Mid-Range Game 9: The Steel Ministry

[Wyrmhero]

I am going to hold off on my vote for now, and see what other people say.

 

 What can other people say? It's not as though we have any evidence to go off on the first Cycle. Well, aside from what people post. But that's an incredibly reactionary way to play the game. If everyone said that, then no-one would actually say anything. We need more discussion, not less, and it always has to start somewhere. Venture Mistborn sounds like as good a place as any to begin.

 

Also, are we going to have to retread the same debate about whether a first Cycle lynch is a good idea? I suppose it's as much preference as anything else (I don't know if/how one could prove which was better), but if we don't have a unanimous decision, then it's a pointless thing to attempt. Anyone can prevent this by voting, after all. And it's not as though we can Seek the Skaa out either. The lynch is our only real way to find them, unless we happen to get lucky enough for a Tineye to be hit by the Skaa kill and a Lurcher all at once. So discussion is our main weapon - let's use it.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Wyrmhero

[the winter system]

Sophia rested against a table, tapping the spikes in her eyes. They still felt strange. Pulsing with a foreign pain. She thought she'd known what to expect- sort of. Still. Very different than anything she'd experienced before. The first accusation hurled with a lightning speed. 

 

One of the other Inquisitors, one of the older ones, watched her. She felt it eerie. 

 

"What is your name?" She asked the older Inquisitor, finally. 

"Kae," said the Inquisitor. 

Huh. Sophie moved towards the discussion. 

 

"Are you skaa?" Someone asked. "You? You?"

 

Skaa. In the Canton of Inqusition. Seemed impossible. But yet, the skaa had done it. Filthy skaa. Something needed to be done. Something involving a large sword. And blood. And a head. Separated from a body. 

 

--

Yes, I support Day 1 Lynches. It is the only way to gain more information. I'm not voting yet but I will vote later. Also, just for the record, I don't agree with the Contribution Crusade. 

[Amanuensis]

@Gamma: to mitigate any future confusion, may you please change my name from Alvom Halbin to Adavantos in the player list? Thank you.

 

Before I say anything else, I want to bring something to all the inquisitors attention. Since we are unable to utilize personal messages this game we are at a severe disadvantage compared to the skaa. Instead of each Cycle being divided into a Day and Night Turn they are combined, which means that the skaa have constant access to their private document. Therefore it is essentially impossible for us to coordinate [without the skaa knowing] while they can conspire all they want without risk of their plans leaking out to us [unless they deliberately release anything in-thread]. With this in mind I ask all inquisitors be especially wary of manipulation, paying close attention to all player’s voting patterns and communicative tendencies throughout the course of the game.

 

I think a “debate” on whether or not we should lynch someone on the first cycle is a good idea, as typically it keeps people talking. Though doing so likely won’t reveal anyone, as I believe that most people’s opinions on this subject will transcend their alignment, the sooner we begin establishing a rapport as a group the better.

 

So on that subject I could swing either way. Personally I am not fond of player’s being lynched without solid evidence set against them, and the chance of us hitting a skaa with our first vote is extremely unlikely [varies on the reason why we chose the target]. However, as Winter has pointed out, we don’t really gain any information from doing nothing either. Instead we end up waiting to see who the skaa kill, which will likely tell us little to nothing because they’ll either take out a more experienced player [also known as a fear kill], someone who has been openly opposed by their fellow inquisitors [in order to implicate them], or someone who hasn’t posted much, if at all, so that we learn nothing or nothing of note.

 

Unless something significant develops in the next ~40 hours, a first day lynch is going to ultimately be little more than a numbers game. Which is why I think we should also toss out thoughts about the alignment and role distribution.

 

Given there are a total of 26 players, it can be reasoned that 5 or 6 of those are skaa, depending on the percentage of total player’s Gamma decided to use. It’s also possible that there are only 4 total if they were ‘stacked’ with powerful roles. Personally I am going to assume 6 until it is proven otherwise, for the sake of keeping me on my toes.

 

There are a total of nine guaranteed roles, with the potential of a tenth (atium) that’d likely only go to one player. As I only received 1 allomantic ability I am going to also assume that there are no players with two hemalurgic spikes sticking out of them. I can’t remember if this has been asked or specified already, but Gamma, can we know if there are any players who received no abilities? As there are a limited number of charges, I would not be surprised if there are multiple coinshots and rioters, though I severely doubt there are more than two of them. I would then guess that the other seven roles would have 3 each, bringing us to our total number of players.

 

This would offer the most variety of roles among the group without breaking the game (I think) but it is likely extremely off. While it may be what I have done if I were GM, I am neither experienced or knowledgeable enough to know if this would work. So I would like to ask all players who have run a game or two [a few] in the past, what they may have done if they were in charge, and what monkey-wrenches they would expect Gamma to throw in, if he would throw any.

 

If we end up selecting a player to lynch randomly or on a whim, there is a 75-80% chance we will kill one of our own. Then there’s also the danger of us taking out a role that might be useful to the inquisitors. Though the 20-25% of removing a skaa from the game might be tempting, it’d likely do more harm than good.

 

While I am against the Contribution Crusade in its current form, I support my interpretation of it wholeheartedly. Targeting inactives is not a particularly helpful strategy. A lot of us have lives that exist beyond this forum that require disparate amounts of attention, and I’m sure I’m not the only one who realizes how unpredictable it can be. I think it’s wrong to kill someone because they can’t contribute, but I am all for it if they won’t. What I am referring to is the lurkers and those who post comments of little to no worth.

 

If we are unable to weed out skaa among those who give something of themselves to the conversation, than those we need to question are the silent observers and the off-topic talkers. On the latter’s note, there is nothing wrong with making the occasional joke, rant or tangent, but I ask that if you’re going to post it, don’t post it alone. You don’t have to tell us all of your secrets, but please try to be open with some of your thoughts.

 

We have a lot of time to sort out our first move as a collective and as individuals. Let’s try not to squander it, yeah?

 

 

 

EDITED TO FIX GRAMMAR / SPELLING

Edited October 19, 2015 by Adavantos

[Sart]

"Hmm..."

Mar loved a good mystery. A skaa hiding among the Steel Inquisition was fascinating. What did they hope to gain from it? They couldn't succeed versus the might of the Inquisition. Still, the hunt was always fun. It was almost as fun as the punishment. Not quite as fun as the pain, but almost. He couldn't wait to hear their screams. Stupid skaa. It would be easy for him to find them. The obvious suspects were people he hadn't recognized. If they were still hiding, well, it wouldn't end well for them. He did love the smell of blood in the morning.

 

He stood up from examining the body.

"Right then, Ailyth, where have you been hiding? I want to see your pretty face again."

 

He grinned lecherously, and hobbled away.

 

We have a lot of new players this game, which is awesome. However, I want to make sure all of you contribute to this game. Just post to this thread with some roleplay or discussion and I'll take my vote off of you. Remember, you're about a fourth of the village, so we need your help.

[the winter system]

By the way, the eliminator doc is usually open all day and night. That was just for that particular game. 

 

Advantamos, 

 

Paragraph 1:
Isn't that what we usually do anyway? 

Paragraph 2:
Ditto.

Paragraph 3:

I agree.

Paragraph 4:

Is this important, really? 

About Contribution Crusade:
I think this is a good idea, but also don't lynch just because someone doesn't have enough time for analyisis. There are people who play off of gut feeling alone, myself formerly included. Honestly, I'd say people who do little to no worth isn't as much of a sign of an eliminator as you think because the eliminators will probably know that and try to avoid it. 

[Kipper]

Venture Mistborn sounds like as good a place as any to begin.

Wyrm, that's an incredibly reactionary way to play the game. Literally all Venture Mistborn did was say that he was not going to vote. How does voting for him foster discussion? It's not like he can come back and thoroughly defend himself, because he's done absolutely nothing. I don't like D1 lynches, and I especially don't like them when the reasons for votes are cleverly masked in a call for more "discussion," without actually discussing anything at all. You say you want discussion, but when it comes down to it, you call out someone else for not discussing, and do not actually provide discussion.

 

Edit: And ninja'd x4

 

Edit the Second: Retracted vote on Wyrm.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Kipper

[the winter system]

The point of pointing out something like that is to raise discussion. It is useful, even if it usually ends up with a vote on you. 

[Amanuensis]

@Winter: I was not aware that most of our games here include a 24/7 Evil Doc. I suppose that impression was left on me by my first game, further supplemented by my understanding of the original mafia and my temporary obsession of ToS.

 

P1: Yes, this is usually [or at least should be] what we do. However - as mentioned by Sart - there is a noticeable number of new players this game, so I was mainly trying to draw their attention to a fact they may have overlooked and provide some guidance on what they should do throughout the course of the game.

 

P4: Is it important? Maybe not. I personally believe it’s worth considering so that we may realize what advantages we have versus what the skaa can use against us. Because of the fact that the Seeker can only find out what metal a player is burning / if they targeted someone or only themselves, it would be useful for them to have an idea of what roles the enemy might possess.

P5: Though I agree it isn’t necessarily a sign of an eliminator, I believe that - just as Hero was attempting to inspire players to be active by killing inactives - it will inspire players to attempt some kind of helpful contribution, which should mostly benefit the village. A skaa obligated to speak may end up slipping, or a player who would otherwise be quiet may bring a new perspective that other players would have never found on their own.

 

 

 

EDITED FOR JUSTIFICATION

Edited October 19, 2015 by Adavantos

[A Joe in the Bush]

"Right then, Ailyth, where have you been hiding? I want to see your pretty face again."

We have a lot of new players this game, which is awesome. However, I want to make sure all of you contribute to this game. Just post to this thread with some roleplay or discussion and I'll take my vote off of you. Remember, you're about a fourth of the village, so we need your help.

Usually you're a Smart guy, but in this case you're not. Poke votes like that are useless. A player can post some irrelevant RP without contributing, and have that vote removed. If you're going to vote, than vote. I won't be removing this vote unless I find a good reason to suspect someone, or there's a tie, in which case I'll ensure a lynch.

Edit: Sart when did you change your name?

Edit: retracted vote.

Edited October 21, 2015 by The Only Joe

[Creccio]

I am not a fan of day 1 lynches. We have no information to base our decisions on and no one has had a chance to actually gain information. We might just kill a Skaa, yes, but we might also kill the one player with the Atium powers.

 

Day 1 is a coin toss and I'm firmly against lynching anyone today. It makes no sense from a information point of view and from a math point of view, lets put it like this, we have 5 boxes, one of them is a Skaa, do you trust yourself enough to pick the right one? Mind you i believe there is 5, not 6 as Adavantos has pointed out, and, 5/26 = 0.19 or 19%, so even my box example is giving us a 1% advantage.

 

I think we should not kill anyone today, that's just depriving any information they might have for tomorrow.

[the winter system]

We get information from who votes for whom in combination with who dies, though. 

[STINK]

But on day one there is so little information to get from that, as everyone gets the mentality of "We voted for someone and they were evil, so therefore everyone who didn't vote for them is really suspicious" or "We voted for someone and they were innocent, so therefore whoever voted for them is more suspicious". 

[Sart]

 

Usually you're a Smart guy, but in this case you're not. Poke votes like that are useless. A player can post some irrelevant RP without contributing, and have that vote removed. If you're going to vote, than vote. I won't be removing this vote unless I find a good reason to suspect someone, or there's a tie, in which case I'll ensure a lynch.

Edit: Sart when did you change your name?

 

 

 

I just changed it after the last quick fix. One of my eliminator teammates got confused by my nickname, and advocated voting for "a smart guy" since he didn't realize we were on the same team. I decided to change it after that. Plus, my old nickname was kind of presumptuous.

 

Anyways, you're misunderstanding the purpose of the vote. I just want the new players to read the thread. I hate it when we have a player come back on Day 5 and ask, "What did I miss?" If we have the new players posting Day 1, we can be reasonably sure they will be active, and in the future they might have some insight. It's in the village's best interest for everyone to be active, especially because of the limited uses of metal. I don't expect us to get much accomplished today, so I just want to make sure every player has seen this thread. Yes, it doesn't help the village right now, but it can definitely help in the long run.

[Amanuensis]

@Kipper. Based on the context of Wyrm’s post, I don’t believe he was trying to imply that we should lynch Venture, but discuss him. I’m going to go ahead and guess that the reason he added the vote to it was to emphasize it and see how people would react. I don’t think anyone would honestly suspect Venture to be evil off of that first sentence alone. It’s just as Winter said, he did that to instigate conversation. Though you’re right, he didn’t provide any real discussion on that subject in particular, he did bring up a few other things of note. We already have players putting down their opinions of a first day lynch (or in some cases, implications). There is something else that he said worth drawing attention to, though.

 

@Wyrm: To clarify, burning tin will only tell the user one random player who visited them, so there is no guarantee that even that would give us a solid lead, as it’s possible the person he sees is the lurcher who saved him. That makes me wonder, Gamma; if a lurcher saves someone, who do you tell? Both players? Only the Lurcher? Only the target? Is it announced in the following write-up?

 

@Sart: Does this post mean you support day one lynch's, as well as [some interpretation of] the Contribution Crusade? Though I always appreciate RP, it’s not very helpful on its own. And while I believe it’s noble of you to encourage new players to participate, I think the way you are going about it is wrong, let alone poorly timed.

 

@Joe: I take it you support a day one lynch then, Joe? [based on you’re last statement of ensuring a lynch].  If so, could you explain to me why?

 

@Sart [again]: I fail to understand your logic in your second post. Just because you put a player’s name in red doesn’t mean they’re suddenly going to be aware of the thread. It’s still very early in this cycle and unless you know more about Meandbooks than I do, they could very likely be in a timezone far away and still asleep or preoccupied with work at the moment. As such, I think this poke vote makes the least sense of all. If you are going to poke anyone in order to get them to talk, how about you target the players like Orlok or Clanky, who I have caught viewing this thread several times but still haven’t said anything?

 

 

 

EDITED FOR COLOR CHANGE

Edited October 19, 2015 by Adavantos

[nicocoberru]

Coco had dream, a goal, when she arrived at Luthadel. Became an Inquisitor, climb to a high position, elevate her house's position. It seemed easy enough and, when she descended down the caves, she almost had it within her grasp. Almost.

"How dare they do this?" Coco whispered to herself as she glare at the offensive stone that blocks their way out. "They are Skaa. Nothing but Skaa. When will their slow minds realize that?"

No one answered, she doubt they heard her. There were a lot of them, her fellow Inquisitors-to-be. All of them strangers to her. Someone had lit a candle but it had done nothing to chase away the darkness. Instead it enhanced it, the shadows on the walls and in everyone's faces making their situation look even more grim.

Coco stood in one corner, watching the whole crowd. Everyone had been silent for a for some time before one spoke and, after him, more followed. A few accusations flew, and one even gave out a small speech complete with numbers and statistics. How he came up with those figures, she'll never know, but everyone seems more certain of what they were doing, a feeling that she doesn't share.

Still. She was a noble. An allomancer. One of The Lord Ruler's people and she would rather suffer in the Pits of Hathsin then let some poor, flea-ridden, dirty skaa trample on her pride.

I am also not fond of Day 1 lynches due to the same reasons. But I do have to agree that the discussion it generates is important. At the very least it will get people talking.

Oh and, we have a huge storm in here. If I don't login for a few days it's probably due to power outage. Pretty sure it's not gonna happen but I don't want to be killed due to inactivity *coughcontributioncrusadecough*

Edited October 19, 2015 by nicocoberru

[Sart]

 

@Sart [again]: I fail to understand your logic in your second post. Just because you put a player’s name in red doesn’t mean they’re suddenly going to be aware of the thread. It’s still very early in this cycle and unless you know more about Meandbooks than I do, they could very likely be in a timezone far away and still asleep or preoccupied with work at the moment. As such, I think this poke vote makes the least sense of all. If you are going to poke anyone in order to get them to talk, how about you target the players like Orlok or Clanky, who I have caught viewing this thread several times but still haven’t said anything?

 

A difference in time-zones is the main reason for a poke-vote. I can't be in this game 24-7, so I have no way of knowing if they looked at the thread when I wasn't around. I have no way of knowing if they actually care about this game. A poke-vote strongly encourages them to post to the thread, which is concrete evidence that they are paying attention. It's not about the Contribution Crusade. I'm trying to invite new members into the community. We have a stable group of regulars, but I want to see our section of the forum continue to grow. A new book just came out, so it makes sense that we're getting more activity. I just want to make sure that activity lasts. If that means voting for them, then I'll do it.

[Wyrmhero]

@Wyrm: To clarify, burning tin will only tell the user one random player who visited them, so there is no guarantee that even that would give us a solid lead, as it’s possible the person he sees is the lurcher who saved him. That makes me wonder, Gamma; if a lurcher saves someone, who do you tell? Both players? Only the Lurcher? Only the target? Is it announced in the following write-up?

 

Oof, good point. I'd forgotten that it wouldn't even guarantee them seeing their attempted murderer (not that I was banking on it being useful anyway, considering the number of events that have to line up for it to succeed, it was mostly to show how impossible it would be to get proof).

 

For what it's worth, since we are having the old debate. Let's assume 5 skaa for the purposes of easy numbers, and entirely random lynches. If we lynch someone today, we have a 5/26 or 19.2%, as Creccio has said before. If we lynch no-one and the skaa kill succeeds, we have 25 players, and it becomes 5/25, or 20%. Why are people arguing for a 0.8% flat increase to our chances? That is effectively what it is. What does the skaa kill tell us other than 'experienced player X is not a skaa', since that is usually what happens?

 

Kipper, are we going to be at each others' throats again? . You say I call people out for not discussion, and that it would not provoke discussion, but what is this if not a discussion? I voted for Venture Mistborn because he said that he would wait for people to say things, which is basically a pointless post, and ignores the fact that discussion has to start somewhere. I wanted to draw him out and provoke discussion from him. What else could make him say something than someone accusing him, after all?

 

What this has told me is two things: Firstly, you're willing to vote for someone despite not advocating first day lynches (I admit, there may be good reason for that, though I find it interesting), and secondly, you jumped to Venture Mistborn's defence. It might mean nothing, this is true, but evidence like this is what is required if we are to get anywhere.

 

Edit: For what it's worth, and I probably should have said it before the game started - I am now working, so don't expect me to be anywhere near as active as I usually am (no longer loafing around at home all day at university ), and due to work, will not be around on Wednesday. Hooray for staying at work until Midnight...

Edited October 19, 2015 by Wyrmhero

[Orlok Tsubodai]

My views on day 1 lynches are probably already known to those of you who have played with me before; I was rather outspoken in MR8.

Let's look at the two potential outcomes of day 1, in a game without PMs.

1) We decide not to have a day 1 lynch. Little discussion occurs - why would it - there is no evidence to lynch anyone on, no allegations that can hold water, and so people do not engage. During the night, someone is killed by the eliminators. Day 2 comes round. We again have no information - we were unable to glean anything from the eliminator kill, as there is no discussion to base inferences off. We again face the same situation as day one, in which we have no information on which to base the lynch, except that we are an additional villager down.

2) We have a lynch discussion, force players to defend themselves, and have the opportunity to see patterns and differences in play styles, for those players who have played before.

In addition to the information we glean from this, we stimulate discussion, again, forcing exposure to the thread, and force the eliminators to play reactively - picking a target to make us believe something - and even if we are wrong in our deductions, it allows us to build up evidence as to how the eliminators are playing. The alternative is that they pick someone irrelevant to the discussion, and therefore having the discussion keeps our active players alive.

The disparity in information held or obtainable by the village in scenario B dramatically outweighs that of scenario A. This is, in my mind, absolutely worth the small risk of hitting a player with a valuable role.

Now, in terms of voting. Wyrm, your vote on Venture does indeed seem rather uncalled for. In both MR6 and MR8, Venture did not so much as post until after the first cycle had ended. In QF9 and 10, whilst he posted, he did not do so until a large amount of discussion had occurred. In all these games, he was a villager. Whilst his behaviour in posting so early is unusual, and I shall follow him with interest, he is very definitely a reactive player, and voting on him based on an unchanging characteristic seems slightly wrong.

Edit: removing typos, and replacing A and B with 1 and 2 - B with ) is apparently an emoticon.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Orlok

[Amanuensis]

Speaking of a difference in time zones, I am about to go to bed myself [though I have an alarm set for 5 hours from now so that I can begin downloading Tales of Zestiria, since that’s when it will be officially released on Steam - yay].

 

Before I go I will be removing my vote off of Orlok. I noticed that you had been browsing several old games and was curious to see the reason why. I’m guessing from your post that you were analyzing Venture’s past playstyle.

 

Within the last hour I have witnessed several other players view this thread without posting, as well as one who has yet to wander over here but is viewing the community index [whatever that is exactly]. Their names are as follows: Clanky, Araris and Alfa; The Honey Badger. These are just those I have noticed, and it is possible that I have missed others. If those who will be active across the next 8 hours can reel in their attention, in addition to anyone else who appears before my return, I would appreciate it greatly.

 

Alfa, I see you bouncing around forums a lot, though you still haven’t said anything. Do you have a reason why? What are your thoughts on the subjects being discussed so far? I don’t think you’re evil, I just want everyone to participate, and of everyone I named you seem the most active given how many threads you’ve looked recently.

 

 

EDITED FOR COLOR

Edited October 20, 2015 by Adavantos

[Zephrer]

The unease that filled the cavern was contagious. Two Inquisitors had been murdered. Murdered!

How was that even possible?

Serech looked suspiciously at each of the individuals. "None of these fools have what it takes to join the inquisition. Half of these incompetents would faint at the thought of blood, let alone the sight of it." He muttered to himself.

His thoughts turned to the murders, and the implication of the Skaa.

"how could they do this?!" Serech raged, "The Bloody Skaa need to learn their place!"

The caverns would run scarlet with Skaa blood. No matter how they tried to hide, he would find them.

After all, that is the inquisitions job, isn't it?

Well, I don't see much to say that hasn't already been said... But I'll add my opinion. The chances of killing a Skaa are low since we don't have any information that might implicate someone, and we risk killing one of our own.

That being said, we can learn a great deal from a lynch first cycle. We can play it safe and not kill anyone, but we run the risk of missing valuable information.

I think it's worth the risk. But I'll refrain from voting until I either have a good suspect for this cycle or someone can convince me that the risk is too great.

[the winter system]

Honestly, I think it's just Venture acting like Venture. He has a habit to join things like this and only do one or two line responses.

EDIT: Not saying that's not what I'm doing too or anything. 

Edited October 19, 2015 by Winter Cloud

[A Joe in the Bush]

@Joe: I take it you support a day one lynch then, Joe? [based on you’re last statement of ensuring a lynch].  If so, could you explain to me why?

There are no Cop roles. There are No PM's. The eliminators have no reason to kill anyone except to win the game. (That sounds weird, but I mean they don't need to kill a specific person because they're a certain thing or know something). Eliminator kills will tell us nothing. So if we wait until day 2 to lynch, we'll be in the same spot. Still no info. Lynching is literally the only way to gather information in this game. (Unless, like wyrm said, a Tin misting gets lucky.)

[Mailliw73]

Alv, did the PoJ come true from your end?

Edited October 20, 2015 by Mailliw73

[A Joe in the Bush]

Remind me what the PoJ is?

[Mailliw73]

You were in the PM.