theory [OB] Renarin's Visions and Truthwatching [Moved and Updated for OB!]

[Steelheart]

On 12/6/2016 at 0:59 AM, maxal said:

I am personally within an agreement with Feather: something is wrong with Renarin's visions. I have had doubts ever since I read this WoB she posted and I have to admit, clues with respect to Renarin do seem to indicate "something else" is at work with him. Mind "something else" might not mean "Odium" or "evil", but I am growing increasingly convinced Renarin's doomed visions of the futures aren't linked to his Truthwatcher powers.

Why? The following contains spoilers for Edgedancer.

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Because of Ym. Because of Stump. For the longest time, Brandon has been lip tight as to which order Ym belonged to. I have wondered why. Why such a big mystery? After all, Ym is dead, why does it matter to keep it a secret? Why not tell us? Why?

I have had many theories as to why, but in the end, it seems Brandon merely didn't want us to know Ym has been a Truthwatcher. He has also RAFOed a question on Glys's appearance. Why? I had thought it might have been because he hasn't canonized it yet, but I then realized it was because it would have told us Ym is a Truthwatcher as Glys most likely look similar to his former spren.

So why not tell us about Ym? Why couldn't we know?

Well, I cannot presume to know, but I am starting to think it has to do with the visions: neither Ym nor Stump seem to have them. If they did, surely it would have come across within their section of the books... Surely having doomed terrible vision of the future is not something any character can keep silent... They too might have done a countdown, but both seem so... peaceful. 

 

It is thus I now think Renarin is the unlikely and unwilling recipient of those visions. Who sends them? I do not know, but I do think he was chosen merely because he happens to be Dalinar's son. Among Dalinar's close family members, he was the only suitable one to carry them, so he got them. 

It has nothing to do with being a Truthwatcher, but of course, this is mere theory making. I have been famously wrong on pretty much everything, so I might be wrong about this too.

 

In Edgedancer (spoilers), didn't Wyndle mention he was supposed to be Bonded to a shoemaker? If so, how could he have made Ym a Truthwatcher, while making Lift a Edgedancer? 

[Yata]

2 minutes ago, Steelheart said:

In Edgedancer (spoilers), didn't Wyndle mention he was supposed to be Bonded to a shoemaker? If so, how could he have made Ym a Truthwatcher, while making Lift a Edgedancer? 

Simply Wyndle was about to bond Ym to make him a Edgedancer, He was sent to Lift and another Spren...a Truthwatcher's one found Ym as a good truthwatcher's candidate.
Simply Ym was a good candidate for both orders...this could happen

[Beatsmorn]

3 hours ago, Yata said:

As I tried to tell you before, that idea of the Resonance has fallacies at his main concept as mostly all the Resonances we saw don't affect directly the Surges (or they didn't affect the Surges at all).
We don't know deeply the Resonances, but what we see allow us to figure something of them

PS: Is Shallash the one who destroys art, but it isn't really relevant here.

As I tried to tell you before, we don't know which abilities of KR are effect of Resonance, and it is highly improbable that they all are Resonances.
[EDIT]
I mean, Perk KR has is not always related to their Surges and Heralds or Spiked Surgebinders could have different or none of them.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Beatsmorn

[The One Who Connects]

24 minutes ago, Beatsmorn said:

As I tried to tell you before, we don't know which abilities of KR are effect of Resonance, and it is highly improbable that they all are Resonances.
[EDIT]
I mean, Perk KR has is not always related to their Surges and Heralds or Spiked Surgebinders could have different or none of them.

We know for a fact that the Windrunner Resonance is "Strength and Number of Squires" and I believe Brandon confirmed that Lightweaver's "enhanced mnemonic abilities" was their Resonance. We don't know the Resonances for the other Orders, but we hardly know anything about the other Orders either.

Regarding your edit: The thing is, we do know that the Heralds get the exact same Resonance as their KR Order. And as the main similarity between them is they have the same powers, a Spike-made Surgebinder should also get the same Resonance.

As for Resonances themselves: Brandon describes them as "things that do not add up from simple the "you get this power plus this power," there is something else going on." 2 Years later, he says that "they have kind of effects on each other, like a reverberation. I wouldn’t call it expressly a third power, I’d call it interactions." Both of these responses are in regards to the KR and their Surge interactions, so consider these as you wish.

[Beatsmorn]

I get it. I've read these WoB before, i just interpreted them differently. I think I'll just wait for the Oathbreaker for answers, I hope those powers will be delved more there.

It will be pretty hard to wait for autumn. 

 

[DrakeMarshall]

Okay... I've finished reading your initial post.

You raise some... Interesting points.

I always figured Renarin's future sight was a resonance between his two surges. Not surgebinding in of itself, but related. A bit like the photographic memory of all lightweavers (not related to surges), or perhaps also similar to that time in the arena where Kaladin felt he could have closed his eyes and still fought just as well.

And, in truth, I still think there's a good chance that this is a resonance.

But... The way you present the details, you highlight a second possibility to me. This could actually be the influence of a hostile shard, namely Odium (or perhaps more specifically the unmade responsible for prophetic death rattles, moleach).

On the other hand, it is worth noting that even when Renarin is completely succumbed to his vision, he is expressing fear and describing the everstorm as terrible. If his visions came from something of evil intent, why would he express such horror in the everstorm, even after totally losing control to the visions?

I'm also wondering about Sanderon's "evil grin" before that RAFO.

I can't help but suspect that this isn't a resonance, but neither is it the influence of Odium... It is something entirely different. Hmmmm....

I would say this is cultivation's influence, but I'm convinced that Cultivation's primary agenda is being served by Taravangian.

[KnightofLight]

Hey there! I thought this was very interesting and I don't know if I missed it in the post but didn't Syl (a honor Spren) say that seeing the future wasn't of honor but of something else...something evil. It's not a direct quote but if Glys is his Spren then it must be of something other than honor or cultivation. I think that he is being used by either void Spren or something we haven't heard of yet

[Carolus Rex]

On 4/18/2017 at 0:05 PM, Beatsmorn said:

"Dalinar's and Renarin's visions are incredibly similar actually. Both are involuntary and unable to be resisted. Both involve visions. Both have an element of compulsive actions, as Dalinar moves and speaks in other languages and Renarin has an almost hypergraphic need to write during his visions, despite that Renarin probably hasn't ever written before this. They also appear to both be tied to highstorms, since they happen at the same time.

Perhaps most telling is the fact that Dalinar seems to think that Renarin's future-sight is his own up until the reveal, and that he simply can't remember it happening. 

That said, there are differences. Dalinar sees the past, Renarin sees the future. Dalinar is completely unaware of the real world while in the midst of his visions. Renarin seems to know and be aware of what's happening to him, even though he can no longer control his body. Dalinar seems to act out what he's experiencing, Renarin writes."

I think this is just amazing comparison that FeatherWriter made, but that's more behind this. On Surgebinding graphs we see both Bondsmith and Truthwatchers opposed to them, dividing graph on two parts, upper one, representing Orders which spren/bonds are of honor primarily, which Heralds are male, and lower one, which spren/bond are primarily of cultivation, and which Heralds are women. This would make the Bondsmith as connected mainly with Honor, and Truthwatchers as connected with Cultivation. Cultivation sees future, Honor sees past. This just melds so amazing with Shards' Intent (Honor - preserving tradition, ideals, oaths, Cultivation - maintaining progress, life, beauty). We don't know Oaths of Truthwatchers, but Oaths of Bondsmiths are totally in line of it (Honor binds, Bondsmith binds and unite people). Tanavast also states that Cultivation is good in seeing the future.

Looking for holes, Windrunners bind with honorspren and Edgedancers bind with cultivationspren, and spren of Bondsmith is quite unique (Stormfather was of Honor, but Nightwatcher is probably of Cultivation, if not Cultivation herself), so one may say that if it was the case, they should have visions instead. However i think connection to Shard is based more about the Oaths and Ideals that order represents, than type of spren they are bound to. So, Bondmiths, Windrunners and Stonewards would be of Honor, Truthwatchers, Edgedancers and Lightweavers of Cultivation, and rest would be their combinations. IMO this fits perfectly.

It can be that this is just a misinterpretation, and Dalinar and Gavilar visions were one-time event, sent by Honor to prepare humanity for Desolation, but i think that indead there are pretty solid similarities between them and Truthwatching.

What I've always thought is that the Bondsmiths (all three of them) bond with the "spren" of each Shard. This might not make sense until you realize that there are 3 Bondsmiths total, 3 Shards on Roshar. Also, if Bondsmiths are supposed to unite people, why would there be 3 different Bondsmiths? Shouldn't there just be 1? This makes me wonder if Dalinar has bonded with Honor (Stormfather), maybe Tanavast with Cultivation (Nightwatcher), and an important bad guy (idk who though, maybe Eshonai or the scholar lady?) with Odium (Some unknown great spren).

[The One Who Connects]

Just now, Joshua Sharp said:

Tanavast

Tanavast was Honor. Up til he got splintered and his cognitive shadow merged with the Stormfather. Otherwise, your idea doesn't have any fundamental holes in it that I can see.

[Carolus Rex]

4 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Tanavast was Honor. Up til he got splintered and his cognitive shadow merged with the Stormfather. Otherwise, your idea doesn't have any fundamental holes in it that I can see.

Who the crazy king, then? Taravangian. Sorry, I can never remember his name.

[+Extesian]

2 hours ago, Joshua Sharp said:

What I've always thought is that the Bondsmiths (all three of them) bond with the "spren" of each Shard. This might not make sense until you realize that there are 3 Bondsmiths total, 3 Shards on Roshar. Also, if Bondsmiths are supposed to unite people, why would there be 3 different Bondsmiths? Shouldn't there just be 1? This makes me wonder if Dalinar has bonded with Honor (Stormfather), maybe Tanavast with Cultivation (Nightwatcher), and an important bad guy (idk who though, maybe Eshonai or the scholar lady?) with Odium (Some unknown great spren).

This is a popular theory and fits with the numbers, but I've always doubted it. Firstly, Bondsmiths predate Tanavast's death so one would have bonded with the Stromfather which at the time was not merged with Honor's cognitive shadow. Secondly, you can have surgebinderd that aren't Radiants, so having three that are Radiants says the order itself deliberately has three - in that case why would one be bonded to the bad guy? Why would you have someone bonded to Odium's spren as a member of the order?

So I think the three Bondsmiths are bonded to three super spren of certain natural or invested phenomena inherent to Roshar. One is of the Highstorms. I have no idea what the other two could be, which is why I've never posted a theory on it. But I just feel it's unlikely to be based on the three Shards.

[Calderis]

@Extesian Wait, you can have surgebinders that aren't Radiants? Barring the Honorblades, how exactly? Access to the surges is given by the Nahel bond. Without following the ideals that attract the Spren, you lose the ability to surgebinders... They may not be a member of an official group, but I don't understand how they would be a non-radiant in anything but name...

[Toaster Retribution]

13 hours ago, KnightofLight said:

Hey there! I thought this was very interesting and I don't know if I missed it in the post but didn't Syl (a honor Spren) say that seeing the future wasn't of honor but of something else...something evil. It's not a direct quote but if Glys is his Spren then it must be of something other than honor or cultivation. I think that he is being used by either void Spren or something we haven't heard of yet

There does seem to be wierd stuff surrounding seeing the future, since it is tabooed in Vorin society, and Syls dislike of it adds to that as well.

However, Syls opinions are not always fact. She does not like lying either, but Shallan and Pattern pretty much feed of lies. So Syl is pretty biased, and not always right. She seems to have a pretty black-white worldview.

But there is definitely something wierd with seeing the future on Roshar.

[The One Who Connects]

15 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Extesian Wait, you can have surgebinders that aren't Radiants? Barring the Honorblades, how exactly? Access to the surges is given by the Nahel bond. Without following the ideals that attract the Spren, you lose the ability to surgebinders... They may not be a member of an official group, but I don't understand how they would be a non-radiant in anything but name...

The sentence structure implies that they meant to type "can't." It'd make more sense at the start of their sentence:

"...have surgebinders that aren't Radiants, so having three that are Radiants says the order itself deliberately has three..."

I could very well be wrong, in which case we require an answer Extesian.

[KnightofLight]

9 hours ago, Chull #445 said:

There does seem to be wierd stuff surrounding seeing the future, since it is tabooed in Vorin society, and Syls dislike of it adds to that as well.

However, Syls opinions are not always fact. She does not like lying either, but Shallan and Pattern pretty much feed of lies. So Syl is pretty biased, and not always right. She seems to have a pretty black-white worldview.

But there is definitely something wierd with seeing the future on Roshar.

I see your point. I know that cryptics and honor Spren apparently don't like each other but I was just surprised by her wording and even more so when I found out it was renarin doing the count down. Either way I'm pretty confident in saying that one of Dalinars sons will end up a villain. 

[Carolus Rex]

15 minutes ago, KnightofLight said:

I see your point. I know that cryptics and honor Spren apparently don't like each other but I was just surprised by her wording and even more so when I found out it was renarin doing the count down. Either way I'm pretty confident in saying that one of Dalinars sons will end up a villain. 

Which son, though? I can make a case for either of them. Adolin is idolizing his father (in my opinion), and his faith might break, and turn him against Dalinar. Renarin is kind of shady in that we don't seem to know much about him besides the fact that he can see the future, has a shardblade, and wants to be useful.

[KnightofLight]

4 minutes ago, Joshua Sharp said:

Which son, though? I can make a case for either of them. Adolin is idolizing his father (in my opinion), and his faith might break, and turn him against Dalinar. Renarin is kind of shady in that we don't seem to know much about him besides the fact that he can see the future, has a shardblade, and wants to be useful.

Even tho I really like Adolin and I love when he killed Sadeas but his way of murdering him was a 180 degree turn of what Dalinar would of done. The action was justified but it was a really dark moment in my mind. So I'm leaning toward him

Edited April 22, 2017 by KnightofLight

[Carolus Rex]

2 minutes ago, KnightofLight said:

Even tho I really like Adolin and I love when he killed Sadeas but his way of murdering him was a 180 degree turn of what Dalinar would of done. The action was justified but it was a really dark moment in my mind. So I'm leaning toward him

Makes sense. Adolin is "interesting".

[maxal]

2 hours ago, KnightofLight said:

Even tho I really like Adolin and I love when he killed Sadeas but his way of murdering him was a 180 degree turn of what Dalinar would of done. The action was justified but it was a really dark moment in my mind. So I'm leaning toward him

*sigh* 

How I disagree. I make more sense for either Renarin and/or Elhokar to turn villain than Adolin. Adolin, I don't see it, not in a million of years.

[+Extesian]

5 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

The sentence structure implies that they meant to type "can't." It'd make more sense at the start of their sentence:

"...have surgebinders that aren't Radiants, so having three that are Radiants says the order itself deliberately has three..."

I could very well be wrong, in which case we require an answer Extesian.

Hm I didn't expect that part of it to be controversial though I didn't define it properly. What I meant is we know we can have people who manipulate 'surges' and not be Radiants. Voidbinders. The difference is that they bond with voidspren, rather than Honor/Cultivation spren. Here we're talking about a Bondsmith bonding with an Odium superspren. I don't see why that wouldn't be a Voidbinder rather than a member of an order of Radiants. There could then be a corresponding order of Voidbinders that bond with Odium superspren but I don't see how one would be a Knight Radiant. Does that make sense?

I thought the stronger argument anyway was the one about Bondsmiths being around before Honor's splintering. But as always in happy to be corrected if there are known flaws with either idea!

[Farnsworth]

2 hours ago, maxal said:

*sigh* 

How I disagree. I make more sense for either Renarin and/or Elhokar to turn villain than Adolin. Adolin, I don't see it, not in a million of years.

I can't see Adolin being intentionally evil. I could, however, see him being misguided. Kind of like Moash, who ultimately thought he was doing the right thing.

[Toaster Retribution]

I dont think that either one of the Kholin sons will be evil, at least not intentionally. Misguided yes, controlled by Odium, also yes, but I doubt that they will be evil. 

I can see them take on antagonistic roles in the story, but that is not really the same as being evil. An antagonist opposes the hero, yes, but you can oppose the hero for good reasons. I would call Moash, Graves and Mr. T antagonists, but I would not call them evil. I suspect that a similar situation might arise with Adolin or Renarin.

Of course, if Renarin is controlled by Odium (or an Unmade), his actions will be evil. But that will be the one controlling him, not Renarin.

[KnightofLight]

11 hours ago, maxal said:

*sigh* 

How I disagree. I make more sense for either Renarin and/or Elhokar to turn villain than Adolin. Adolin, I don't see it, not in a million of years.

Elhokar isnt Dalinars son but I see reason for both. Another reason that I lean towards adolin is that Kaladin and Shallon might have something going on there. So add jealousy to the mix. Also he is alone in the main characters as not being a surgebinder. So fear of unworthyness as well. Adolin does some of the most admirable things in WoK and WoR which makes me like him a lot. It will be all the more heart breaking if he turns "dark side" for lack of a better term

[maxal]

9 hours ago, Figberts said:

I can't see Adolin being intentionally evil. I could, however, see him being misguided. Kind of like Moash, who ultimately thought he was doing the right thing.

I don't see Adolin ever becoming misguided as Moash: Adolin just doesn't have it in him to purposefully hurt others to achieve a goal. He would never think a man needs to die for incompetence just because he indirectly caused someone he loves death. If he were susceptible to such pressure, he would have opposed Dalinar for allowing the Tower massacre to happen.

5 hours ago, Chull #445 said:

I dont think that either one of the Kholin sons will be evil, at least not intentionally. Misguided yes, controlled by Odium, also yes, but I doubt that they will be evil. 

I can see them take on antagonistic roles in the story, but that is not really the same as being evil. An antagonist opposes the hero, yes, but you can oppose the hero for good reasons. I would call Moash, Graves and Mr. T antagonists, but I would not call them evil. I suspect that a similar situation might arise with Adolin or Renarin.

Of course, if Renarin is controlled by Odium (or an Unmade), his actions will be evil. But that will be the one controlling him, not Renarin.

I can see Renarin and/or Elhokar being controlled by Odium, but not Adolin. The reason for it is Adolin's weaknesses (the fear of disappointment, the fear of not being good enough for love) aren't ones Odium could readily and easily use to control him while the desire the be useful and the desire to be perceive as great are incredibly easy to manipulate for nefarious means. The only aspect of Adolin which could lead to manipulation is his fear of change/novelty: if he gets scared enough of the Radiants, he might see fit to oppose them though considering they also are his family, it would extremely almost impossible to truly steer him into the role of an antagonist.

30 minutes ago, KnightofLight said:

Elhokar isnt Dalinars son but I see reason for both. Another reason that I lean towards adolin is that Kaladin and Shallon might have something going on there. So add jealousy to the mix. Also he is alone in the main characters as not being a surgebinder. So fear of unworthyness as well. Adolin does some of the most admirable things in WoK and WoR which makes me like him a lot. It will be all the more heart breaking if he turns "dark side" for lack of a better term

Elhokar is spoiled, childish, arrogant, full of himself and thinks the whole world ought to bend to him because he is king: he is baffled it isn't happening and he asked Kaladin how to proceed, not to be a good king for his people, but to become someone others veneer. He cares for nothing for the people he rules and/or for the soldiers who die for him: it is their duty to die. I see those characteristics as the easiest to manipulate and/or use by evil influence. Also if Elhokar ever grows a backbone, there is no telling if he will support his uncle.

Adolin however would never oppose his family, would never range himself against his father: even when he thought he was mad, he didn't oppose Dalinar, he merely urged him to stop listening to the visions. Also, Adolin's reaction to jealousy isn't one which forces him to behave in nefarious ways. When feeling jealous an unloved, Adolin just works harder to comply to what he feels is expected of him hoping if he ever becomes good enough, he'll be love once again. Also, I feel. when faced with Shallan preferring Kaladin, Adolin will just wither away, withdraw because he already feels he doesn't deserve to be loved. 

The problem with the "Adolin turns to the dark side" theory is it is inconsistent with the character's alignment. Adolin takes death very seriously: he is clearly affected when his soldiers die. He hates it, he mourns them and I fear the more will die, the more unsettled Adolin will be because he just doesn't have it in him to be a soldier. Oh, he can kill, fight, lead and everything, but witnessing the whole death thing, he doesn't have it. Thus, for him to be "evil" would need him to purposefully seek to harm others, to kill others for no valid reason then push an agenda and this is so strongly against everything the character stands for, he would never do it.

 

 

[KnightofLight]

Very insightful. Gave me a lot to mull over. I don't think he will be evil persay, I should have changed my wording there. I do think he will play an antagonistic role at some point tho. We saw it with Kaladin already when he nearly kills Syl to satisfy his own version of what is right. But he doesn't kill the king! He comes to his senses even tho the kingdom will be better with Dalinar at the throne. Adolin however goes through with murdering Sadeas. Am I the only one who threw up a red flag at that scene?