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IIRC, i think the Stormfather says the Visions were from him as an instruction from Honour in-book, or it might have been a WoB. Didn't Gavilar also get the same ones?

 

In Renarin's case, I think visions might be one of the quirks attributed to each Order; that or perhaps he received a boon/bane from the Nightwatcher at a young age, young enough that he doesn't remember.

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While I'm fairly convinced by the rest of the post, I'm pretty sure that you completely failed to account for the unique combo abilities referenced in the SoS Ars Arcanum in the post. Now, given the rest of thevidence, I'm inclined to go with your theory anyway, but that's a little hold you gotta plug up. Cover your bases and all that. Otherwise you might get people heckling you about that....

 

...Not that I'd be opposed to you enduring some frustration. 

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IIRC, i think the Stormfather says the Visions were from him as an instruction from Honour in-book, or it might have been a WoB. Didn't Gavilar also get the same ones?

 

In Renarin's case, I think visions might be one of the quirks attributed to each Order; that or perhaps he received a boon/bane from the Nightwatcher at a young age, young enough that he doesn't remember.

 

Yes, Dalinar's visions are from the Stormfather and yes, it's likely that Gavilar got the same ones. 

 

Which... brings me to my little personal working theory, which I didn't have enough evidence to put up in the main post. You know what I think Renarin's visions really are? I think they're very possibly from Odium. See, there's a bit of follow up on that WoB. After I asked my questions about Ren's visions being involuntary and if they were surgebinding, Brandon turned around and said this:

Brandon: Okay, can I ask you a question?

Feather: Yes... okay?

Brandon: Do you remember what Vorinism thinks of seeing the future?

Feather: Yes! They think it's evil, of Odium. Hence why I was asking in the first place! I'm very concerned.

Brandon: *laughs*

 

Of course, the idea that my baby has been hijacked by Odium is completely horrifying to me, especially because it means that this fic of mine is just that much more plausible. AUGH.
 
Shroom has similar thoughts about Surgebinding quirks, so I'll answer that below. As for the Nightwatcher, I'd be very surprised if that were the case. You have to be able to ask the Nightwatcher for things yourself, which I think rules out the possibility of him being so young he can't remember. Also, who would take him that far? Why would anyone bring a tiny child halfway across the continent to ask for a boon/curse?
 

While I'm fairly convinced by the rest of the post, I'm pretty sure that you completely failed to account for the unique combo abilities referenced in the SoS Ars Arcanum in the post. Now, given the rest of thevidence, I'm inclined to go with your theory anyway, but that's a little hold you gotta plug up. Cover your bases and all that. Otherwise you might get people heckling you about that....

 

...Not that I'd be opposed to you enduring some frustration. 

 

 

Okay, so my thing about Surgebinding quirks and power combos is this: I think it's plausible that Truthwatchers have a power quirk, but I can't believe that their "quirk" would be something as devastating and powerful as all-consuming visions which overwrite their users' free will. Not with what we've seen of Regrowth and Illumination so far.

 

Now, I won't write off the possibility that maybe the Truthwatcher quirk is involved here. Maybe whatever's behind the visions managed to get to Renarin because he has some Seer abilities as a Truthwatcher? He was the easiest conduit because he's one who "sees"? I think that's actually really plausible.Maybe his quirk power is tapping into something. Or being exploited by something. Maybe one of the Unmade. Maybe, as I kind of am growing fond of believing, Odium himself.

 

But I refuse to believe that the visions as we've seen them so far are a natural and normal expression of Truthwatcher abilities. I can't believe that the involuntary, compulsive nature of them could be explained by Surgebinding alone. It doesn't line up with what we know of Surgebinding.

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Now, I won't write off the possibility that maybe the Truthwatcher quirk is involved here. Maybe whatever's behind the visions managed to get to Renarin because he has some Seer abilities as a Truthwatcher? He was the easiest conduit because he's one who "sees"? I think that's actually really plausible.Maybe his quirk power is tapping into something. Or being exploited by something. Maybe one of the Unmade. Maybe, as I kind of am growing fond of believing, Odium himself.

 

Now that you mention it, something just clicked in regards to the Renarin's speech patterns during the visions, Death Rattles and the Unmade responsible for them. I can't remember if it was via WoB or was an opinion/view offered by a Sharder but there was something about that the Unmade responsible can't control what is said or whatever it was, mind is blanking so I can't remember. Basically what I'm getting at is when Renarin's speaks of the vision content during the visions, it is rather vague and clipped similarly to the Death Rattles, although it is more focused on events occurring at that time and place so perhaps there is a link. I wish i could remember where that Unmade info was or what it was actually about

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Now that you mention it, something just clicked in regards to the Renarin's speech patterns during the visions, Death Rattles and the Unmade responsible for them. I can't remember if it was via WoB or was an opinion/view offered by a Sharder but there was something about that the Unmade responsible can't control what is said or whatever it was, mind is blanking so I can't remember. Basically what I'm getting at is when Renarin's speaks of the vision content during the visions, it is rather vague and clipped similarly to the Death Rattles, although it is more focused on events occurring at that time and place so perhaps there is a link. I wish i could remember where that Unmade info was or what it was actually about

 

Yeah, if not Odium himself influencing Renarin's visions, I would definitely count one of the Unmade as a close second choice.

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Which raises the question; Can it/they determine what he sees? *cuedramticsuspensemusic*

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Which raises the question; Can it/they determine what he sees? *cuedramticsuspensemusic*

 

I'm... honestly under the impression that it/they are the reason behind what he sees. Whether or not those visions can be trusted is an entirely different question.

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Renarin isn't alone in this; Kaladin also has uncontrollable "visions" in the form of his highstorm adventures. Adding Dalinar into this (who was bonded to the Stormfather "a while" before the end of WoR), I'm inclined to think it's not Surgebinding, but it is a perk all the Radiants get.

 

(Shallan doesn't have uncontrollable visions, but she does draw events that are happening elsewhere - in WoR, she draws Shallash destroying a statue, and Yalb surviving the shipwreck.)

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I recall Honor saying something about Cultivation being better at seeing the future than he was, during one of Dalinars visions. Since all or most Spren were made by Honor and Cultivation together i think it's reasonable to assume that Spren that are closer to Cultivation might be able to give the ability to see the future. 

 

Kaladin's visions are involuntarily, he only sees what the Stormfather does (i assume) because Honorspren are a lot closer to Honor than Cultivation. The same goes for Dalinar's visions. 

 

If we assume that Renarin's spren is closer to Cultivation, i think it's reasonable to assume that his visions are a side effect as mentioned in the SoS Ars Arcanum, that is closer to Cultivation.

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I... I made a different theory about the visions. One that ties them into the Truthwatcher progression. While I am still thinking about the points you made in your post and can't argue against it for now, I want to show my personal thoughts about the visions.

The Occultation Revelation Theory

Edited by CognitivePulsePattern
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The thought Renarin's visions may be tied to Odium has crossed my mind one several occasions. While I absolutely have no argument to push one way or the other, I have considered the fact Renarin may end up being the one falling prey to Odium, ultimately. 

 

This being said, I personally lean towards them being linked to his progression, as CognitivePulsePattern.

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“Ah,” said Rushu— a young female ardent with long eyelashes and buttonlike lips. “Look at the sloppy lines! The improper symmetry. Whoever did this is not practiced with drawing glyphs.They almost spelled death wrong — it looks more like ‘broken.’ And the meaning is vague. Death follows? Or is it ‘follow death’? Or Sixty-Two Days of Death and Following? Glyphs are imprecise.”

 

– Ch. 4 Taker of Secrets

Improper symmetry? Hmm... Does this remind anyone else of the surge glyphs on the "voidbinding" chart?

 

I might be looking too much into that...

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Improper symmetry? Hmm... Does this remind anyone else of the surge glyphs on the "voidbinding" chart?

 

I might be looking too much into that...

I understood that like Renarin has just bad writing.

As for the being controlled/involuntary part, I personally think that he has more of compulsive need to convey information about what he sees than being controlled by it.

As for the Truthwatchers' Surges use, I never noticed that Trutwatchers should simply use Illumination and Progression; but wouldn't it be a little boring if the Orders would be capable of exactly the same things?

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What if renarins visions are because he is cultivations chosen? Sort of like how the storm father shows dalinar the past the cultivation remnant chose renarin to see the future.

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What if renarins visions are because he is cultivations chosen? Sort of like how the storm father shows dalinar the past the cultivation remnant chose renarin to see the future.

You want to say that Renarin is special within the Truthwatcher's Order and an ordinary Truthwatcher can't see the future ?

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We literally don't know anything about the Truthwatchers except that they are very secretive, have the Surges of Progression and Illumination, and Renarin is one of them. That's it.

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Renarin is one of them.

 

Technically, we don't even know that. :P

 

Brandon has explicitly RAFO'd Glys' appearance.

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We apparently know more about Trell than the Truthwatchers.

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Now, I won't write off the possibility that maybe the Truthwatcher quirk is involved here. Maybe whatever's behind the visions managed to get to Renarin because he has some Seer abilities as a Truthwatcher? He was the easiest conduit because he's one who "sees"? I think that's actually really plausible.Maybe his quirk power is tapping into something. Or being exploited by something. Maybe one of the Unmade. Maybe, as I kind of am growing fond of believing, Odium himself.

 

But I refuse to believe that the visions as we've seen them so far are a natural and normal expression of Truthwatcher abilities. I can't believe that the involuntary, compulsive nature of them could be explained by Surgebinding alone. It doesn't line up with what we know of Surgebinding.

 

If this is correct, it kind of makes me wonder what Odium's goals are here, aside from just sowing fear and despair.  Is there something about the Truthwatchers that's dangerous to him?  Something that Renarin could potentially "see" that would give them an edge?  Perhaps enough for him to hijack and mess with the mind of and/or discredit the only potential Truthwatcher we've seen thus far...

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(Shallan doesn't have uncontrollable visions, but she does draw events that are happening elsewhere - in WoR, she draws Shallash destroying a statue, and Yalb surviving the shipwreck.)

Wait wait wait! Yalb for sure survived the shipwreck?! If so you just made my day. Him and Lopen are two of my most favorite toons.

But on topic. Ive never even considered tht Rens visions were from anything other than his nahel bond. That would be so awesome if it was of Odium or an Unmade. But considering he has Glys, and he/she (Glys could easily be a femanine name, too) is explaining wht is happening to him, just like the other Radiants weve seen, Im more incline to go with him just being a Truthwatcher.

Maybe its a voidspren? Masquerading as a regular spren? Not sure if a voidspren would have the cognitive faculties to pull tht off, but maybe.

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I always wondered if Surgebinders can "unite" their own two Surges in a sort of 'special ability', unique to each Order... but I have noticed no evidence to support this idea. So, I think it's reasonable assuming that Renarin's visions aren't related to Surgebinding: I like this theory.

 

Anyway, like others have pointed, I'm more inclined to think that the visions are of Cultivation instead of Odium.

 

There's this idea of Orders being either closer to Honor or Cultivation with the Bondsmiths closest to Honor and the Truthwatchers closest to Cultivation.

So if Dalinar is receiving visions from Honor it's plausible to assume that Renarin is receiving visions from Cultivation: after all, Tanavast himself (or, at the least, his shadow in the vision) said that Cultivation is better than him at watching future.

 

There's this little problem that foreseight is of the Voidbringers... but what about Odium making mankind think so?

 

“[...] The priests began to claim visions and prophecies, though such things had been denounced by the Heralds themselves. Voidbinding is a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was to try to divine the future.”
Adolin froze. “Wait, you’re saying—”
“Don’t get ahead of me please, bright one,” Kadash assured, turning back toward him. “When the priests of the Hierocracy were cast down, the Sunmaker made a point of interrogating them and going through their correspondences with one another. It was discovered that there had been no prophecies. No mystical promises from the Almighty. That had all been an excuse, fabricated by the priests to placate and control the people.”

 

WoK 18 - Highprince of War

 

Kadash says that try to divine future is the soul of Voidbinding... but both Honor and Cultivation, at an extent, can see future.

He says that there were no promises from the Almighty... but there are with Dalinar (well not promises, but you get the point) unless we think there's Odium behind them.

 

So I think the idea of divination being of the Voidbringers is false: Odium instilled it (maybe hijacking the Sunmaker) to prevent case like that of Dalinar (and, maybe, of Renarin).

Edited by Rhaegar'Elin
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"The considerable abilities of the Skybreakers for making such amounted to an almost divine skill, for which no specific Surge or spren grants capacity, but however the order came to such an aptitude, the fact of it was real and acknowledged even by their rivals."

WoR Epigraph chapter 28

Well, since we know that dividing the guilty is a "divine skill" of the Skybreakers "...for which no specific Surge or spren grants capacity," why can't "seeing" be the divine skill of Truthwatchers. Just because Renarin's visions are different from how a normal Truthwatcher might experience it does not mean that Truthwatchers, in general, do not have some capacity.

 

When Tanavast's Shadow is explaining future sight, he compares it to a shattering window. What if what a Truthwatcher "sees" is one glimpse of one shard of that window. It's not sop much foretelling the future as it is getting a hint of a possible outcome of a current situation. Where as Renarin is possibly having a strong vision of specific events that exist in most/all possible outcomes of the current situation (he seems to have seen the coming of the Everstorm, but not that there would be an out-of-season Highstorm at the same time that crashes into it.).

 

It would also seem to me that the visions are tied, in some way, to Renarin's epilepsy. Either he has fits because he has visions, or his visions are different (stronger?) because he has fits.

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I don't think that Renarin had an epilepsy attacks while Seeing.

Hm. We know that there are three different magic systems on Roshar and Ars Arcanum autor speculates that the fabrials aren't the third one (I think they're just an offshot of Surgebinding). Maybe Renarin bonded a spren of the Third System?

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Maybe this is similar to the twinborn perk that we learned of in SoS?

 

I always wondered if Surgebinders can "unite" their own two Surges in a sort of 'special ability', unique to each Order... but I have noticed no evidence to support this idea. So, I think it's reasonable assuming that Renarin's visions aren't related to Surgebinding: I like this theory.

 

Anyway, like others have pointed, I'm more inclined to think that the visions are of Cultivation instead of Odium.

 

There's this idea of Orders being either closer to Honor or Cultivation with the Bondsmiths closest to Honor and the Truthwatchers closest to Cultivation.

So if Dalinar is receiving visions from Honor it's plausible to assume that Renarin is receiving visions from Cultivation: after all, Tanavast himself (or, at the least, his shadow in the vision) said that Cultivation is better than him at watching future.

 

There's this little problem that foreseight is of the Voidbringers... but what about Odium making mankind think so?

 

 

Kadash says that try to divine future is the soul of Voidbinding... but both Honor and Cultivation, at an extent, can see future.

He says that there were no promises from the Almighty... but there are with Dalinar (well not promises, but you get the point) unless we think there's Odium behind them.

 

So I think the idea of divination being of the Voidbringers is false: Odium instilled it (maybe hijacking the Sunmaker) to prevent case like that of Dalinar (and, maybe, of Renarin).

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