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Well, let's get a proper Cosmere dissection thread for Shadowsilenceforesthell


Pechvarry

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Doesn't seem right for a general reaction thread and such.

WARNING: There be spoilers ahead! This thread not for those who haven't read. (hah that rhymed)

The first thing that really stuck out to me was the black veins. This seems very much like what Nightblood does, which itself feeds on (at least one form of) Investiture. I'm guessing shades' touch uses the target's physical aspect as fuel and draws out whatever innate Investiture this planet's humans have. Since a spark of investiture is required for true sentience, this would explain why there aren't any animal shades, despite them triggering the shade murder response.

The Simple Rules themselves are bewildering, but I'm thinking it has something to do with the cognitive existence of a concept like violence. I.e. in shadesmar, violence is as tangible a thing (like a shard?) as a chair.

It can't be intent, as the story shows multiple times. I suppose we shouldn't dally on simple rules, as there's a thread for that.

Any realmatic gleanings from the rest of 17th shard?

Edited by Pechvarry
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I'm pondering...

 

Don't expect any massive revelations, I don't think, but some initial thoughts I haven't really organized or permuted yet:

 

-Nice thought on the veins/sentience angle. I can buy that.

 

-As for the Rules, I'm thinking on those.

 

-One thing I noted for the withering is that silver used to counteract it is affected in exactly the way that silver that touches a shade is: it blackens. That suggests rather heavily that the silver "draws out" something shady (ha, pun :D) from the injury. More on this later, I think...

Edited by Ookla the Inveterate
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Good point. Like drinking liquid charcoal to absorb poison, the silver seems to suck in their essence and be ruined in the process. But why silver? The metals of Scadrial are forms, filtering and shaping power towards a task. But silver isn't a focus, or a fuel, or any of those "normal" Cosmeric things. It doesn't do anything magical. It's just kind of a kryptonite foil.

Somehow, I feel like whatever defines silver as the anti-shade is also what arbitrarily defined the Simple Rules.

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There's a quote from Sanderson that implies, if not flat-out says, that his "minor" shardworlds will not have a Shard, but might have something like a Splinter. Clearly, there is SOME Investiture on this planet. While it doesn't seem any human we've seen (though we only saw like six) had any system of magic, there are the shades, and the Evil. It's possible there is simply something special about silver, the chemical element, but maybe whatever Investiture made the shades also made silver special?

 

I wonder, is there any way to purify silver? Can it be smelted, maybe, and the concentrated evil it draws out of shades removed? Is that, perhaps, why the shades dislike the ignition of fire, even though fire itself blinds them? They are trying to prevent anyone from kindling a fire hot enough to purify their weakness?

 

Cosmere-wide... I am SO GLAD you brought up innate investiture. I think that when a shade is passive, the Innate Investiture is what causes them to shy away from living people. The way it blocks ironpulls and steelpushes on Scadrial (and, if you subscribe to my theory, it is what copper Pulls on and bronze Pushes on) I think it automatically grants some protection against passive shades; of course, once a shade's attention is drawn, it overcomes this light aversion, and devours you. I like the idea that your body is the physical fuel used to change your own Innate Investiture into a shade.

 

If that's the case... I wonder if a Smoker burning copper in the Forests would be able to push back shades. Passive ones, at least. I think we've seen that they are averse to Innate Investiture while passive, but greedily infect it while enraged; burning copper while they're mad might just make them worse. I'm certain that burning bronze would let you detect shades, not that they hide. In fact, if it works how I think it does, flaring bronze when you're infected might "hide" your Innate Investiture from the infection, putting off your conversion to a shade. Of course this likely would do nothing to slow down your body withering to a dessicated corpse; still maybe you'd be able to give your buddies a little extra head start before you spring forth to vengefully kill them.

 

How long does Innate Investiture stay with a dead body? Chesterton had been dead for two hours, and Silence still worried the shades would get his body; presumably she'd know, as she seems a fair expert on shades. Does Innate Investiture stay that long? Do the shades simply seek warm bodies (with their "earth sight", tee hee) and they usually have Innate Investiture? The way humans have evolved to like shiny things because long ago shiny things usually (but not always) meant water?

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  This is my first real post on this site, after joining to complete the Shardhunt and posting to say I did so, which brought me out from just reading and theorizing on the sidelines, and I'm going to lay down a theory that places Shadows of Silence in the Forests of Hell (SSFH has been recommended) and Sixth of the Dusk in the cosmere and starts to explain their magic systems.  Ready?

  In SSFH, Silence says "Justice died in homeland."  I think this means quite literally, Justice died in homeland, the home island/continent.  He was shattered by Odium.  From here, I’ve considered two options.  The one I'm less in favor of is that he was first split into two parts, as there is a relatively clean break between the punishment of the guilt and the protection of the innocent, and the punishment of guilty half shard landed in Hell Island.  The one I think more likely is that Justice is so degraded, or gave so much of his mind to the creation of humans on this planet, just as Preservation did, that he now works now on a very basic level of justice, attempting only to punish the guilty.  When the piece of himself that is drawn to the spirits that he gave himself to create see bloodshed, they go insane to punish it.  When they see someone run, they think they must be guilty and pursue.  When they see fire, they are blinded, as a purifying righteous fire/oxidation was the body of Justice and it blinds his splinters like metal (non-silver metal) blinded Preservation and Ruin.  These splinters believe that those who hide must be guilty, and they pursue.  One of the reasons I think fire/oxidation is the body of Justice is that I think silver is the body of Mercy (more later).

Honor and Cultivation started a civilization because they were in love, but Ruin and Preservation started a world because they needed the others balance to to create.  It makes since that if Justice were to start a world, it would need to be in partnership with Mercy.  I think Mercy was ruthlessly splintered by Odium as well, as his hate for her, a shard so counter to his own nature, would be great and I don’t see Mercy being able to fight back, as she would be bound to show mercy, even to Odium.  I think she was so splintered that she now has to function at a very basic level, the level of microbes, which when infecting an animal such as the birds in Sixth, they protect those who are with them in the shelter and the nature of her Mercy, in the way that works best on this world which is shielding the mind, regardless of who they are helping or what that person has done.  In Islands where she reigned, the shades do not appear.  I like this theory better than the other half of Justice being at work on the Sixth islands.  (see podcast from Writing Excuses http://www.writingexcuses.com/2013/04/21/writing-excuses-8-16-brainstorming-with-brandon-again/ if you haven’t done the Shardhunt for more about Sixth of the Dusk.  How they brainstormed it is how he wrote it.  One word from the Sixth story though.   Where does Sixth say the other traders come from, his [homeland].  Silence’s ancestors were sailor/explorers who ventured from the “homeland” to a dangerous unpopulated island and settled there.  Sound familiar?  Conservation of worlds and Occam’s razor says were on the same planet.

I bet silver is key to the function of these microbes.  I think silver, a malleable precious metal that can be tarnished (oxidation/fire) but is of great value, is the body of Mercy and when Justice and Mercy collide, it’s like the oxidation of silver, you get a black compound, silver nitrite, such as we saw in SSFH.

Last theory.  In the forums someone reported that Brandon has said that Sixth is going to be part of a space travel story at some point.  What world has been brought up where going there and taking the shards would have a largely positive impact on the people (save for making trouble for the traders whose birds may stop protecting them), where there are two shards so perfectly balanced, that when Harmony takes them up to prepare himself for his upcoming duel with Odium, he can stay himself, he can stay Harmony?  This one.  I think Harmony will be taking a working vacation with some trusted friends on a trip sometime soon (space trilogy time in Scadrial).  As Hoid mused to Dalinar in WOK, can you pull a being apart, bloody chunk by bloody chunk and then put him back together again.  He’s surely working towards it and Harmony is his best bet to see it happen.  Likely the splintering of Justice and Mercy came after the first letter and I bet in the next one we see in the epigrams will speak of Odium’s further deeds of destruction against Justice and Mercy and their world and it may be that this has been what has been delaying the next desolation on Roshar.

So, to recap, SSFH and Sixth are on the same world, where Justice and Mercy reigned and have been splintered thoroughly.  Fire is the body of Justice and silver the body of Mercy.  Harmony will come here and take up their Shards in the time of the Scadrial space triology, perhaps then being identified as the God Beyond, whom Silence refers to, coming to rescue them in the end.

So, what do you all think?

Edited by Trevalion
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I had to skim much of your post because I haven't read Sixth, but I think a lot of it has merit.

I don't think Brandon will "waste" 1/8th of the shards on this unimportant planet, but it's possible his count of 16 relies on some already dead off screen.

However, I seem to be reacting against the idea that both stories share a world. Like I said, I haven't read 6th. But I can't imagine it's doomed the way ssfh feels.

I really like the idea of the shades as some sort of twisted enforcement. Completely autonomous but flawed in what they enforce. This would sidestep issues of Intent.

If anyone were to hold all of adonalsium, my vote would be Sazed. But I hope Hoid has a better plan than a single conciousness. That would just start the cycle over again.

Though I just imagined that maybe adonalsium does regularly shatter and reassemble, that seems like a topic for another time.

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I still think the evil is Odious, or the anti-Adonalsium. When the shades wither you, then it's sort of how Odium would corrupt a spren, and your innate investiture, along with your cognitive identity, gets ruined. This planet is not Braise, I hope, but it might have a touch of Odium, maybe after one of Aona's or Skaze's splinters fell there. 

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My two cents:  

 

The Shades were created by someone who briefly took and gave up a Shard's powers and intended as enforcers of his/her little section of utopia.  Killing someone for running or setting fires sounds like something a twisted park ranger, while killing those who draw blood is a bit more understandable.

 

However, like TLR, the Sliver screwed up: the Shades (much like Steel Inquisitors) become uncontrollable after indulging in a kill, which is why they threaten everyone around afterwards.  

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My two cents:  

 

The Shades were created by someone who briefly took and gave up a Shard's powers and intended as enforcers of his/her little section of utopia.  Killing someone for running or setting fires sounds like something a twisted park ranger, while killing those who draw blood is a bit more understandable.

 

However, like TLR, the Sliver screwed up: the Shades (much like Steel Inquisitors) become uncontrollable after indulging in a kill, which is why they threaten everyone around afterwards.

 

I think this logic is actually quite sound. I'm sure, if true, it's a radically different story than "this place had a TLR too." But I could see someone using a portion of some sort of dying power to try to create a paradise without the mature, expanded mind of a proper shard.

Note, this is how I feel about the shades. On the other hand, I believe The Evil to be something completely different and terrifying. Probably the Anti-nalsium or Odium, or something completely different -- but not something that was part of this world's past.

Would having a lot of Breath make you more resistant to shades (a la, how they avoid people when not enraged) or more attractive to shades (a la mmm delicious Investiture...)

Interesting question. I don't believe shades have an appetite, so even if Investiture isn't what pushes them away, it probably wouldn't draw them to you either. But what about withering? Would you become more resistant? Would it be easier to wither because you're bursting with investiture (assuming I'm right and it uses your innate investiture to fuel the creation of a shade)? Would you end up fueling a shade before even touching your own investiture? A moot point, because you'd be dead and your leftover Investiture wasted, I suppose. Maybe you could bestow a Breath to a shade for some really wild results.

---

Something else I've been wondering: Brandon has said there are entities that almost completely lack physical aspects. How close is a shade to a Cognitive lifeless? Ingrained with commands and powered indefinitely by Investiture. Not truly thinking, but obviously possessing a mind of sorts.

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  • 2 months later...

What do the 3 rules have in common? I think that might be a key to the shard's identity. The first thing that comes to mind is oxygen. Fire uses it, blood transports it, and running causes rapid inhalation. Silver doesn't rust. It tarnishes becoming covered in a black film. Oxygen. Oxidation. Chemical reactions. What that has to do with the Cosmere I don't know. 

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A splinter is entirely possible, but that is very different in scale from saying a shard is there. And a Sliver is just someone like Vin or TLR who has held a shard's power for a time and given it up. I doubt they would be responsible for what is happening here.

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Pretty sure I recall reading there was a splinter or sliver. I could be mistaken. Clearly, something is having an effect on this world.

 

I believe what was actually said was more along the lines of minor shardworlds won't have anything more than a splinter.

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Something derivative of Adonalsium has almost certainly affected the planet.

Evidence: humanity.

Perhaps their ancestors worldhopped there though, like with AonDor and their magic died on arrival. Possible, but not really a Cosmere story unless it involves Shards, Adonalsium, or a force those have/had contended with.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Interesting that its silver, of all things.

Silver resists Allomancy and destroys shades...

Funny thing is, the only thing we have seen resist magical effects so far is a highly invested object. You have suggested allomancy couldn't affect people due to their bubble of innate investment - which is certainly interesting... But then why can Windrunners lash people into the air? 

I do recall somewhere that WoB said that Surgebinding is much more powerful than Allomancy though...

Also, about Justice... I don't know - it seems awfully like a sub-ideal of Honour... (Which I would say is why it is one of the characteristics of one of the orders of the Knights Radiant)

However as you have said, Justice and Mercy are generally considered Divine Attributes - the same way that Odium or Devotion are.

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Silver doesn't resist allomancy, it's simply allomantically inert, like lead. I wonder if you're thinking of aluminum, which cannot be pushed or pulled, doesn't have an atium shadow, and seems to interfere with pewter. Ironically it, itself, is not allomantically inert.

 

Innate investiture seems to block some allomancy, but not all. It blocks steel and iron, but obviously not zinc or brass. And, as we've seen, even iron and steel are simply hindrances to be overcome, not absolute barriers.

 

I wonder if it would take less Stormlight to Lash a Drab, or more to Lash a Thug flaring pewter.

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No mention of the God Beyond yet? Any speculation as to what that might be?

 

Just to clarify, I seem to remember that Shadows was set in the same system, but on a different world, to Roshar. Can anyone confirm for/against? If that is correct, the God Beyond may have been Honor (or one of the other three), and Shadows could maybe be the Tranquiline Halls? Probably a stretch.

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No mention of the God Beyond yet? Any speculation as to what that might be?

 

Just to clarify, I seem to remember that Shadows was set in the same system, but on a different world, to Roshar. Can anyone confirm for/against? If that is correct, the God Beyond may have been Honor (or one of the other three), and Shadows could maybe be the Tranquiline Halls? Probably a stretch.

 

It is not the case, but is a common mistake due to similarities in naming.  Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell takes place on Threnody.  The Silence Divine takes place on Ashyn, which is a planet in the Greater Roshar system.

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It is not the case, but is a common mistake due to similarities in naming.  Shadows for Silence in the Forests of calamity takes place on Threnody.  The Silence Divine takes place on Ashyn, which is a planet in the Greater Roshar system.

 

Nuts! Where do I get The Silence Divine? Or is that as-yet unreleased?

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  • 4 weeks later...

Is the metal focus a hint? Is it possible that Threnody was Preservation's first shot at creating a world?

Having people linger in a twisted form smacks of rampant Preservation - Without Ruin, Preservation would overdo life and lose control at some point. Hence, shades lingering long past their use-by dates.

The Simple Rules could reflect his attempts at magic systems (tenuous links ahoy!) - Fire/burning metals. Bloodshed/hemalurgy. Walk-don't-run could reflect the conservation of energy found in feruchemy. Since hemalurgy is of Ruin, I might simply place bloodshed as the opposite of Preservation's intent.

On an unrelated note, my reading of Silence made the withering sound a lot like a shardblade hit. A non-functioning, lifeless limb that occurs rapidly. I'm not saying they're from the same source, but realmatically, they might function the same?

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  • 2 months later...

Just a thought regarding silver. In real life silver compounds used to be used as disinfectants and microbiocides. Antibiotics replaced much of its applications but it is still being researched in its possible medical uses. Most of what I posted is from wikipedia, but the reason it popped in my brain, is that is also mentioned in the book The Strain by Guillermo Del Toro, so out of curiosity I looked it up to verify. So maybe that is why it is used against shades? It is a natural disinfectant, or purifier? Much like how fire is viewed?

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  • 2 weeks later...

Very late but I finally read this yesterday.

 

I liked all of the 'lore' about the God Beyond and Evil and whatnot. I keep imagining the God Beyond as related to whatever the weapon made to oppose Adonalsium is, if not the very 'weapon' itself. I think that the few mentions of 'the Plan' were intriguing. Perhaps the God Beyond's humans are being built up to survive or inhabit dangerous Shardworlds, maybe so they become acquainted with the various dangers that come along with Adonalsium's touch. But while Threnody is a Shardworld, albeit minor, I feel as if we got a glimpse of life from the God Beyond's side.

 

Do we know where this story took place in the chronology?

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