talks about 'them' he is looking to the sky:

 

 

"This isn't just about you either," the figure said, raising his hand into the air. A light winked out in the sky, one that Dalinar hadn't realized was there. Then another winked out as well. The sun seemed to be growing dimmer.

"It's about all of them," the figure said. "I should have realized he'd come for me."
.....

"Someone must lead them."

"I will do it," Dalinar said. The words just came out.

"Someone must unite them."

I will do it."

"Someone must protect them."

"I will do it!"

 
The lights in the sky I would suggest are Sel, and another unknown shardworld, being shattered shards. 

 

Honor says, "It's about all of them. I should have figured he'd come for me." 

Me=Honor

He=Odium (who we know shattered Honor)

therefore:

Them=Shards, some who've already been destroyed.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Haelbarde

[Gloom]

I agree that it was probably not the Heralds. I was just using that as an example of how Tanavast could have used one more word and saved everyone a lot of trouble. The fact that it is not immediately obvious as referring to all of humanity is an issue with Tanavast's poor communication skills. Happily, Taravangian is already uniting everyone, despite Tanavast's attempts to fail as hard as possible.

 

Clear communication is one of the most useful things in any universe, ever. Witness its lack result in 99% of the problems in WoT.

 

I don't agree with any of the defenses present in this thread for Tanavast. "Read the book. Unite them." is simply not clear, and relying on people to understand your indirect references when you don't know who is going to receive the message is just plain stupid. I understand the guy was dying, but he had the mind of a god, yeah? He also went on for like ten visions, so he wasn't in that big of a hurry. I'll analyze his failures in more detail on my next reread. I seem to have suddenly developed a huge pet peeve for the trope where mysterious people leave unclear/vague messages when they were fully capable of doing otherwise.

 

I know I've said this before somewhere. Just because Taravangians stated purpose is to unite humanity doesn't mean that his methods are going to be effective. Historically assassinating people has not led to stability. Assassinating half the worlds rulers is almost certain to result in chaos unless things are handled very very carefully. I don't see that kind of care being taken. Taravangian gave Szeth a list and loosed him on the world like a velociraptor at a preschool. This isn't a promising start.

[Kier]

I know I've said this before somewhere. Just because Taravangians stated purpose is to unite humanity doesn't mean that his methods are going to be effective. Historically assassinating people has not led to stability. Assassinating half the worlds rulers is almost certain to result in chaos unless things are handled very very carefully. I don't see that kind of care being taken. Taravangian gave Szeth a list and loosed him on the world like a velociraptor at a preschool. This isn't a promising start.

 

Not to mention that it will probably be hard for a King to "handle things very very carefully" if he is a halfwit some days. 

[Haelbarde]

Not to mention that it will probably be hard for a King to "handle things very very carefully" if he is a halfwit some days.

It'd be potentially amusing if Szeth returned on one of Mr T.'s bad days. He'd possibly not even know what to do with him, maybe giving Szeth his oath stone. I mean, Mr T.'s attendents are hardly going to be able to stop Szeth from interacting with him, even though interactions with Szeth would be definitely be ones they'd want Mr. T. to avoid on a bad day.

[+eveorjoy]

From Dalinar's last chapter, I understood "Unite them" to mean the KR. Tanavast does at least does say clearly that the KR needs to stand again.

[Haelbarde]

From Dalinar's last chapter, I understood "Unite them" to mean the KR. Tanavast does at least does say clearly that the KR needs to stand again.

Check my post here: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/4751-unite-them/?p=80656

That contains more thoughts on this.

He says lead, unite, protect them. KR are quite capable, even untrained. Kaladin took down a shardbearer with a spear, before he even was conscious of the fact he was a surgebinder.

Lift was also quite capable in that chapter we've been given

I can't see them needing protecting. Also, from the context, I'd suggest he's referring to something else. You'll find that in the spoiler tags in the post linked.

[+eveorjoy]

Check my post here: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/4751-unite-them/?p=80656

That contains more thoughts on this.

He says lead, unite, protect them. KR are quite capable, even untrained. Kaladin took down a shardbearer with a spear, before he even was conscious of the fact he was a surgebinder.

Lift was also quite capable in that chapter we've been given

I can't see them needing protecting. Also, from the context, I'd suggest he's referring to something else. You'll find that in the spoiler tags in the post linked.

 

Protecting does always mean physical protection. It could mean protection from what killing people could do to them. Or protection from desire of hate or vengeance. It could be protection in a spiritual or mental sense.

 

It could be all the people of Roshar as well, but it could also be the KR. They are capable but not invulnerable.

[Haelbarde]

Protecting does always mean physical protection. It could mean protection from what killing people could do to them. Or protection from desire of hate or vengeance. It could be protection in a spiritual or mental sense.

 

It could be all the people of Roshar as well, but it could also be the KR. They are capable but not invulnerable.

Good point. I suppose my comment would be that the surgebinders need to be found. All indications is that that isn't an easy thing to do, with people hiding their skills if at all possible. Also, the KR can't really exist unless they're gathered/united together. KR needs to be found/remade/trained, then led. I wouldn't really describe the KR as needing uniting.

I guess we'll just need to read and find out.