yankorro - 26 November - Manticore Rose 5th and 6th chap

[yankorro]

Heres the topic for my latest thing.

 

As I mentioned in the email I'm looking for:

 

- problems with story mechanics (conflict? motivation?) and any concrete suggestions or ideas for how to change things

- worldbuilding head-scratchers

- stylistic speedbumps

anything else you might feel like commenting on or pointing out

 

thanks!

~NMW

[Two McMillion]

This is getting better as it goes on. We're seeing more development of the world and the characters now, and the piece is better for it. Rose shows off her skills, Prince gets some character development, and the world gets fleshed out a bit. It's getting more intriguing now, but the manticore remains the incongruous element. I'm having a bit of difficulty inserting one into what feels almost completely like a standard western in other respects.

 

The search scene was a little awkward, but you probably handled it as best it could be handled. Good to see Rose take a more active hand in matters there, too. Doesn't seem like women are well thought of in this world, given the discussion of the sheepherds. Not a bad or good thing, just an observation.

 

On the whole, I enjoyed this and look forward to more. Minor typo on page 8, I'm pretty sure Prince's aunt taught Rose, not taunt her.

[Mandamon]

I'm glad they're actually on the search now, but they don't seem to be getting anywhere yet.  There is some good worldbuilding as to what happened with the war/the Crunch (which I think are different things?).  I don't have a very good idea of where they are and how they're traveling.  

 

pg 1:  Which town is this?  The last chapter, Rose was in the mountains with the Hillfolk.  I got the feeling it was sort of rustic with people in little shacks, but no big town or market.

They were in the woods, then in a town, then wandering out in the mountains again, but are they going the same direction?  In a circle?  Zig-zagging?

 

pg 5: Aha! Manticore tracks...no, wait, a false alarm.

 

pg 6: Aha! Surely now the Manticore is...wait, no...just the rocks creaking.

As Two McMillion says, I'm still not convinced there actually is a Manticore.  From everyone's response, it seems more like a folk tale.

 

pg 7:  The list of questions with no context takes me out of the story a little.  Also, it's a very scientific list.  It's too formal for what I get out of the rest of the story.

 

pg 9:  Aaaannnd Prince leaves again.  Aren't they way out in the middle of nowhere?  Where would he go?

Nice to get some more of his history.  Still don't know a lot about where Rose came from and why she was in jail and met Prince's aunt.

[yankorro]

Hey, thanks folks. A few responses here: again, to help me clarify my own thoughts more than to argue or rebut your points.

 

Two McMillion: yes, the Manticore is meant to be a bit incongruous. It's like Bigfoot or the Catty wompus or something like that. And you're right, the 'story world' is markedly sexist in many ways. It's meant to seem like a hostile environment and not just in the sense that they're in the desert...

 

Mandamon: pg1 - They're in Angeltown (it's mentioned in the middle of the paragraph, but I should make that clear in the first sentence I suppose. Thanks for pointing that out). Meaning they head back east to buy supplies, then west again to the settlement. So yeah, zigzagging. Maybe a little confusing...

 

p5,6 - see comment above, it's meant to seem like a folk tale for the time being

 

p9 - They're about a three days ride from the settlement, so it's supposed he headed back that way. Is that unrealistic?

[andyk]

Various slightly disjointed thoughts:

 

I like the details of what's in the store at the start - they give a nice sense of what's happened with the crunch and what remains.

 

The bit with the groping policeman added some much needed conflict, but it felt like Rose got away with it too easily - there was no challenge in dealing with the results of her actions. It didn't feel like she had to flee or struggle to justify her actions against a significant figure in the town.

 

There seemed to be some redundancies again, like bits of dialogue people might really say but that aren't needed in the story, eg. Prince asking Rose what she saw at the Manticore tracks - she could just show him the sketch when she gets back, cutting a couple of lines that don't add much. Though this may just be a matter of stylistic preference.

 

I assume that the list of questions is meant to represent what Rose is writing. What was including this meant to do in terms of story or character? I like the idea of inserting documents like this, but didn't quite get the point of this one.

 

I liked the way this section ended. For the first time it felt like she was on her mission and something happened that could seriously hamper it - losing her main ally. Also, it seemed to emerge naturally out of revelations about their characters.

[andyk]

I couldn't see a thread for commenting on the next instalment, chapters 7 and 8, so I'll leave my thoughts here.

 

I like that there seems to be a bigger plotline brewing in the background with the stuff the journalists are looking into. I assume Rose is going to get drawn into that somehow, and I'm looking forward to finding out more about it.

 

I liked the interaction with the streetlady - it was characterful without slowing anything down.

 

I don't feel like Rose has much of a sense of purpose, and this is a mismatch with her stated obsession with finding the manticore. I'm not sure why she's doing the things she's doing - going back to look for Prince, rescuing the boy, promptly giving up on looking for Prince - there are times when she seems to be doing anything but look for the manticore. As a result I'm not feeling a lot of momentum in the plot. If we got more of an insight into what's going on in her head that might help, though I'm sure there are other ways to deal with this too.

 

The idea that she was going to teach Maxi to read just so he could make notes for her made no sense to me. Teaching someone to read is a huge, slow task, and seems like a big distraction from her manticore hunt. I think that you could drop this and have Maxi already able to read and write, or drop his taking notes and have her try to teach him a little as they travel.

 

I like Maxi as a character. He's interesting and vulnerable, and he highlights a lot of the inequalities and twisted power dynamics of the frontier world. I like the way that you're revealing his character, for example the inquisitiveness that showed in his repeated questions.

[yankorro]

andyk--

 

thanks for posting your impressions here...indeed i'd forgotten to post a topic for the latest chapters, just got around to it.

 

I especially liked this bit: "If we got more of an insight into what's going on in her head that might help, though I'm sure there are other ways to deal with this too." I'm interested in these other ways. I see exactly what you mean but I'd like to find a more sophisticated way of doing it than sticking in a sentence that says "Rose went to find Prince because she was sad to see him go" or "Rose felt compelled to adopt the boy to replace Prince", you know what I mean? Some way of clueing in the reader without coming out and "tell"-ing them. That's the hard part, I guess...you've given me something to think about though!!!

[andyk]

I used to be extremely reticent to include my characters' thoughts and motivations in the text, but I find now that, as long as I don't overdo it, a bit of it can help. It doesn't have to be 'Rose did this because...'. You can say that Maxi looks pitiful, or reminds Rose of someone from her past, and then when she helps him the reader will already be clued in as to why. Actions too - if she tries to track the manticore without Prince but finds she's getting nowhere and getting frustrated then decides to ride back to town, right there we know why she's doing it. And in both cases it reveals character too.

 

Just the first ideas off the top of my head, to see if they help spark ideas of your own!

[Robinski]

My comments on these chapters are noted below, but I’ve kind of skipped ahead by reading Andy’s comments on Chp.7 and 8, and your response. Can I take it that you think it’s unsophisticated to include your characters’ thoughts? Only if you do it in an unsophisticated way, you can leave hints, or just a couple of reactions here and there, even describe what their features are doing to imply (but not explicitly state) what their thoughts are. It can be in the tone of their voice, a sound made in the throat or a gesture, twitch of the lips. Without a trail of emotional breadcrumbs to follow through the story, it is difficult to invest in the characters and root for them. What do I care if Rose finds the manticore, I don’t know why she’s looking for it or how it will change her life.

 

Contrast this with the fact that I really care how Rose feels about Prince’s anger when she showed something of her feelings towards him. Did he completely miss the point, reacting angrily to her use of palmistry, overlooking the apparent message in what she was saying, or was that a ruse used by him to avoid facing the fact that she likes him? She must have these thoughts surely. She’s a young girl, inexperienced in romantic relationships, and seemed to show some real vulnerability in that exchange, but the emotional fallout is hidden from us. I think we need to see how his rebuffing of Rose sharing her feelings and his consequent departure affect her morale.

 

Also, I have to disagree with Mandamon about the questionnaire. I think it reveals something about Rose’s character, showing an earnest and organised side. It provides what is almost light relief in its different tone (or voice), and yet it shows her planning systematically towards her goal, in the same way as her mapping and sketching. I think it’s entirely consistent and not out of context at all.

 

Suddenly I realise that I'm not sure what age Rose. You mentioned her being disowned at age 16, and I think that stuck in my head, and I suspect I may have been thinking of her as younger than she actually is. What is the age difference between her and Prince? I think it would be worth clarifying her age by mentioning (or just suggesting) in the introduction how long ago she was disowned.

 

--------------------

 

Chapter 5

 

It sounds like Rose has two baskets and two sacks, one in each hand.

 

I go back to an earlier comment that I made about the source of Rose’s funds. How much money does she have, where does it come from? Sounds like she bought a lot of stuff, how much cash does she have left?

 

I had difficulty with ‘What seems to be the trouble?’ – It’s a cliché when spoken in response to a police officer’s enquiry.

 

"I'm fine," she said. "You get the permits?" – Sorry, my old hobby-horse, there is no outward trace of emotion in Rose, and we don’t know her thoughts, so it’s as if she has calmly accepted the indignity of the guard’s attentions. We don’t know if she is satisfied at having taken revenge; worried about repercussions or fuming mad, although this last is slightly implied by Prince’s question.

 

‘It is Is it just me...’ in the last line of the section.

 

Where did Prince get all that money from, he told us that he was financially challenged earlier, did he not? Also, there is no way they could get to the stage of having the horses all saddled and ready to go before Mercedes thinks to question the fact, and I don’t see that Rose would just presume she could take the horses, she doesn’t seem so presumptuous, but then I don’t know that because I know very little about what she thinks and feels.

 

Refer to my earlier comments about the lack of discussion between Rose and Prince about his coming along, and planning of the trip, etc. Also, what will Rose do now that she has used the tranquiliser on Bobby? Also, if the tranquiliser was strong enough to handle a manticore, what effect would it have on a human boy? There was no mention of this.

 

I don’t think ‘surpassed’ is the right word here. Possibly just ‘followed’ – ‘circumnavigated’ is way too grand.

 

What are the ‘shadowlands’ and what is a ‘windgap’. ‘Windgap’ I'm guessing is a narrow cleft in rock, wide enough for them to ride through, which the window would blow through a make a suitably eerie sound, possibly a feature formed by the wind?

 

You’ve got a real thing with ‘one-eyed’ individuals – Prince and his monocle; the stallholder with the eye patch; and now this fellow missing a lens from his glasses. I'm now starting to wonder if there is some kind of conspiracy I should be watching for.

 

There’s a real disconnect when you go from ‘Rose began to talk to them.’ straight to the man’s reply. I think the first part is unnatural and redundant, better just to have Rose say something. The man gives a reply to a specific question, that’s clear from what he says, why can’t we just hear that question?

 

I'm still enjoying the writing, notwithstanding my comments. There is a good example of why right here. Rather than just having Rose ask who saw the manticore, you have the other goatherd interject. I think that’s quite subtle. It implies that, for all their closeness in working together, and spending long tracts of time together, there are certain things that (apparently) one at least, doesn’t share with the other one. The reader can start to imagine what that is. Is he having an affair with Barbara?

 

Anyway, something doesn’t feel right here. The goatherd knew that Barbara had said she had seen the manticore, but not that he knew where the place was, but he lets them talk about going to Barbara, which is miles away, rather than just saying to begin with, ‘I know someone who says they saw the manticore right around here.’ Then, based on the fact that he has not himself seen the tracks before now (because he only says that he knows someone who had seen it,) he is able to take Rose straight to the right place.

 

Also, it seems to me very ungentlemanly of Prince to say he will stay behind and leave Rose alone with some guy they don’t know. It seems to me that he would do it, but better if she asked him.

 

At last, a little bit of insight into Rose’s thoughts a she considers how she might proceed, but WHY IS SHE DOING IT?

 

Prince has just popped the bubble of her enthusiasm by giving his assessment of the tracks as being made by a cougar, but there is no reaction from Rose, no facially expression or reveal of her thoughts. Surely, she would be angry, frustrated, melancholy, disbelieving, upset, but we don’t see any of that, it feels to me like being locked out of a major (possibly the most important) aspect of the story.

 

Arrrggghhh. ‘Rose put that out of her mind...’ Rose puts everything out of her mind! Or that’s what it feels like anyway.

 

I have trouble thinking of Rose as frail given what she’s been through, and her reaction to the policeman’s unwanted attentions.

 

Chapter 6

 

Ha ha, I like the questionnaire, very good, unexpected and original.

 

I really like the phrase ‘War on Texas’. Did you use it because of the similarly with ‘War on Terror’, or is that just a happy coincidence? (rhetorical question)

 

Another frustrating passage for me here, Rose asks the question of Prince about another War on Texas, but instead of it being the start of an interesting conversation which reveals things about both their characters, and perhaps something about how they look at the other, it immediately fizzles into nothing. The centre of any story is the people in it and their relationships with one other (which will contain the conflicts and their accords). Even if we do know something of the very basic reason for Rose and Prince being together, we don’t know what their feelings are, or how they might have changed since they met.

 

Having read five and a half chapters, I'm now pretty sure that this will continue throughout the story as a picturesque account of the mechanics of Rose’s search for the manticore. It’s not enough for most readers, and therefore not enough for publishers (I would imagine). What do you want in the stories that you read? I'm looking for passion, conflict, fear, doubt, failure, bravery, inner turmoil, guilt, love, sacrifice, etc. I'm not getting these from your story. I'm fine with the pace, I'm enjoying the style, but I want more from the characters, certainly the main ones.

 

Hurray! At long last some emotional ‘delivery’, but because there has been no build-up to this point, no foreshadowing if you will, it feels very sudden. It’s well handled, don’t get me wrong, your description of Rose’s realisation nicely conveys the emotion that you’re revealing, it’s just that we’ve gone from nothing for five chapters, to her suddenly falling for him.

 

I thought that was a really well handled scene. Prince’s rebuttal of Rose’s 'advance' (I'm not quite sure what it was, as she seemed to introduce friendship and refute romance as the basis for it) is rooted in the background to the story, both his (being that of his family) and hers (and her days in prison with his aunt). That is a real conflict but, ultimately, we don’t know what Rose’s reaction to his outburst is. She apologises, but her words could be spoken in anger or in sadness, we don’t know, then she stays awake for a long time, but what is she feeling?

 

 Good dream ‘sequence’ and great punchy ending to the chapter – unexpected (for my part at least).