Dalinar's request from the Nightwatcher and the Kholin surgebinders

[Vortaan]

We don't know enough about Dalinar as he was BEFORE Gavilar's death to make a lot of judgements on his value system. How long before Gavilar's death did he stop cutting off the heads of people who disagreed with him? Or was it after? He railed against the Codes, so those weren't a part of his moral structure. Basically, how close was Dalinar to being Sadeas, or Aledar? We simply don't know. We know the man Dalinar is NOW is ashamed of the man he was then. So... that might give us some good hints as to what kind of man that was

[Darth_Hel]

We don't know enough about Dalinar as he was BEFORE Gavilar's death to make a lot of judgements on his value system. How long before Gavilar's death did he stop cutting off the heads of people who disagreed with him? Or was it after? He railed against the Codes, so those weren't a part of his moral structure. Basically, how close was Dalinar to being Sadeas, or Aledar? We simply don't know. We know the man Dalinar is NOW is ashamed of the man he was then. So... that might give us some good hints as to what kind of man that was

 

That's a good point. It would be really interesting if he was ashamed of what he wished for from the Nightwatcher. He could have asked for some boon from her that the current day Dalinar would never want or use, giving up his memories of his wife for basically nothing. Losing his memories of his wife for something trivial or detestable could add to why he changed so heavily after his brother's death.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Darth_Hel

[maxal]

We don't know enough about Dalinar as he was BEFORE Gavilar's death to make a lot of judgements on his value system. How long before Gavilar's death did he stop cutting off the heads of people who disagreed with him? Or was it after? He railed against the Codes, so those weren't a part of his moral structure. Basically, how close was Dalinar to being Sadeas, or Aledar? We simply don't know. We know the man Dalinar is NOW is ashamed of the man he was then. So... that might give us some good hints as to what kind of man that was

 

There are a few things we do know... For one, back in WoK, Adolin talks of how all soldiers, including those being just a few years older than him, had known his father in his time of glory. The interesting part in his comment is the "including those just a few years older than him". Just a few years older than Adolin would bring us, oh surprise, to the time in between the conquest of Alethkar and the death of Gavilar. It does seem the Blackthorn as a few memorable deeds during the years following his wife's death and preceding Gavilar's death.

 

One of my pet theory is Dalinar truly got unloosed following his wife's death. She had a calming effect on him, centering on family life and when she died, he lost it. He got more bloodthirsty then he ever was before, hence the fact he contemplated murdering his brother. However, Dalinar is not a bad person at heart, just a seriously misguided one and one who lacked self-control, so he did manage to shelter his sons from this side of him. Adolin knows next to nothing of the man his father once was, he has a wrong conception of who the Blackthorn is, a vision surely heavily influenced by the father who came home, from warfare, every few months with stories and toys.

[mirahound]

Had you all forgotten Adolin is NOT a surgebinder... and, as far as we know, neither is Elhokar.

True, but considering my favorite theory so far is that Adolin reawakens his Shardblade, that could easily be taken care of. And, though Elhokar is a Kholin, I wouldn't necessarily put him in Dalinar's family. Besides, there are still those weird things he sees in the mirror that are apparently scared of Kaladin.

[Herdazian]

One thing that may be possible. Maybe making almost all of his family surge binders was the curse. It may in the end lead to internal squabbling or it may put them in the path of difficult decisions. This decision may also lead to one or all of them dying on the path of duty except Dalinar to whom the powers then seem like a curse. This could be his turning to the dark side moment. Improbable but possible.

[maxal]

True, but considering my favorite theory so far is that Adolin reawakens his Shardblade, that could easily be taken care of. And, though Elhokar is a Kholin, I wouldn't necessarily put him in Dalinar's family. Besides, there are still those weird things he sees in the mirror that are apparently scared of Kaladin.

 

Yes but if Adolin revives if Blade, then it can't be linked to any oath... If he gained a spren through natural way, I could be incline to consider the theory, but it does not appear as if he will. I sincerely doubt reviving the Blade will have anything to do with any boon or curse. For one, Adolin did not even own his Blade at the time, he was just a kid. How could the Nightwatcher possibly ingrained a mechanism enabling both Kholin boys to be Radiants via an impossible, heavily twisted way, involving a Shardblade Adolin had not even gained yet?

 

Unless you are suggesting winning this particular Shardblade was a ploy from the beginning, but that seems far-fetched.

[Kaladin al'Thor]

Yes but if Adolin revives if Blade, then it can't be linked to any oath... If he gained a spren through natural way, I could be incline to consider the theory, but it does not appear as if he will. I sincerely doubt reviving the Blade will have anything to do with any boon or curse. For one, Adolin did not even own his Blade at the time, he was just a kid. How could the Nightwatcher possibly ingrained a mechanism enabling both Kholin boys to be Radiants via an impossible, heavily twisted way, involving a Shardblade Adolin had not even gained yet?

Unless you are suggesting winning this particular Shardblade was a ploy from the beginning, but that seems far-fetched.

Just had a thought, maybe Adolin will be exiled next book(I know that's a popular theory). But, after learning a little bit of the nature of dead spren from our four radiants, he seeks the old magic. I can see it. After learning that the blade that he respects and has formed a relationship of sorts is semi dead because of some fools broken oaths, he seeks the old magic and asks the nightwatcher to help him revive it. Sorry if that's off topic.

I am fairly certain that either through wob or in the text somewhere, it has been confirmed that Dalinar left to see the nightwatcher shortly after nearly murdering gavilar. I doubt he would have gone to seek the old magic to do it for him (he's the blackthorn and belives his sword is the reason alethkar is united, more so than anything Gavilar did). I think that is the point he realizes he needs to change.

I will research this more later when I'm not on my phone.

[maxal]

Just had a thought, maybe Adolin will be exiled next book(I know that's a popular theory). But, after learning a little bit of the nature of dead spren from our four radiants, he seeks the old magic. I can see it. After learning that the blade that he respects and has formed a relationship of sorts is semi dead because of some fools broken oaths, he seeks the old magic and asks the nightwatcher to help him revive it. Sorry if that's off topic.

I am fairly certain that either through wob or in the text somewhere, it has been confirmed that Dalinar left to see the nightwatcher shortly after nearly murdering gavilar. I doubt he would have gone to seek the old magic to do it for him (he's the blackthorn and belives his sword is the reason alethkar is united, more so than anything Gavilar did). I think that is the point he realizes he needs to change.

I will research this more later when I'm not on my phone.

 

I had thought of Adolin in exile going to the Nightwatcher... but my thoughts were more in the optic of him asking to be removed of all memories of his family, to ask to not be Adolin Kholin anymore. In other words, the pain of losing them and the guilt over thinking he ruined everything will be so harsh, he'll try to get rid of it by seeking the old magic.

 

When his family finally put their hands back on him, he does not remember who they are and who he is. Quite a tragic plot. Probably won't happen.

 

I don't know if he'll try to purposefully revive the Blade... I have always thought it would just happen, but not through any conscious decision making. Anyway, providing he ever goes to the Nightwatcher having this goal in mind, providing the Nightwatcher agrees to grant his boon, it would be completely unrelated to Dalinar's boon more than a decade ago.

 

Dalinar does talk, in text, of that specific day where he nearly murdered his brother out of jealousy and because he coveted his throne. He states how many years age that was, and it seems as if the event happened shortly before he went to the Nightwatcher. There is a link to be made there.

[mirahound]

Yes but if Adolin revives if Blade, then it can't be linked to any oath... If he gained a spren through natural way, I could be incline to consider the theory, but it does not appear as if he will. I sincerely doubt reviving the Blade will have anything to do with any boon or curse. For one, Adolin did not even own his Blade at the time, he was just a kid. How could the Nightwatcher possibly ingrained a mechanism enabling both Kholin boys to be Radiants via an impossible, heavily twisted way, involving a Shardblade Adolin had not even gained yet?

 

Unless you are suggesting winning this particular Shardblade was a ploy from the beginning, but that seems far-fetched.

From what I've seen of Sanderson's work, he manages to make "far-fetched" work really well.  However, I remember someone mentioning a WOB where he says that in order for Adolin to reawaken his Shardblade, he would have to recite the oaths in addition to one other, unspecified action. It could be a boon from the Nighwatcher, either from his father or for himself, would have something to do with that.

[maxal]

From what I've seen of Sanderson's work, he manages to make "far-fetched" work really well.  However, I remember someone mentioning a WOB where he says that in order for Adolin to reawaken his Shardblade, he would have to recite the oaths in addition to one other, unspecified action. It could be a boon from the Nighwatcher, either from his father or for himself, would have something to do with that.

 

I agree we have NO idea what the "something more" could potentially be. It could be he needs something magical such as the Nightwatcher's blessing as his dead-spren is one of her children. I however think tying it to Dalinar old oath is quite far-fetched... Brandon would have lot of work to make that one believable 

[Cemci]

Considering the unique relationship that the Bladespren and their respective Shardbearers have, getting an oath from somebody external (as in a father) wouldn't do the trick. Maybe Dalinar as a bondsmith could do something with his Radiant-powers, but since relationships like Kaladin and Syl's, Shallan and Pattern's are quite private and contained, I find it unlikely that Adolin would need essentially a reference from someone else.

 

It's rare for spren to interact with people other than the humans they're bound to (Syl prefers to stay invisible to anyone but Kaladin, Ivory vanishes whenever Shallan spots him and Pattern typically doesn't speak when other people are near). Considering how close the relationship between the Bladespren and the previous Radiant probably was, I think it takes something else from Adolin, a personal sacrifice or something magical (the Nightwatcher clearly has some sway over Radiant-spren relationships, since Lift can touch Wyndle and eat to regain stormlight).

 

However, all of this is pure speculation, so (maybe) we'll find out in November 2016...

[maxal]

Considering the unique relationship that the Bladespren and their respective Shardbearers have, getting an oath from somebody external (as in a father) wouldn't do the trick. Maybe Dalinar as a bondsmith could do something with his Radiant-powers, but since relationships like Kaladin and Syl's, Shallan and Pattern's are quite private and contained, I find it unlikely that Adolin would need essentially a reference from someone else.

 

It's rare for spren to interact with people other than the humans they're bound to (Syl prefers to stay invisible to anyone but Kaladin, Ivory vanishes whenever Shallan spots him and Pattern typically doesn't speak when other people are near). Considering how close the relationship between the Bladespren and the previous Radiant probably was, I think it takes something else from Adolin, a personal sacrifice or something magical (the Nightwatcher clearly has some sway over Radiant-spren relationships, since Lift can touch Wyndle and eat to regain stormlight).

 

However, all of this is pure speculation, so (maybe) we'll find out in November 2016...

 

I am tempted to agree with you here. I sincerely do not believe the Nightwatcher will have anything to do with reviving the dead-Blade nor do I believe Dalinar's boon/curse has anything to do with his family being surgebinders. I try to keep my options open, but these two are very far down on my list.

 

My thoughts as to what the "something more" may be are either personal sacrifice (meaning being willing to die for the Blade's sake) and/or having a Radiant touch the Blade to install communication... but I am tempted to think Adolin will do this on his own, unknowingly. I also like the idea the Blade will somehow come to his rescue at some point, after the bond deepens some.

 

November 2016 is SO far away and I am not even sure it'll will part of the book... I sure don't expect Adolin to turn a Radiant in book 3, but I do hope we are going to get clear foreshadowing as to his future by the end. 

[Brightlord]

I had the distinct impression that the boon/curse pair was: 
Boon - Forgetting the pain of his wife [agreed]

Curse - Renarin's weakness

 

As the second son in a pair of warlord brothers, it'd make sense that Dalinar would likely see a lot of himself in Renarin, so taking what Dalinar most prized in a person (warrior capability) out of his own second son would be a pretty vicious curse.  There is a point in WoK (I'd be happy to try to locate it, but it's a rather voluminous novel, so that may take a short while) where Dalinar is regarding Renarin and, in his free indirect discourse monologue, seems to feel guilty for Renarin's blood sickness.

 

Edit:

But for now, food for thought.  In Ch61 (mentioned in the thread's OP), Denarin is refusing to explain his curse, and has the following thought:

"What did Renarin think? Would he condemn his father for such an egregious sin? Dalinar forced himself to look up and meet his son's bespectacled eyes."

He seems very concerned, in that moment, about Renarin's forgiveness in particular.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Brightlord

[GoddessIMHO]

Was it the throne Dalinar coveted or the Queen that went with it? I was never sure about that. I did have the impression he was happy with his wife but maybe she found out something??? It is all very mysterious and will likely be part of Dalinar's book.  Maybe his wife killed herself over something that Dalinar did? The Blackthorn was admired by Sadeous so I think he was capible of many dark things.

[maxal]

Was it the throne Dalinar coveted or the Queen that went with it? I was never sure about that. I did have the impression he was happy with his wife but maybe she found out something??? It is all very mysterious and will likely be part of Dalinar's book.  Maybe his wife killed herself over something that Dalinar did? The Blackthorn was admired by Sadeous so I think he was capible of many dark things.

 

Oh suicide. I LOVE that. Of all possible causes of death for Shshshsh, I had never contemplated suicide... 

[Charononus]

Oh suicide. I LOVE that. Of all possible causes of death for Shshshsh, I had never contemplated suicide... 

For some reason I've had a suspicion that Dalinar killed her while drunk and covered it up.  I base this on absolutely nothing however.

[DreamEternal]

For some reason I've had a suspicion that Dalinar killed her while drunk and covered it up. I base this on absolutely nothing however.

That was also my theory, and he asked the Nightwatcher to forget how she died and believe in his own cover-up, wich would also work for suicide if it was because of something he did.

Honestly, that would be the darkest flashback ending ever, but it would fit the man Dalinar was in the past.

Edited October 24, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[maxal]

That was also my theory, and he asked the Nightwatcher to forget how she died and believe in his iwn cover-up., wich would also work for suicide if it was because of something he did.

Honestly, that would be the darkest flashback ending ever, but it would fit the man Dalinar was in the past.

 

Wow. If that turns out being true, then poor Adolin and Renarin when they find out...

[DreamEternal]

On the plus side, the more horrible Dalinar was, the more poignant becomes his change of heart and the highter are the chances some characters(*cough* Mr.T *cough* Szeth *cough* Amaram *cough*) get at least a bit less horrible.

Edited October 24, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[maxal]

On the plus side, the more horrible Dalinar was, the more poignant becomes his change of heart and the highter are the chances some characters(*cough* Mr.T *cough* Szeth *cough* Amaram *cough*) get at least a bit less horrible.

 

Don't you say such things!!! 

 

I don't want Szeth to redeem himself, nor do I want Amaram to do the same. I mean, we have to keep on some villains.

 

Though the new chapter had me wonder over the fact Dalinar did not seem to have paid any price for his crimes against humanity... He was an awful person and by all rights, he should have faced justice. How can he try to enforce it now on other people when he got a free-pass? My heart already hurts over the thought a nice person such as Adolin guilty who lost control over himself may end up paying the ultimate price when a monster such as Dalinar who was not even able to feel anything akin to sadness towards his victims get to be the world most acclaimed man. Just wow.

 

I mean, even Szeth felt bad for those he killed.............  I can't believe I have just said that. 

[Elbereth]

That was also my theory, and he asked the Nightwatcher to forget how she died and believe in his own cover-up, wich would also work for suicide if it was because of something he did.

Honestly, that would be the darkest flashback ending ever, but it would fit the man Dalinar was in the past.

I would quibble with the 'darkest flashback ending ever' bit. I think Shallan's is a little bit worse than even that would be, but I could be wrong. I suppose it would depend on what Dalinar actually did and why.

[Cemci]

Dalinar killed these people during war, which is different to both Adolin's killing of Sadeas in a side corridor and Szeth's deliberate assassinations. I think the premise of war, as well as Dalinar's status as brother of a highprince/king (I'm assuming this flashback may have happened during Alethkar's war of unification) essentially give him a carte blanche in this. Adolin's and Sadeas' fight happened in a side corridor, at a time of peace between the Alethi armies, so technically Adolin did the murdering, not Dalinar. I would still consider Adolin's conduct less terrible, both because Alethi society considers murder acceptable as long as it's not done openly, and because of Dalinar's attitude and callousness regarding civilians in war (which in our universe would be a breach of war-time conduct).

 

We obviously haven't seen the last of Dalinar's boon/curse with the Nightwatcher, but considering that Adolin was seemingly very attached to his mother, and apparently misses her, learning that Dalinar doesn't remember her as a result of his visit to the Nightwatcher could potentially be a breaking point in their relationship. If Adolin were to find out the kind of person the Blackthorn really was, I think Adolin's relationship with his father could collapse, or at the very least radically change. 

[thegatorgirl00]

I don't think that Salinar's boon has anything to do with his family becoming Radiants for one main reason. The Nightwatcher assigns books based on what she thinks you deserve. Would a man as terrible as the Blackthorn really deserve something so great?

I like the idea that shshshsh killed herself or Dalinar killed her while drunk. My other idea was that shshshsh never actually died. She wasn't Alethi; maybe she just got sick of Dalinar as the Blackthorn and went back to her homeland. Dalinar lied to everyone and said she died out of shame and guilt. Or she could have faked her own death before leaving.

[Shardbearer]

Please put spoiler tags around discussions regarding the Oathbringer scene outside of that thread. Thanks.

[maxal]

Dalinar killed these people during war, which is different to both Adolin's killing of Sadeas in a side corridor and Szeth's deliberate assassinations. I think the premise of war, as well as Dalinar's status as brother of a highprince/king (I'm assuming this flashback may have happened during Alethkar's war of unification) essentially give him a carte blanche in this. Adolin's and Sadeas' fight happened in a side corridor, at a time of peace between the Alethi armies, so technically Adolin did the murdering, not Dalinar. I would still consider Adolin's conduct less terrible, both because Alethi society considers murder acceptable as long as it's not done openly, and because of Dalinar's attitude and callousness regarding civilians in war (which in our universe would be a breach of war-time conduct).

 

We obviously haven't seen the last of Dalinar's boon/curse with the Nightwatcher, but considering that Adolin was seemingly very attached to his mother, and apparently misses her, learning that Dalinar doesn't remember her as a result of his visit to the Nightwatcher could potentially be a breaking point in their relationship. If Adolin were to find out the kind of person the Blackthorn really was, I think Adolin's relationship with his father could collapse, or at the very least radically change. 

 

Actually, Galivar was neither a Highprince nor a King back then. Adolin remembers his grand-father, which means the former Kholin Highprince was alive at the time. The unification war started after Renarin's birth. So no, they had no valid excuse. As far as we know, the war they are launching was not warranted. The simple fact their "enemies" did not even know why they were being attacked speaks for itself. They just slaughtered a village for no apparent reason. 

 

Adolin had reasons and while he was not at war with Sadeas, but the man did launch open threads to his princedom, promising endless struggle and blood. One could easily argue the second Sadeas finished his tirade, both princedoms were at effectively at war, which would completely justified Adolin's actions. However, we all know this isn't how it will go.

 

Dalinar was a thousand times worst than Adolin in the sense he did not even know why he killed those people or even who they were! Dalinar has no reasons to justify himself other than the feeble excuse of "It was war.". Based on the chapter, they attacked first and it got worst, he used unarmed women and children as leverage. Children! Are we going to see the Blackthorn round them up in an Ardentia and set fire, but excuse himself stating: "This is war?".

 

War does not excuse everything and it does not justify the seer desire to crush bones, to kill people just because you can which is exactly what Dalinar was doing there. 

 

So no, I will never consider Adolin's simple murder of Sadeas as anywhere close to as terrible of what I have read, war or no war. It was driven by a need to protect people he loved and an inability to keep on containing his own flow of emotions. It does not even begin to resemble Dalinar mindless killing. Besides, Dalinar does even feel the slightest remorse over the bloodbath he created while Adolin is likely to be overwhelmed by guilt.

 

 

This being said, I do agree learning his father forgot all about the mother he dearly misses will be a blow to Adolin. Finding out the grim truth about the Blackthorn as well. I do expect these events to take place within the next book.

Edited October 24, 2015 by maxal