Witborn Posted October 17, 2015 Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 I really am against the new metal being related to Autonomy/Bavadin because the actions of Paalm and Miles are not very autonomy-esque, despite what Paalm says. Since it's from a known shard, that leaves Cultivation, Honor, Devotion, Dominion, Odium and Endowment. I suggested Endowment but that fell flat. (WoR and Elantris spoiler:) Honor, Devotion and Dominion are shattered and Odium seems invested in Roshar and I don't think Cultivation is leaving there soon. That leaves...no one...except.....Harmony. The reason Harmony can't find her is because he can't detect his own metal, just like Ruin couldn't see his own metal. It doesn't solve who Trell is or the men of red and gold but I think it's a strong possibility for where the metal came from. There are a few WoBs from a recent signing that made me think of this but I'm not my phone and not near a computer for the rest of the night. It's from either the Chicago or Lansing signing (whichever one Argent and Kurkistan were at). I can post the specific ones tomorrow. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landis963 Posted October 17, 2015 Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 Ruin couldn't see his own metal because it glowed just like every metal, and was thus easily camouflaged with other bits of metal. Also, Harmony would recognize harmonium, I think, if only because his Shard sense would recognize anything native to Scadrial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted October 17, 2015 Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 There'd also be the question of where the heck it came from.But her actions are also distinctly un-harmonious, the source of the metal doesn't necessarily mean that you'll follow the Shards ideal but really I'd say that Paalm at least is pretty into autonomy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Witborn Posted October 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 Both vali points. I actually forgot about the metals hiding the atium. I'm striking out over here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew C Posted October 18, 2015 Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 So I think it's Odium. Yes, Odium is heavily invested in Roshar, but he's been around the Cosmere before and I don't see him needing much investiture in order to create one spike. Bleeder is *hateful*. Her whole motivation is driven by hatred. Once free from Harmony's control, you'd think she'd approach Wax and explain the situation - instead she sets up Wax to kill her again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted October 18, 2015 Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 There was a WoB from the signing in SF that confirms that Odium would be willing to cooperate with another Shard if he got to take the lead (and implied without stating that this has happened or will happen) so it's entirely possible that we're seeing the influence of both Odium and Autonomy in one way or another. Like maybe Odium giving some pointers about how to mess with other worlds' magic systems and letting Autonomy do the dirty work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 I would say it would take a pretty heavy-duty argument to convince me that the alien God Metal spike doesn't belong to either Autonomy or Odium. I would say the evidence cited for Odium's involvement seem too in-character. It seems a red herring, and for all we know Odium is still largely tied up in Greater Roshar at the time between Stormlights 5 and 6. That said, I'm pretty sure he and Bavadin are to some extent co-operating at the moment based on the suspicious Splintering of both of their opposites on Sel, so it's possible Odium approves or that the Spike has Raysium alloyed into it. Wheras Paalm's sudden lurch towards Freedom At Any Cost seems very dramatic and likely a result of outside influence. I haven't seen a good knock-down argument as to why the spikes didn't contain Bavadinium. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Witborn Posted October 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 What is making me question Autonomy is Miles quote at the end of AoL where he says "The men of gold and red are coming and You will be ruled by them." Which doesnt sound very autonomous. I'm going to reread both books to see if there's evidence of Miles being spiked or of Paalm talking about Trell. It may be that Miles and Paalm's actions are unrelated and would allay my doubts a little bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Guys... Intent is NOT the trump card, and you are NOT bound by the rules of the universe to act according to a Shard's Intent just because you're using its power. For a thousand years, Allomancers were assassins and warriors. We have WoB; the Intent influences how you get the power, not what the power does or how it can be used. If Paalm did have a spike of Autonium, there was absolutely nothing compelling her to act following the intent of Autonomy. And if you wonder why he might provide her with the spike if she's not going to broadcast autonomy, I'd like to make two additional points. First, recall that Shards can, and do, fight against their own Intents. It becomes difficult as time goes by, but not everyone agrees with the Intent of the Shard they hold, and not all of them are ruled by it. Just as Preservation was able to put himself in a position to die so that someone else could take up his power and use it to kill herself and Ati, Autonomy might have no trouble providing assistance to someone for a cause other than Autonomy. And my second point, remember the Set. Miles was their agent, and it was their plan all along that he be captured. Just because you're manipulating someone and planning for their eventual downfall does not mean you support their endgame or philosophy. It was the Set's plan all along that Wax stop Miles; it may have been Bavadin's plan all along that he stop Bleeder. There are plenty of correlations between Alloy of Law and Shadows of Self already, anyway. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelek's Breath Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Bavadinium. I like the idea of that. I'm not too knowledgable on metals and spiking, but would a spike made of 2 metals work? Also, Oudeis I think Autonomium sounds better than Autonium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) I like the idea of that. I'm not too knowledgable on metals and spiking, but would a spike made of 2 metals work? Also, Oudeis I think Autonomium sounds better than Autonium. Remember guys, Harmonium is the exception so far. God metals are generally named after the name of the Shard's consciousness when they first appear. So we're probably talking about Bavidinium and Raysium. I think if the two Shards agree on their goals in using the physical manifestations of their power, there should be no issue alloying their God Metals together such that they can be used with any of the Metallic Arts. That said, we shouldn't assume the spike has to be alloyed between multiple God Metals, either. It could even be an alloy of Bavadinium and a base metal. What is making me question Autonomy is Miles quote at the end of AoL where he says "The men of gold and red are coming and You will be ruled by them." Which doesnt sound very autonomous. I'm going to reread both books to see if there's evidence of Miles being spiked or of Paalm talking about Trell. It may be that Miles and Paalm's actions are unrelated and would allay my doubts a little bit. I'm rather partial to Southern Scadrians wearing gold and red, myself. I don't recall that warning being related to Trell- am I wrong? Edited October 19, 2015 by Ari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) His last words after talking about the men of red and gold were 'worship Trell and wait' and it's what prompts Marasi to do some further research at the end of SoS. What that's going to lead to is anyone's guess since what we know from Sazed's description of the religion doesn't seem to match what Miles believed or otherwise provide much help. Though that in turn might be useful if you think that another Shard (like Autonomy) appropriated an existing but not widely followed belief as part of whatever was necessary to create the new spikes. The discrepancy on its own could be evidence of outside meddling. Edited October 19, 2015 by Weltall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 His last words after talking about the men of red and gold were 'worship Trell and wait' and it's what prompts Marasi to do some further research at the end of SoS. What that's going to lead to is anyone's guess since what we know from Sazed's description of the religion doesn't seem to match what Miles believed or otherwise provide much help. Though that in turn might be useful if you think that another Shard (like Autonomy) appropriated an existing but not widely followed belief as part of whatever was necessary to create the new spikes. The discrepancy on its own could be evidence of outside meddling. I really need to refresh on AoL. It sounds potentially like the Gold and Red are forces aligned against whoever our Trell candidate is anyway from that quote, so that actually makes for a stronger argument that Bavadin Is Interfering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CthulhuSpren Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Im not sure if this is correct, or even significant, but weren't lightsong's colours red and gold? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kairos Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 What if it's Cultivation? We know that her Intent, per Brandon, is the most similar to Ruin's, and this plan is almost identical to Ruin's in TFE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Im not sure if this is correct, or even significant, but weren't lightsong's colours red and gold? It could be relevant, ooooor Scadrial is about to be invaded by a horde of Gryffindors. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParadoxicalZen Posted October 21, 2015 Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 I'm of this opinion as well. There's no guarantee he could recognise it due to it being a completely foreign thing to him as it could very well be an attempt to fuse both Investitures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paragrin Posted October 26, 2015 Report Share Posted October 26, 2015 It could be relevant, ooooor Scadrial is about to be invaded by a horde of Gryffindors. Or Iron Men. Or people from my red-and-gold college. (Popular color combo, ain't it?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted October 27, 2015 Report Share Posted October 27, 2015 Red and gold is honestly kinda striking. Can relate. I hate the color gold when it's the main color though. Looks really terrible. Red/white/black accented with gold works best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 I think that the Southern Scadrians will be important. It seems that Trell wants the Northern Scadrians to survive, and for some reason believes that destroying their government will help with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeShroom Posted November 26, 2015 Report Share Posted November 26, 2015 @Witborn Stormlight/Elantris spoilers: I'm fairly certain that god metals corresponding to Honor, Devotion and Dominion can't be ruled out simply because they've been splintered. Shardblades are, after all, made of Tanavastium, so it stands to reason that there are potentially sources for... Aonium and Skaium? Honestly my guess at this point is Cultivation, I just don't have much reasoning behind it, except for that one single line that Edwarn says about ash being a wonderful fertiliser. That's not really much evidence for anything, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted November 29, 2015 Report Share Posted November 29, 2015 @Witborn Stormlight/Elantris spoilers: I'm fairly certain that god metals corresponding to Honor, Devotion and Dominion can't be ruled out simply because they've been splintered. Shardblades are, after all, made of Tanavastium, so it stands to reason that there are potentially sources for... Aonium and Skaium? Honestly my guess at this point is Cultivation, I just don't have much reasoning behind it, except for that one single line that Edwarn says about ash being a wonderful fertiliser. That's not really much evidence for anything, though. So the way Miles and Harmony refer to "Trell" suggests we are looking for an active Shard that is interfering in other worlds' business. Given we also know that "Trell" is a known Shard, that pretty much restricts us to either Odium or Autonomy. The rest goes into spoilers, for very minor commentary on events in Warbreaker, Stormlight Archive, and Elantris, which are more cosmere spoilers than plot spoilers. We haven't witnessed Cultivation do anything to date, so I don't feel she's a strong candidate for interfering on other worlds yet. Endowment also seems pretty pre-occupied with Nalthis, so she's out too. I maintain that the spikes being made of Tanavastium, Aonium, or Skazium (presumably this is the correct name for Dominion's God metal, given that his Splinters are referred to as Skaze) isn't a very likely possibility. None of these three are "Trell" candidates, so why would anyone who's an agent for that shard use their God metals? And Selish God metals are an even larger improbability, as we have never seen anything made of Aonium or Skazium to our knowledge. So we're put in the position where to have anyone other than Odium or Autonomy provide the spikes, we'd need someone to kill a Spren shaped like a spike and smuggle it to Scadrial, which is way too complicated to assume without any hints in the text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnshard Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 I'm pretty sure that Shards have to be invested in the system to be able to influence the magic on a world. Can I see quotes that the other Shards could even make metals that are able to use the metallic arts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 I'm pretty sure that Shards have to be invested in the system to be able to influence the magic on a world. Can I see quotes that the other Shards could even make metals that are able to use the metallic arts? Besides the fact that the new metal in SoS (from a Shard not from Scadrial) makes Hemalurgic spikes? Or am I misinterpreting you? We have this one directly saying that a Mistborn with a tie to Roshar's Investiture could burn a Shardblade for an effect: Elliot Bonneville @unosoid 13h: @BrandSanderson I believe most of your novel worlds are connected. What would happen if a Mistborn ingested the metal of a Shardblade/plate? Brandon Sanderson @BrandSanderson: @unosoid A shardblade is invested. A Mistborn isn't likely to have a tie to that type of Investiture. So probably nothing would happen... (source) There's a few other ones, like trying to burn Nightblood, but they're relatively recent WoBs and so nigh-impossible to find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Besides the fact that the new metal in SoS (from a Shard not from Scadrial) makes Hemalurgic spikes? Or am I misinterpreting you? We have this one directly saying that a Mistborn with a tie to Roshar's Investiture could burn a Shardblade for an effect: Actualy, he just said it wouldn't work :/ . He didn't even say if burning it would be possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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