18th Shard

Compounding Mechanics

74 posts in this topic

Burning a hemalurgic spike might be painful, but I'm not suggesting that Miles' armbands are hemalurgic.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@entropicscholar:

Read this thread: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3082-allomantically-burning-a-hemalurgic-spike/

Sorry I cannot provide proper links from the phone.

Edit: start from second post for quotes.

 

17th Shard: So the linchpin spike is not always the same type of spike.

Brandon: It doesn't have to be. The linchpin spike is just, when you're putting that many spikes together into somebody it needs a spike to coordinate them all. That is part of what's holding their body together from all of this damage, and it doesn't have to be the healing spike. The nature of Feruchemy is separate from that, if that makes any sense. For instance, you could put a few spikes into an Inquisitor without a linchpin spike, and they wouldn't die.

17th Shard: Can you burn the spikes? Like, Allomantically? For example, could they burn the steel in their head spikes?

Brandon: (sighs) I considered that and I eventually decided that they could, but it would be an excruciating process that would probably knock them unconscious simply by doing it.

17th Shard: Would they be able to tap?

Brandon: Would they tap them? They can use them as metalminds, yes.

:D Thankyou!!!

(I need to edit a previous post because of this)

 

 

EDIT:

 

Burning a hemalurgic spike might be painful, but I'm not suggesting that Miles' armbands are hemalurgic.

oh, no, I didn't think they were.

just a side thought.

Edited by entropicscholar
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

People keep saying I have no evidence... I put my evidence there. We know that the transition does go one way, from feruchemy to allomancy. I realize it's not exactly "WoB says it goes the other way," but it's still precedent. Why is it so impossible to believe the process can travel the same road in the other direction? If you disagree, say so, but I wish people would stop ignoring my evidence and then saying I'm not providing any.

 

The fact that a motorcycle can drive, forward is not evidence that it can drive backwards. The fact that you can drive one direction on a road legally is not a precedent that driving the other way is also legal. That is why I don't see the fact that there is allomany fueled compounding as evidence for feruchemy fueled compounding. Also I didn't say it was impossible, I just don't think it is likely at the moment.

 

 You're making an arbitrary distinction. "The five senses are all separate aspects of one specific trait." Yet, "These two uses of steel (allomantic and feruchemical) are separate and distinct, and aren't just different aspects of one specific trait," despite our precedent that this is exactly how it works when you use a feruchemical charge to filter allomantic power.

 

Well allomancy and feruchemy are separate things that work in their own distinct ways. The five senses are aspects of one specific attribute, our senses. The allomanic use of steel and the feruchemical use of steel are different, one is to access and filter the power of Preservation the other is to store and retrieve an attribute of the feruchemist. The fact that the two can have synergy does not mean that they are part of the same trait.

 

I still don't see why you're drawing arbitrary distinctions. Almost everyone on the planet has eyesight; there's nothing special about your eyesight, apart from the fact that it's yours. It's the thing inside of your eyes that connects to your brain and provides you with visual information. Everyone eats, and caloric energy isn't unique to any single person, yet if you store food in a bendalloymind no one else can draw from it, for no other reason than, you ate it.

 

There is nothing special about the eyesight stored in a metalmind other than that it is yours, but that is specifically why others can't access it. The caloric energy is unique to the individual, as I can only operate on my own caloric intake. I can't live off of another person's caloric intake. (well I guess if I ate them I could, but that would be turning their calories into mine, and there would be a lot of wasted energy :))

 

The trait of "burning steel" is as much a part of you as the trait of "metabolic energy." You put steel in your body, and because of the uniqueness of your spiritweb, energy gets pulled from Preservation and filtered into the ability to sense metal and Push on it, and this new energy fills your body as surely as the heat from a sauna increases the heat inside your body. There might not look like a difference between your own ability to burn steel versus that of any other Coinshot, just as there doesn't, objectively, seem to be any difference between your wakefulness and my wakefulness, yet it's special for no reason beyond it being your own.

 

Yes the ability to burn steel is as much a part of the person as there metabolic energy, the power they get from burning that steel is Preservation's. The fact the Preservation's power can be filtered to be the same as a trait you already have, is not evidence that all power you draw from Preservation is yours.

 

In summary, I've drawn parallels supporting my argument from various aspects of allomancy, feruchemy, common sense, precedent in the book, and established rules of compounding. Not to belittle anyone's opinion, as I realize this is still very speculative without concrete proof, but I feel like a lot of people are telling me that the idea is literally not even plausible (I'm not asking anyone to admit it's true, just plausible) largely because people simply don't "feel right" about it. Feelings aside, can anyone give me one single evidence from WoB or the text, any word written in steel that says that our theory isn't just "not proven true," but is actually implausible?

 

Well I fail to see that these supporting parallels are in fact supporting or parallels on existing knowledge about allomancy, feruchemy, precedents in the books, or established rules of compounding. I don't mean that to sound rude, if it did I'm sorry, it's just that I haven't been show any reason to believe these parallels to be accurate. The theory is posted and I am merely offering my critique of it as I understand it, if my understanding is flawed then please explain.

 

Plausibility and possibility are different things, while I have seen no evidence to show it is not possible (and thus I think it could be) I have seen no evidence to assume it should be likely (and thus don't think it is plausible). It is not that I don't think it "feels right" it's that I have not seen sufficient evidence that would show it to be more than possible.

 

I like you have tried to draw supporting parallels from how allomancy, feruchemy, and compounding work to show why this method does not seem likely to me. I don't believe I am saying that it just doesn't "feel right".

Edited by Random man
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok so there is a lot I want to talk about here, and this is going to take a while...

 

However, then one starts to burn steel. Now, one has a trait one didn't have a moment ago; that trait is "allomantic steel investiture"(1). One can now pick which trait to store; physical speed, or allomantic steel(2). One chooses to store the allomancy, the process turning the steel ring into a steelmind(3). Now even though one is still burning the steel in one's reserve, one is not gaining the benefit; one does not see steellines going to metal, and one cannot Push on metal(4).

 

However, later, one now has a full reserve of allomantic steel burned and stored in the steelmind. Like one can tap any attribute, one can now tap this reserve, and even though one is now not actively burning, one can nevertheless see steellines and Push on metal. With the well-known phenomenon of feruchemical dilation, one can draw the trait out faster, filling one's body with allomantic power, making one capable of Pushing on metal with far more force than would normally be possible.

 

And that's the theory.

 

(1)We know that compounding works the other way, so it's not a stretch to think the road goes both ways. If a feruchemical charge can act as a filter, drawing out Preservation's power in a feruchemical "flavor", it isn't a stretch to think that metals might not have the feruchemical potential to store their own allomantic partner.

 

(2)Tin is our evidence that this is possible. With a tin ring, a feruchemist gets to choose which of five attributes to store. So we have precedence of two things: One, that metals can clearly store more than one specific attribute, and two that the feruchemist can easily choose which of those attributes to store.

 

(3)This has been brought up, so I'm going to say again that I think this is a largely semantic difference. Like, yes, the difference between an empty box and a full one. We know that a piece of iron that's not an ironmind can easily have weight added to it; things don't need to already be metalminds in order to become metalminds; in fact, they must not be metalminds in order to become metalminds, the way a scent tinmind cannot start storing sight. Yet, it seems to be a simple, natural process for a feruchemist to take up a piece of tin, "blank" shall we say, and make the decision to store one of five attributes. I've heard people say, "No, you cannot start storing into a piece of tin until it's already a tinmind, and once it's a tinmind you can't store a second attribute," and I would like to find evidence of that first part before I accept it. I think it goes against what we know of tin.

 

(4)Much like bendalloy or brass, it's widely accepted that for certain traits, external power can be applied and then stored. Storing the filtered power of Preservation is no different from storing excess heat while one is in a sauna, or excess caloric energy while one eats at a bar that offers endless wings for $12.99.

 

 

Ok, your explanation of what is happening and your key evidence makes sense, but I have some issues with your claims.

 

Your first claim is that we know about feruchemical compounding so its no stretch that allomantic compounding could work, I get your point but I'm yet to see any plausible method that doesn't cause the balancing issues raised by Satsuoni, or make Feruchemical nicrosil pointless, you talk about storing the trait of investiture of an allomantic type in a metal mind, as far as I can tell that makes Feruchemical nicrosil redundant, which seems incredibly unlikely to me.

 

Second you claim that tin feruchemy shows us that we can store multiple different traits in one kind of metal, again someone else beat me to my dispute here as random man said, tin feruchemy lets you store one thing, your ability to perceive the world, it lets you store different parts of it, and forces you to store or tap those parts separately, but its still one trait, you argue that burning steel and storing steel are different parts of the same trait, but I don't think they are, if they were there wouldn't be mistings and ferrings, everyone would be twinborn.

 

Your third point makes sense to me, I agree with that, although I would argue that while none of the characters we've seen have known how to do it, it should be possible for a sufficiently skilled/knowledgeable tin ferring to store multiple attributes in one tinmind in the same way that multiple feruchemists can store in one metalmind, but I don't think it would be easy to do and would have to involve some form of cognitive trickery.

 

Your final point, I would argue that external power is not being stored, your power is being stored and immediately replenished by an external source.  eg for Brass if you stood in a furnace and stored heat, you wouldn't store the furnaces heat, you would store your heat, and then the furnace would heat you back up.  This might seem like semantics, but I think its important because feruchemy is all about storing your attributes for later, not outside power.

 

In summary (to the first half of my post) I think my biggest problem with this idea is that it makes Feruchemical nicrosil redundant and creates way too much potential for infinite power loops.

 

before I move on too far, @entropic scholar, I suspect that the attribute is stored in the spiritual rather than the cognitive because

(WoK spoiler)

on roshar gravity is a spiritual connection

and also this extremely long and complicated theory.  Essentially the relevant part of this theory is that attributes are stored in the spiritual. I support it because its as close to a confirmed universal realmatic theory as we have on the boards.

 

I was thinking that the original types 5 and 6 were forms of Compounding via Hemalurgy. So you could share a metalmind or Allomancy, but only to a point. It's more efficient as more than one person can draw on the ability without it being only one person at a time. However, being end-negative it probably loses power.

It always loses power, even if only a little bit.  It does allow for the recipient to use the donor's metal minds but hemalurgy is traumatic to the donor spiritually as well as physically, so it doesn't really allow for sharing so much as theft, and so far as I can tell the spiritual damage is generally enough to be fatal even if the physical damage is minor, although that is only my interpretation of the available information and hasn't been expressly stated

source - one of the last quotes in the post, also, its only for spiritual damage done by hemalurgy.

 

 

two points:

1. "Burning spikes is painful"--this implies you have a source stating that you can burn things you have not swallowed. (true/false) If so hemalurgy-allomancy compounding just got a lot easier. ( :) very exited: post link please :) )

2. "Burning spikes is painful" -- Miles 'Thousand Lives' has suffered so much physical trauma that he no longer feels pain.

The Most Recent Source - its worth noting that Brandon's position on this seems to wander quite a bit.

I also have a theory which I haven't posted yet that this is due to spiritual damage being done, in which case Miles would steal feel excruciating agony and just in general have a bad day trying to burn a hemalurgic spike, but thats a discussion for another thread.

 

 

I've read this a few times and I'm still not sure if it seems confrontational/aggressive, if it does I apologise, I tried to soften some of the language where it seemed bad

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The Most Recent Source - its worth noting that Brandon's position on this seems to wander quite a bit.

I also have a theory which I haven't posted yet that this is due to spiritual damage being done, in which case Miles would steal feel excruciating agony and just in general have a bad day trying to burn a hemalurgic spike, but thats a discussion for another thread.

my main question was if he could burn the metal just because it peirced his skin, rather than eating it.

That question has been answered: he can (but it hurts--alot)

 

I like your point on "spiritual pain", though. It wouldn't apply to his normal metalminds (which pierce his skin, but are not hemalurgic), but in the case of an actual hemalurgic spike, spiritual agony would likely be even more crippling than anything physical.

 

 

I think I'll try and track down the quote, but I think Brandon also hinted at the effects of burning a hemelurgic spike for its hemelurgic effect

 

--splicing the spiritweb of the donor into your own. He also said it would have "interesting effects", which I interpret to mean "not so pleasant" effects. Random mutations and the like.

The idea makes me curious though. Maybe something like what Rashek did to turn all the Ferrochemists into Mistwraiths?

Edited by entropicscholar
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just give up. You've all clearly proven that you're willing to say the same "I personally think some things are the same and some things are different" more often than I'm willing to say "Please support your supposition from the text," so I give up. You win, and if and when I am proven right in future books, I will tell you that I told you so so hard.

 

And finally, we have absolutely no idea how feruchemical nicrosil works, so we can't make something redundant when we don't know what it does. Your assumptions about what it does notwithstanding.

 

And there's no infinite feedback loop. Allomancy summons a set amount of energy from Preservation. A metalmind charged with the allomantic trait could be burned, but you'd get nothing more or less than the amount of trait inside. If an infinite feedback loop were possible, it would be possible with just feruchemical compounding as we know it. A compounder could store some attribute, burn that and store all the excess, then burn the excess to store even more, ad infinitum. If it's possible, it's already possible just with what we know from the text. Adding in allomantic dilation changes nothing about that.

 

I'm done. Vaya con dios.

-1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And there's no infinite feedback loop. Allomancy summons a set amount of energy from Preservation. A metalmind charged with the allomantic trait could be burned, but you'd get nothing more or less than the amount of trait inside. If an infinite feedback loop were possible, it would be possible with just feruchemical compounding as we know it. A compounder could store some attribute, burn that and store all the excess, then burn the excess to store even more, ad infinitum. If it's possible, it's already possible just with what we know from the text. Adding in allomantic dilation changes nothing about that.

I have a small issue with that:

Assume you burn n grams of Steel for n points of power (Investiture, Push, whatever), and store that in a metalmind of n grams. Then you burn metalmind.. and get n units of power that you store? It should at least double from the additional Preservation power - otherwise you get a significant loss.

Then to infinite loops:

As Brandon and Sazed have stated, a charged metalmind is, essentially, a new metal (until discharged, but that is just an opinion):

He used one of the attributes only available to Feruchemy—that of changing his age—but fueled it with Allomancy instead. By burning a Feruchemical storage that he himself had made, he effectively made a new Allomantic metal for himself—one that made him younger when he burned it.

 

Thus, after charging gold you get a new metal Feruchemical gold, with "burn for health, n units/sec" (ntotal=10*stored)  Allomantic effect. It already has some power stored inside it, and Preservation adds to that. By your model, the "burn for health" can be stored. Let us assume that it doesn't compress, and therefore takes as much "space" in metalmind as the corresponding amount of health (so you would need 10x the metalmind size, as for normal Compounding). You get yet another Allomantic metal, ffGold,  with a strange property of "burn for double the burn stored inside", which, if my math is correct, is weaker than normal compounding, but works faster. In theory, one should be able to do this infinitely, resulting in convoluted metals of increasingly bizarre Allomantic properties, though possibly without power gain per se.

If it is possible to "compress" charges (that is, the burn takes less "space" than corresponding attribute gain), then you'll end up with metal saturated with Investiture (filtered) to the point where it can block Shardblade :)

Edit: I guess one can say that Investiture coming from burned Goldmind is identical to Health, in which case the above scheme would not work. I personally doubt that it is perfectly identical, since IMO/IIRC you can forgo the tapping of that attribute, adding a layer of abstraction. But I am not sure. Allomancy would still apply in either case.

Edit2: ... (considers several dozen interaction  possibilities) Just color me confused :wacko:

Edited by Satsuoni
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What burning a metalmind does is not burn a new metal with an Allomantic effect. When burnt, a metalmind allows you to use the extra power inherent in Allomancy, but instead says, "Please put the power into (attribute) format," so it is identical to Health. You wouldn't need to "compress charges", only get another metalmind. The Feruchemical charge is like a filter, not changing the fact outside light (power) is passing thru, only changing the color or form.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you guys are missing an important detail.

 

compounding can never create an infinite loop. certainly, it has the potential for appearingly unlimited power, but the fact is that the basic storage limitations of normal ferrochemy prevent an actual "infinite loop".

 

when you burn a metalmind, you normally have to store excess power in a new metalmind. say, burn a metalmind with 1 charge and get 10 units of ferrochemic charge for the new metalmind. then you take off your second 10 unit metalmind and burn it for 100 charges.

 

Certainly, that's a spectacular effect, but where are you going to store 1000 units of ferrochemic charge, once you compound the 3rd time? It's not like it compresses; you just get more.

 

Large effect, yes, but after a certain point, you're going to be using the whole of Kredik Shaw to hold it all, and you can't exactly carry Kredik Shaw around with you.

Edited by entropicscholar
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kurkistan found this on Twitter. Thank you Satsuoni.

 

Posted 02 January 2014 - 10:56 PM

I was browsing through Peter's Twitter feed (he answers a lot of questions that are nice to know the answers to ;)) and saw a conversation between him and our very own Satsuoni. Sats is feeling all bashful today, so authorized me to repost it here. Any upvotes/accolades you feel compelled to give should be allocated to Satsuoni, as I am merely the messenger here.

 

Source:‏

Quote

Satsuoni:

@BrandSanderson Happy Head-munching and best wishes! (^-^)/ Is it possible to store Allomantic effect in metalmind of same metal? (~_~ ;)

 

Peter Ahlstrom:

@Satsuoni Did you read Alloy of Law?

 

Satsuoni:

@PeterAhlstrom  Yes, why? The question is not about Feruchemical nicrosil, if that is what you mean. Thank you for answering, btw.

 

Peter Ahlstrom:

@Satsuoni Oh, right, I misunderstood the question.

 

Satsuoni:

@PeterAhlstrom  I see. What about my original question? :)

 

Peter Ahlstrom:

@Satsuoni In general only feruchemical effects can be stored in metalminds. But there may be some ways around that. RAFO.

 

Satsuoni:

@PeterAhlstrom  Thank you!

 

My read of this is that Peter is talking about stuff like how you can store the strength you get from Allomantic pewter in a pewtermind, but it could be hinting at something else.

 

Any thoughts? Mainly I posted this for posterity's sake.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Latr-breaking-report from chaos said in it that brandon said compounding could be used to make allomancy better (like the orld rulers soothings0 tand that it was something that he had talked about before[] hey chaos can you give you opinon on this i think cat is out of the bag now

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For type 1 you don't have to be a compounder, as pewter is weird and it could be stored in a goldmind, pewtermind or a steelmind since it grants speed, healing (kind of) and obviously strength, also it seems kind of like wakefulness, but that just may be Vin using it to ignore the effects of sleep deprivation in WoA and HoA.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Increasing the effects of Allomancy may not require actually storing the Allomantic Investiture from Preservation. Tell me: How would Feruchemical aluminium affect someone you were also pushing on via Allomantic zinc?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since this thread has been necroed...

I think my biggest point here is that there are more tricks with Compounding than we understand.

Type 1 is the most common, ex. Miles Hundredlives.

With Type 2 Compounding, one has, as Darnam has previously stated, the added attribute of [metal] Allomantic power, a power that can be stored in a metalmind. His example, quoted below, is a perfect example of the effect storing Allomantic steel has in my mind, and is closest to the original intent of my starting post:

 

However, then one starts to burn steel. Now, one has a trait one didn't have a moment ago; that trait is "allomantic steel investiture"(1). One can now pick which trait to store; physical speed, or allomantic steel(2). One chooses to store the allomancy, the process turning the steel ring into a steelmind(3). Now even though one is still burning the steel in one's reserve, one is not gaining the benefit; one does not see steellines going to metal, and one cannot Push on metal(4).

 

However, later, one now has a full reserve of allomantic steel burned and stored in the steelmind. Like one can tap any attribute, one can now tap this reserve, and even though one is now not actively burning, one can nevertheless see steellines and Push on metal. With the well-known phenomenon of feruchemical dilation, one can draw the trait out faster, filling one's body with allomantic power, making one capable of Pushing on metal with far more force than would normally be possible.

 

Type 3 brings Hemalurgy into the mix. Here things get messy, literally. You Allomantically burn your spike, which has been said to be able to be done by WOB.

 

You know what, I'm just going to copy the OP.

 

 

Allomantically powering Hemalurgy -> Spike someone, burn spike, gain power!

    - Major Boost in Hemalurgic quality stolen

    - Consumes Spike so you can’t have the ability forever, just until it runs out. Now you have to go spike someone else.

    - Must be Misting of metal Spike is made of

4. Feruchemically powering Hemalurgy -> Spike someone, store power from spike, tap from metalmind to use.

    - You can tap it without the need to have a spike in yourself. (I’m not sure if you have to stab the spike in yourself and gain the power first, or if you can store it from the spike itself.)

    - You might (IDK) be able to tap without running out, but you might only have a limited amount of power in a Spike you can store. If you do have to stab yourself, then if the spike is in  somewhere vital, removing or even possibly by storing away the energy might kill you (You have a big hole stabbed in you by a chunk of metal without Shardic power to keep you alive).

    - You have to be a ferring of the spike metal.

5. Hemalurgically powering Feruchemy -> Store attribute in metalmind, stab someone with your metalmind (you might want to use a pointy one) and they can tap it (?) for the attribute.

    - Someone else can use the attribute you stored. So your good Bloodmaker buddy is slowly dying, and you (a Bloodmaker) store some health by being miserable for a while, stab him with the metalmind, and then he taps it, healing from what seemed certain death.

    - You need to both be the same kind of Ferring.

    - You don’t get anything out of the time you spent weak or sick or blind.You also have to know bind points for this, which are probably pretty obscure.

6. Hemalurgically powering Allomancy -> You burn a metal, somehow storing it in a spike, then give it to someone else, who then gets the Allomantic power for however long you burnt the metal.

    - Someone else can not burn metal and have a massive amount of power in one spike.

    - You have to spike people, know bindpoints, lose power, etc.

    - I think you both have to be the same Misting.

 

My last point before I will let this topic die once more, no one has argued with my five conjectures fundamentally. I declare them official.

 

  1. Each Metallic Art has specific benefits and disadvantages to using it.

  2. Compounding doesn’t change the output of the magic, only the form in which it comes.

  3. Compounding gains BOTH the disadvantages and the benefits of the transit magic system.

  4. Compounding is done by beginning one magic system, then, before completing it, beginning a second system, then utilizing the Investiture.

  5. Both magic systems must be able to be used by the initiator and the utilizer of the power (who are the same person until you add Hemalurgy in to it).

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oudeis...logic. A Recaller works like this Coppermind= memory recall COMPOUNDED Coppermind= greatly enhanced, possibly full 5 senses memory recall.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oudeis...logic. A Recaller works like this Coppermind= memory recall COMPOUNDED Coppermind= greatly enhanced, possibly full 5 senses memory recall.

Well, Brandon's repeatedly stated that Copper Compounding doesn't really do what we think it does. Take this WoB for example. 

 

 

FIREARCADIA
Is there any use to being a Copper compounder, from a feruchemical point of view? I think the same point would also apply to an Aluminium compounder.
BRANDON SANDERSON
Some combinations, like some abilities themselves, aren't really that useful. That said, being able to compound copper...that could do some things. Aluminum, not so much.

emphasis mine

There are numerous theories out there about what it might do, but we have no concrete evidence as to what it does. 

Edited by Onceler
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We know that fechuchemically-powered allomancy exists, because TLR was able to do insanely high-powered allomancy that no one could explain. My theory is that this involved storing and tapping Investiture through a nicromind. Example: TLR burns brass to create Soothing, but instead of using it, he stores it in his nicromind. Then, when riding in his carriage to the execution scene in Mistborn: Final Empire, he taps it and Soothes the entire city. 

 

One big question with this mechanism is whether the stored Investiture retains it's "flavor", or whether it becomes blank. To use the above example, did TLR have to burn a lot of brass for a while to store up epic Soothing power, or could he have stored ANY investiture or some type, and then use the "blank" investiture to supersize some brass burning? I tend to think it's the latter, because there has to be a way for a regular Keeper (i.e. feruchemist without any allomancy) to use nicrominds, and if the "flavor" was conserved, then a nicromind becomes just a way to store whatever you already can store but without using the necessary metal. Useful in some circumstances, I guess, but not really, since nicrosil is probably the rarest alloy of the 16. "Blank" investiture, on the other hand, would let you swap one attribute for another, and that is REALLY useful. For instance, you can constantly store weight, heat, food, water and air, and turn all of that essentially external energy into attributes that are very hard to store, like health, or luck, or even (if you have even a tiny bit of atium) youth. 

 

I can easily imagine a plot about the first Keeper in the AoL time period who discovers nicrosil - he/she would be like a mini-TLR!

 

 Blank Investiture. So, TLR could have used any Investiture.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...does anyone wonder how terrifying a Nicrosil compounder would be?...just, think about it...

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...does anyone wonder how terrifying a Nicrosil compounder would be?...just, think about it...

He would be insanely powerful Nicroburst... And nothing else.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He would be insanely powerful Nicroburst... And nothing else.

Or maybe that the Investiture coumpouned comes directly from Preservation, and that the coumpounder would make himslef a Sliver of Preservation?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's not how Nicrosil works. It's aspected to the abilities of the person storing it, keyed with their identity, not Preservation's. That's just ... not how it was explained at all. Also, as the OP, I do want to recognize that the thread itself was published in 2013, so many of the ideas involved are outdated. It predates Shadows of Self, and only barely postdates Alloy of Law. If you want to discuss and expand the original ideas, that'd be great, but if it's just a post notifying everyone that nicrosil works in feruchemy the way its shown, please start a new thread. Thank you for your consideration. 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People seem to have come up with a way to say, "we can't prove that you can feruchemically store an allomantic trait" which isn't the same as saying you can prove it false.

 

I suspect that when Sazed said, "he began storing, the process turning it into a metalmind" he was speaking semantically. The process of inauguration turns a specific natural-born american citizen over the age of 35 into the President. There's been no real fundamental change in the man, he's just got a new title. I think copper without anything stored in it is like a dead rechargeable battery. When you charge it, the process turns it into a charged battery.

 

That doesn't mean it's not feruchemically reactive until it's already got a charge. An augur burns gold; as a default, this reveals goldshadows to him. If the metal happens to already contain a feruchemical charge attuned to the augur, he can filter is a second way.

 

Likewise, I think a bloodmaker can choose to start putting health into gold. The average bloodmaker doesn't currently possess the trait of "seeing goldshadows", so there's nothing to store normally. I understand that I can't prove it, and maybe it doesn't work, but I don't see why, if a bloodmaker currently possesses the trait "sees goldshadows" he couldn't choose to store that trait in a gold ring, the process turning it into a goldmind, the way a Windwhisper can choose which specific sense he stores in a tinmind.

 

...Okay, would gold shadows relate to the feruchemical property of Health in any way? NO. Feruchemy stores HEALTH using Gold. a Windwhisper Ferring can store individual senses because THAT'S what Tin does Feruchemically, stores senses. Like how a Subsumer stores Nutrition, and can also store up hydration, which involves liquids, because that relates to nutrition. SO, HOW could a Gold Compounder store up something Temporal that is in no way related to it's feruchemical properties?

-1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The point of the above post was in support of the OP, which stated there could be a way to store an Allomantic "flavor" of Investiture in it's respective metal. This is true in all aspects save that it is stored in it's correlating metal - Bands of Mourning makes it clear that this is stored in Nicrosil. However, seeing as that post was made in 2013, it was both valid and applicable when it was posted. Please don't disrespect someone merely because they made a post 3 years ago that is now known to be wrong - there was a time, believe it or not, when he didn't know about cadmium and bendalloy, and yet posts theorizing what these metals could do aren't any more wrong than current posts on the red-shifting occurring within them. They are merely outdated. Some times, when we learn things, we find out that past theories were wrong. For example, this quote was written in 2010 in the oldest Mistborn forum thread with the information they had.

 

 

Sazed does mention new metals, but that's because he restored the metals that Atium displaced.

 

That's what I was thinking had happened. I don't really see the point of creating new metals above and beyond the 16; it throws off the balance of the system.

 

And yet now we know of Trellium, ettmetal, and Harmonium. However, no one has necroed the above thread for it's inaccuracy. 

To repeat myself from above, 

 

 

Also, as the OP, I do want to recognize that the thread itself was published in 2013, so many of the ideas involved are outdated. It predates Shadows of Self, and only barely postdates Alloy of Law. If you want to discuss and expand the original ideas, that'd be great, but if it's just a post notifying everyone that nicrosil works in feruchemy the way its shown, please start a new thread. Thank you for your consideration. 

Please respect forum rules and respect in future posts, as you seem to have ignored repeated advice to stop arguing over long dead theories.

Edited by 18th Shard
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I started a new thread on this topic with more updated info if you would like to check it out

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.