Oudeis

Shashara's Destiny

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Did Shashara fulfill the destiny given her by Endowment as a Returned?

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Please enlighten me as to what you mean by that

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Lightsong was sent back for the express purpose of healing Susebron, thus averting the Second Manywar. When Stennimar died, he was shown a vision of what the world would look like and how he could be sent back to change it, and he agreed to the terms. He made it to the moment, made the decision, and gave up his life a second time to save the world. From the annotations, his friend (I think her name was Calmseer?) also fulfilled her destiny; she was given the option to Return, and eventually save the life of her own daughter, which she did. (I might be getting details wrong, I'll look up the annotations). The point is, Endowment Returns the Returned for a purpose. We know Lightsong fulfilled his, we know Calmseer fulfilled hers. Both of theirs was to give up their Divine Breath to heal someone. What about the other Returned? Is their destiny always to give up their Divine Breath and heal someone? Is it sometimes to accomplish other things? Lightsong's POV indicated that there was a choice involved, at least at the moment of Returning. Lightsong was shown the future and he decided yes, I will go back and change things. Was he given a second choice? Could he have failed to sacrifice his life for Susebron? Could he have made some mistake in the intervening years and messed up the future? Could he have fallen down a flight of stairs one day and broken his neck by accident?

 

Was that Shashara's destiny? Forge Nightblood, learn Commands, advance the science of Awakening, then be slain by Vasher? Was that what Endowment wanted from her? Or did she go off-script and change things? Did Vasher do wrong by stopping her in her mission? Was Vasher's whole point in Returning to be the backup, to kill her if things went wrong and she broke her leash? If she wasn't fulfilling her destiny, what was her destiny? What had Endowment planned for the Five Scholars, and how did it go so wrong? Or was everything that happened Endowment's plan all along?

Edited by Oudeis
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Hard to say. A big thing in the Cosmere is people's abilities to choose for themselves - though the Divine Breath may be whispering ideas in their heads. It's possible that a custom-made Splinter of Endowment like Nightblood can throw a spanner in the works by killing people according to its Command rather than Endowment's desires.

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They don't necessarily go back to heal someone. Blushweaver saw the impending war and went back to try to marshal forces to defend Hallandren. She didn't need to heal anyone, and Brandon's said that she would be relatively pleased with how things turned out.

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They don't necessarily go back to heal someone. Blushweaver saw the impending war and went back to try to marshal forces to defend Hallandren. She didn't need to heal anyone, and Brandon's said that she would be relatively pleased with how things turned out.

 

Was that in the annotation? Thank you! Although... doesn't this raise some interesting conundra? Blushweaver's actions made it easier for those trying to start the Manywar, to start the Manywar. Yet Lightweaver's destiny was expressly to stop the Manywar. Was Endowment hedging her bets? Am I mistaken in my initial assumption that the destiny is granted by Endowment? Does this Shard simply allow people to fulfill whichever desires they wish, even if they sometimes conflict? The interaction between Blushweaver's destiny and Lightsong's seems... interesting. Was the ultimate plan between them, "We don't want a Manywar, but if we have to have one, we want Hallandren to win"?

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Remember Elend and his Duralumin Atium? What if, when you die on Nalthis with a Breath, the power of that Breath gives you a glimpse into the various possible futures, as Elend was implied to, and you can choose to go back as a Returned to try to guide the future down a particular path. Endowment acts as a sort of judge of these, and gives some a Splinter (the Divine Breath) and lets others through?

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Remember Elend and his Duralumin Atium? What if, when you die on Nalthis with a Breath, the power of that Breath gives you a glimpse into the various possible futures, as Elend was implied to, and you can choose to go back as a Returned to try to guide the future down a particular path. Endowment acts as a sort of judge of these, and gives some a Splinter (the Divine Breath) and lets others through?

 

Interesting... if so, would those with a lot of Breath see farther and be more likely to Return? Would Drabs not have the option of Returning?

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Interesting... if so, would those with a lot of Breath see farther and be more likely to Return? Would Drabs not have the option of Returning?

I believe Brandon has stated that Drabs cannot Return

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If I remember correctly Vasher can become DRAB even though he's a returned. He can give up his divine breath and stay alive.

As far as we know divine breath 'heals' non-returned humans but we've never heard or seen returned giving breath/healing Returned. Most likely it has different effect on returned and that might be the reason why Vasher can do stuff other returned can't.

Maybe Shashara gave him her divine breath and that had some kind of strange effect on him.

I've read WB long time ago and I don't remember why Vasher killed Shashara, but it might not be as simple as it was explained in first book...

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Remember Elend and his Duralumin Atium? What if, when you die on Nalthis with a Breath, the power of that Breath gives you a glimpse into the various possible futures, as Elend was implied to, and you can choose to go back as a Returned to try to guide the future down a particular path. Endowment acts as a sort of judge of these, and gives some a Splinter (the Divine Breath) and lets others through?

Interesting... if so, would those with a lot of Breath see farther and be more likely to Return? Would Drabs not have the option of Returning?

 

I don't think the amount of Breath a person has affects the likelihood of them Returning. (Though Drabs do not Return.)  If I remember correctly the Hallendren are not completely off-base when they say that a person has to die in a special/significant way in order to Return.  Then Endowment shows them a vision of the future and gives them the option of Returning to help change it.

 

Edit: Wow... Double Ninja'd...

Edited by Ookla the Indubitable
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If I remember correctly Vasher can become DRAB even though he's a returned. He can give up his divine breath and stay alive.

As far as we know divine breath 'heals' non-returned humans but we've never heard or seen returned giving breath/healing Returned. Most likely it has different effect on returned and that might be the reason why Vasher can do stuff other returned can't.

Maybe Shashara gave him her divine breath and that had some kind of strange effect on him.

I've read WB long time ago and I don't remember why Vasher killed Shashara, but it might not be as simple as it was explained in first book...

There's a difference between a Returned going Drab and a Drab becoming a Returned. The first is simply the process of hiding a Breath so it cannot be sensed. The second is not well explained at all, but Brandon has said: If you die Drab, you can't Return.

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There's a difference between a Returned going Drab and a Drab becoming a Returned. The first is simply the process of hiding a Breath so it cannot be sensed. The second is not well explained at all, but Brandon has said: If you die Drab, you can't Return.

I wasn't replying to your post... I was replying to OP.

IMO Shashara's purpose for returning was giving Vasher her breath.

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I wasn't replying to your post... I was replying to OP.

IMO Shashara's purpose for returning was giving Vasher her breath.

Oh - sorry

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As far as we know divine breath 'heals' non-returned humans but we've never heard or seen returned giving breath/healing Returned.

Actually, healing a Returned (Susebron) is the only healing we saw "on-screen", so it heals Returned just fine.

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Actually, healing a Returned (Susebron) is the only healing we saw "on-screen", so it heals Returned just fine.

Yup looks like that :( forgot Susebron was returned...

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Was that in the annotation? Thank you! Although... doesn't this raise some interesting conundra? Blushweaver's actions made it easier for those trying to start the Manywar, to start the Manywar. Yet Lightweaver's destiny was expressly to stop the Manywar. Was Endowment hedging her bets? Am I mistaken in my initial assumption that the destiny is granted by Endowment? Does this Shard simply allow people to fulfill whichever desires they wish, even if they sometimes conflict? The interaction between Blushweaver's destiny and Lightsong's seems... interesting. Was the ultimate plan between them, "We don't want a Manywar, but if we have to have one, we want Hallandren to win"?

Actually, do we have basis for assuming Endowment isn't one of the 'bad' shards? Nalthis is one of the least important Shardworlds we've seen so far, in my opinion, but for some reason, I keep considering Nightblood being used in the War of Reckoning and shivering...

I tend to look at Warbreaker as the anti-Mistborn, so Endowment being a reversed Ruin (villainous holder of a good Intent) rather appeals to me.

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213, on 02 Dec 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

I wasn't replying to your post... I was replying to OP.

IMO Shashara's purpose for returning was giving Vasher her breath.

Except Vasher killed her with Nightblood...

I always looked at the process of Returning being alot like everyday life with a schedule.

You die, Endowment wakes you up, shows you the near-future, Endowment OFFERS a second chance to change it, and you CHOOSE to Return and its allowed. Now here is the tricky part.

When you wake up there is no memory to guide you, there is no over riding destiny or Fate. Your life goes on the same as before, you wake, you eat, you talk just like before. But sooner or later the reason you Returned comes around. Maybe all you have to do is give up a Breath. But you could just as likely have to live your life honorably just to inspire someone, to stop the thug mugging Vivenna, so she doesn't starve, so she saves Vasher, etc..

My point is you had a goal when you Returned. You CHOSE that goal, and that goal is your destiny because you made it so. That goal is worked towards, every little thing adds up to it, it is not defined as a singular moment but as a singular purpose.

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Actually, do we have basis for assuming Endowment isn't one of the 'bad' shards? Nalthis is one of the least important Shardworlds we've seen so far, in my opinion, but for some reason, I keep considering Nightblood being used in the War of Reckoning and shivering...

I tend to look at Warbreaker as the anti-Mistborn, so Endowment being a reversed Ruin (villainous holder of a good Intent) rather appeals to me.

I love this idea, but I think that no, we do not really have a good basis for assuming this.

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My point is you had a goal when you Returned. You CHOSE that goal, and that goal is your destiny because you made it so. That goal is worked towards, every little thing adds up to it, it is not defined as a singular moment but as a singular purpose.

 

That is an interesting point... does that mean it's set in stone? Once you choose something, once you pick your destiny, whether it's "prepare the city for war" or "give your life to save your daughter," are you ever allowed to change your mind? Can you lose your nerve? Can you fail? Can accidents happen? If Lightsong had fallen off a balcony and died at some point, he wouldn't have had the chance to give up his Breath. Was that, therefore, impossible? What about Blushweaver? It seems like all she had to do was gather the resources of other Returned. If they were all sent back by Endowment, and Endowment had this one single purpose in mind, why was it so hard? Why couldn't she (I'm guessing gender here) have sent Allmother a brief vision making it clear, "give your command codes to Blushweaver"?

 

And above all this... what then was Shashara's destiny? Did she fulfill it, or did she fail it? Was it to advance the science of Awakening, then go mad and die? Was the "go made and die" bit not part of the plan?

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I got a feeling that if LightSong fell from the balcony, then he dies unfulfilled.

The future CAN'T be set in stone, for instance you see you will have a boy named Josh next year. Instead you name him Jake. It's little, but it can have a huge ripple effect on important events.

So, to me, yes. You can absolutely change your mind about what you want to do with your information of the future. Just cause BlushWeaver wants to prepare for war doesn't mean she has to gather Lifeless Commands. She could go WarBreaker route instead.

In short, just cause you know the destination, doesn't mean you know the journey to get there.

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Has Brandon stated what becomes of a Returned who dies unfulfilled? I imagine that completing you're goal means passing onto the afterlife (whatever that may be). Do those who fail just also go on, or is there some sort of damnation clause the Returned aren't aware of?

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Do Idrian Returned have Destinies? They all die after a week. Do they serve some purpose? Are they given week-long Destinies, or do their destinies by-and-large go unfulfilled?

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Do Idrian Returned have Destinies? They all die after a week. Do they serve some purpose? Are they given week-long Destinies, or do their destinies by-and-large go unfulfilled?

They die because Idrians don't feed them Breath. They're Returned with a purpose, but being that they have no memories when they Return, I think it's fair to say they go unfulfilled.

 

Unless they're supposed to save a child from being trampled by a horse and that child turns out to be Talaxen... :P

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They die because Idrians don't feed them Breath. They're Returned with a purpose, but being that they have no memories when they Return, I think it's fair to say they go unfulfilled.

 

So you discount the theory that they simply have very, very short-term destinies? Does Endowment send them back hoping Idrians will start getting the idea, and start keeping them alive long enough to do Her (yes, I assume she's female) will? Or is it simply a system that's set up, and she cannot affect it due to the unknown restrictions placed upon a Shard's power? Do people Return with certain destinies, and it's up to the people of Nalthis to realize it's a good idea (if, in fact, it is) to sacrifice in order to keep them alive long enough for these destinies to be fulfilled?

 

What do the Hallandren think of Idrian Returned? It's expressly stated that they see Idris as a rebel enclave inside their own borders. Do they believe that when a God Returns in Idris, the Idrian people brutally and profanely allow him (or her) to die? Or do they think that only Hallandren Returned are actual Gods, and they don't care about Idrian Returned?

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