Did Harmony Do His Best?

[natc]

1) My main issue is the destruction of free will (apart from a suicide switch developed to work regardless of that free will being crushed) that Harmony performs on Lessie, and his apparent constant mental harassment of her, which had a large part to play in driving her mad, if it was as constant and unending as she claims

2)Soldiers volunteer, and know they are soldiers, Harmony's agents do not, (not all of them) huge difference.

I'm wondering why you are still saying that after we keep pointing out that pretty much everyone except Paalm who knew about her identity have never attested to that ever happening. Not even Paalm herself.

[ArchonTremaine]

I'm wondering why you are still saying that after we keep pointing out that pretty much everyone except Paalm who knew about her identity have never attested to that ever happening. Not even Paalm herself.

 

 

because that is what she claimed, at the end.  No way to know if it's true, and way to dodge the main point.

[natc]

I can't dodge a point I had no obligation to actually address . . .

And no, she didn't explicitly claim direct control of any sort.

[ArchonTremaine]

I can't dodge a point I had no obligation to actually address . . .

And no, she didn't explicitly claim direct control of any sort.

 

Yes, she did. she makes it clear 'he's back. I'd rather be dead than his slave' (having to paraphrase from the Audiobook.) Then she suicides, that does imply control, on the second point ,for some reason I thought you had made the point about soldiers.

[Teegs]

It sounds like you're assuming Paang was completely in her right mind throughout the story. That Kandra was clearly unhinged and part of that could be due to the influence of a different shard. (oh the irony....)

Edited October 16, 2015 by Teegs

[vicsmith1412]

I finally got ahold of this book, and this was my main source of contemplation. 

I believe that an important point to remember is that while this is Sazed- the same man who assisted in a revolution and lost his own love- it is also Harmony. A lot of people point out that he is restricted by the different shards he holds, but I believe that argument should be central to the discussion. How much of the decision making is Sazed, and how much is the intents of the shards? He MUST keep Preservation and Ruin equal. This is inherent to the balance of his shards. By making the mistake he did when he recreated the world, by giving them too much prosperity and growth in the beginning, he used a lot of preservation. As a result, I believe that Ruin is seeping into things as part of the natural order of his powers. Ruin is trying to re-balance society. To me, it feels like this whole situation Harmony has gotten himself into is the result of his attempts to prevent the ruin that is inevitable from destroying his pet society entirely. He knows he made a mistake, and he seems to imply that the mistake had much further consequences than just putting society behind by his account. He implies that society being behind is detrimental to them in some larger way, and that they are not prepared. 

 

This does not necessarily mean that he is not wrong to hurt Wax as he did. It only means that there is a large scope to his actions: not even by shard standards, but by more immediate standards as well. I don't think TenSoon meant that Wax knowing who the kandra was would have consequences later. I believe he meant that the immediate situation would get worse in ways they could not imagine. Every decision Harmony makes leads to a web of new possibilities. He knows that, even if we don't take into effect that he can see them. He must make every decision in a way that leads to the very best result he believes to be possible. Even as a God, that means he is GOING to make mistakes, he is going to make decisions that may seem bad or hurtful. The probability that he makes every single correct decision and saves every single life that he can is lower than I'd like. In the span of Godhood, he is still young.

 

Honestly, rather than seeing Wax as the child being raised, I kind of see Sazed as the child that was left alone to raise himself with only books to show him what to do. He was never taught what to do, how to do it, in the world of the gods.

 

 

Though, separately from that, I was still quite angry at Harmony for doing what he did. Whether his actions were right or wrong, understandable or not, they still hurt. While I agree that he did his best, that doesn't mean people don't have to feel angry, sad, or upset.

Edited October 16, 2015 by vicsmith1412

[Argent]

By making the mistake he did when he recreated the world, by giving them too much prosperity and growth in the beginning, he used a lot of preservation. As a result, I believe that Ruin is seeping into things as part of the natural order of his powers.

 

I don't think this is true. Sazed, in the first moments of taking up the Shards, was serving both them - he was saving the world (an act of Preservation) by changing it (an act of Ruin). He pointed out that the Shards would bring only destruction if left alone, but by channeling their power, by applying will to it, they could create. 

[king of nowhere]

Ah, but see I’d argue that if we can’t (or aren’t) going to find ways that Preservation could have had less collateral damage, then who are we to nitpick Harmony? That’s where my second argument came into play. It boarders along the line of “MAGIC” but I do believe that Gods are going to have privileges and perspective that humans don’t, or won’t be able to understand.

 

Preservation made choices and plans that would affect the shifting of power over a thousand years in the future (Vin’s earring anyone?), kind of butterfly effect esque. Who is to say that Harmony’s manipulation of Wax and Paang wasn’t similarly necessary? Just that we can’t see the reason because its trickle down won’t take place for quite some time? Also don’t forget, a thousand years for a God is probably a blink of an eye. It seems that Saze is still trying to find balance between humanity and Godhood. 

This kind of argument would make the whole discussion moot. If we assume that harmony has used his super intelligence and predictive power to take the best possible action, then we may as well stop arguing. Next thing, we could assume that the politicians know stuff we don't and are taking the best decisions, and even if it seems to us that they instead caused the nation to bankrupt and the industry to collapse, we are wrong and we must not protest.

I'm not saying harmony is a bad god. I am sure he is doing his best. I can't think of anyone who would do the job any better than him. Having that kind of power is a daunting responsibility. that does not make harmony immune from making bad choices, and does not make him immune from criticism when it happens.

Furthermore, it is important that people criticize harmony. people, even those with godlike powers, can only improve as long as they recognize that they have failings. if one is convinced that he's always right, he won't improve, ever. Harmony should not be encouraged to go down that path

[Teegs]

Very nice reply, King.  

 

I was stirring the pot for conversations sake and I think you have some good points. I do think he's got a long way to go in Godhood. It will be interesting to see if we get the opportunity to watch him get better at it. 

[Chuckles]

Agreed that Sazed is a young God with some learning to do. That line about the radio seems like a very important one, and a demonstration of why too much Preservation and not enough Ruin is probably a bad thing(for Scadrial at least)

I'm expecting an epic-tier screwup from Harmony in the latter parts of the W&W trilogy, perhaps Sazed is too good a man to be a God.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Chuckles

[Youngy]

"Yes, she did. she makes it clear 'he's back. I'd rather be dead than his slave' (having to paraphrase from the Audiobook.) Then she suicides, that does imply control."

Was wondering whether this was to do with Trell as well... I'm going to go with no, but it's something to consider.

[qarlin]

There is an order of events to consider:

 

Wax shot Paalm BEFORE he knew she was Lessie. Up until the Mr. Cravat thing, he thinks she's just wearing Lessie's bones. So we don't know if Wax wouldn't have been completely crippled by the knowledge that he was hunting an insane version of his wife. That may have also destroyed his relationship with Steris and Marasi. He probably would have tried reasoning with her. Can't say for certain, but it could have been significantly worse if Wax had known. Everything he did would have been different.

 

Also, there are larger events in play than Wax. And we don't know what these experiences are going to do to him. Yes, the knowledge hurt him, but he still did what was needed. Knowing that he was potentially being played by Harmony, he still did what he felt to be right (stopping Paalm in a way he knew would be horrifying to her). You saw him at the end of the book. If he'd been that way before the end, he would have lost.

[ParadoxicalZen]

I'm with Saze on this. I believe did the best he could with what knowledge he had available

[king of nowhere]

There is an order of events to consider:

 

Wax shot Paalm BEFORE he knew she was Lessie. Up until the Mr. Cravat thing, he thinks she's just wearing Lessie's bones. So we don't know if Wax wouldn't have been completely crippled by the knowledge that he was hunting an insane version of his wife.

I wonder what would have happened if paalm had dropped that mr cravat line BEFORE being shot.

[Kaymyth]

I wonder what would have happened if paalm had dropped that mr cravat line BEFORE being shot.

 

Probably nothing good.

 

Wax was being slow on the uptake, though.  I suspected who she really was when she said, "I was never Lessie."  And I had it confirmed as soon as she talked about not having the heart to kill Wayne.