18th Shard

Compounding Mechanics

74 posts in this topic

By the way, I love the names synergisers and souleaters. +1 for you

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People seem to have come up with a way to say, "we can't prove that you can feruchemically store an allomantic trait" which isn't the same as saying you can prove it false.

 

I suspect that when Sazed said, "he began storing, the process turning it into a metalmind" he was speaking semantically. The process of inauguration turns a specific natural-born american citizen over the age of 35 into the President. There's been no real fundamental change in the man, he's just got a new title. I think copper without anything stored in it is like a dead rechargeable battery. When you charge it, the process turns it into a charged battery.

 

That doesn't mean it's not feruchemically reactive until it's already got a charge. An augur burns gold; as a default, this reveals goldshadows to him. If the metal happens to already contain a feruchemical charge attuned to the augur, he can filter is a second way.

 

Likewise, I think a bloodmaker can choose to start putting health into gold. The average bloodmaker doesn't currently possess the trait of "seeing goldshadows", so there's nothing to store normally. I understand that I can't prove it, and maybe it doesn't work, but I don't see why, if a bloodmaker currently possesses the trait "sees goldshadows" he couldn't choose to store that trait in a gold ring, the process turning it into a goldmind, the way a Windwhisper can choose which specific sense he stores in a tinmind.

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People seem to have come up with a way to say, "we can't prove that you can feruchemically store an allomantic trait" which isn't the same as saying you can prove it false.

Exactly

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It appears I have been bombarded with a variety of evidences that I am wrong. In response to a few of your statements, I appologise for claiming I knew more than I actually did.

Secondly your understanding of feruchemy doesn't seem to match with what we know based on stuff that Brandon has said in a few interviews, we know for certain that multiple forms of investiture can be stored in an object at the same time, we also know that multiple feruchemists can store in the same metal mind, they just can't access each others store.

This makes me think its unlikely that there is a fundamental change in a piece of metal that could be a metal mind and a piece of metal that is a metal mind, which seems to be what you are suggesting, otherwise it would almost definitely interfere with other forms of investiture and most likely also interfere with other feruchemists sharing the one metalmind.

Would you provide a link to where he said this?

 

It has been asked about before, twice actually, but Brandon is being very cryptic and reluctant to share information about it so they are essentially RAFO's.

Thankyou.

 

People seem to have come up with a way to say, "we can't prove that you can feruchemically store an allomantic trait" which isn't the same as saying you can prove it false.

:o probably the strongest point made on the entire thread (up to this point). I think I may have fallen into the mistake of thinking the two were the same in this case.

 

On compounding and allomancy I disagree with your theory on the grounds that it can't work that way because you were wrong about feruchemy and it just doesn't feel right, but I need to take a bit more time and do some research before I could articulate clearly what I think is wrong with your theory.

Which portion of my post are you referring to here?

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First and foremost, Thankyou. I hate being wrong, and appreciate when others check me.

 

I already knew this


4. Feruchemically powering Hemalurgy

      *Unfortunately, Ferrochemically storeing a quality in a Hemelurgic spike does not grant any particular benefit, nor let you draw the Hemelurgic quality Ferrochemically. This is demonstrated in Hero of Ages when Marsh uses one of his eyespikes as a steelmind, but is not able to compound in any way by using this method.

      *There is a theory regarding the use of a nicrosilmind, since that stores 'untyped' investiture. if the same metalmind were made into a hemelurgic spike, Ferrochemy should be able to power the effect of the spike. this is not necessarily possible with other metals, however, nor do we know the hemelurgic effect of nicrosil.

Now, as others have pointed out, this is more a case of failing to prove something true, rather than actually proving it impossible. I acknowledge the mistake.

 

 

 

78

ReaderAt2046
Can a Feruchemist store an attribute in a metalmind that someone else has already stored in and if so, do the charges affect each other in any way?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes, but the charges are just stored in separate pieces of the metal, and don't really influence one another.

The way this is phrased, it does not contradict my theory at all :lol:--that's hilarious.

(now, so that everyone doesn't think I'm full of ****, I have to explain myself again:)

 

 

Now you might say that a ferring should be able to "store" any attribute associated with the metal he uses, But that really isn't what ferrings do. Whenever Sazed created a new metalmind, he did just that: he created a metalmind. It describes specifically (when Sazed is researching the hero of ages, with Tindwyl) that when he first stores memories in his copper ring he Transforms it into a metalmind. even though the physical properties of the ring may not have changed, the cognitive and spiritual properties have changed. technically, the ring is no longer 'just copper', but rather is a new substance called a 'copper metalmind', or a 'coppermind', specufically attuned to Sazed. (If it did not work this way, there would be nothing stopping Ferrochemists from sharing their metalminds. it is the fact that the objects used have been spiritually and cognatively altered to recognize the Ferring or Ferrochemist which created them that creates this specificity. Likewise, this is why a single Tinmind can only store one sense, rather than multiple senses; it is only attuned to one, and even if it is emptied it will only be able to accept that one kind of sense again, to be stored later on.)

 

now, in this quote, I stated how the process of storing something , in a metalmind, changes its cognative (and probably spiritual) properties.

 

Granted, I was wrong about the point of storeing only one sense in a tinmind. ~sortof~

 

I would pose that as the properties of the metal are changed, only the properties of a certain part of the metal are changed, and then as more is invested into the metalmind more of the object becomes altered. the alternative would be the entire object being altered, and the change becoming more severe as more is stored.

Given Brandon's own statement, it sounds like the first of these two is correct.

 

As to more than one person storing traits in a single metalmind, brandon said "the charges are just stored in separate pieces of the metal", which could be interpreted as a statement that two people storing, say weight, in a single metalmind is the same as though they had started with two metalminds, and then welded the two objects together.

 

not sure if I phrased that very well. does it make sense?

 

in the same way, it would mean that if a tin-ferring wanted to store sight in his tin ear-ring, and then stored touch or hearing in that same ring, it's not so much that he's storing two traits in his metalmind, as he has now split the ring to function as two smaller metalminds. (Semantics. I know; largely, just semantics)

 

*of course, if I'm right here, it means that draining a metalmind returns it to its origional state (making it usable again, by anyone, for any purpose) (which means I was wrong about other things).
 

Edited by entropicscholar
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If I've made some mistake, please let me know.

I'm just expanding on previous statements.

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People seem to have come up with a way to say, "we can't prove that you can feruchemically store an allomantic trait" which isn't the same as saying you can prove it false.

 

True, but it is even more true that a lack of evidence is not evidence, if you claim its a good theory because we can't prove it wrong its definitely not a good theory, I'm not saying thats necessarily true of this theory but I've seen a few claims around that theories must be plausible because you can't prove them wrong and that thinking irritates me.

 

Which portion of my post are you referring to here?

 

I can't remember. So instead I will just present my understanding of how it actually works and the theories about it that I like, and then highlight where that disagrees with what you've suggested.

 

Feruchemy works by storing an attribute, not investiture (except nicrosil, obviously), any investiture involved in the process is at storing and tapping not what is being stored or tapped, how this works is to do with cognitive forms and spiritual <what ever the spiritual bit is called>, and its a long time since I've looked into that theory in detail so I'll simply say that this very long theory contains the development of the ideas about how all magic in the cosmere works. (very spoilerific, also that thread is almost a novel in and of itself)

 

In allomancy the nature of the metal acts as a filter for investiture coming from Preservation and has an effect, this is pretty simple I think we all understand if not the fine detail broadly how it works.

 

When compounding feruchemical stores you burn a metalmind, and the store in the metal mind provides a different filter for preservations investiture and this is where the extra output comes from, Preservations power filtered by your attribute, you can obviously then re-store your vast output of attributes which will allow you to keep most of it for later since most of the time you couldn't possibly use the huge power output gained by this method thats very helpful.  This is pretty much what you said about type 1 compounding I believe.

 

What you called Type 6 compounding (I think) is just basic hemalurgy, and you got that right, we know about that broadly at least there are still questions about it, but not about its broad functionality. I would dispute you calling it a type of compounding however, but thats just terminology.

 

I would make no distinction between type 5 and type 6 and once again, hemalurgy is not compounding.  We don't know exactly how hemalurgic decay effects feruchemy, but it isn't otherwise any different than allomantic hemalurgy.

 

type 4 compounding I would argue just doesn't work, because of the way multiple types of investiture get stored in an object the store of the metal mind would not be accessible to the person you stabbed with it instead it would steal an attribute from them hemalurgically and you would now have an object that was both a spike and a metalmind and also a corpse.

 

type 3 really just makes no sense to me, I don't think it would work.

You can burn a hemalurgic spike, but it doesn't have to be in your stomach and as far as I can tell it doesn't compound its just a source of metal, it also causes immense pain and spiritual damage, the reasons for this are unknown and not (to my knowledge) the subject of any theories (although I might change that).

Source

 

This leaves type 2 which is really the interesting part, at least to me and I honestly don't know that I think it works, but this does come back to the idea that a lack of evidence isn't evidence of a lack, so I won't criticise it too much but I think the only way to power allomancy feruchemically involves using nicrosil and we don't really know how that works except for the clearly modified for balancing version the MAG gives.

 

 

LAST MINUTE ADDITIONS IN REPLY TO YOUR LAST 2 POSTS:

Please avoid double posting, edit your previous post, just a bit of forum etiquette.

 

Your explanation of tin feruchemy I agree with, but I would still argue against any fundamental change in the metal in a metalmind and other metal of the same composition, there is no realmatic reason for it to change beyond your idea that it should (as far as I can see).  Therefore applying Occam's razor, no change. But that's just my opinion.

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dj26792,

I would like to thank you for making my exact points regarding types 4, 5 and 6. Everything you've said about those 3, I agree with.

I would also like to thank you for reviewing the basic fundamentals of allomancy, ferrochemy and compounding, which we all already know, 

as well as repeating the following quote for the X time in this thread.

 

People seem to have come up with a way to say, "we can't prove that you can feruchemically store an allomantic trait" which isn't the same as saying you can prove it false.

 

I would NOT like to thank you for being excessively confrontational. If I have somehow offended you, I'm sorry. It was never my intent to do so.

 

That said, no idea is worth very much if the man (or woman) who poses it is not willing to defend or explain it. I hoped that we could have a pleasant "well what if..." back and forth discussion, but few others seem to have attempted this. Disagreement is fine, but should there not be more questions, and fewer barbs?

Edited by entropicscholar
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True, but it is even more true that a lack of evidence is not evidence, if you claim its a good theory because we can't prove it wrong its definitely not a good theory, I'm not saying thats necessarily true of this theory but I've seen a few claims around that theories must be plausible because you can't prove them wrong and that thinking irritates me.

...

 

This leaves type 2 which is really the interesting part, at least to me and I honestly don't know that I think it works, but this does come back to the idea that a lack of evidence isn't evidence of a lack, so I won't criticise it too much but I think the only way to power allomancy feruchemically involves using nicrosil and we don't really know how that works except for the clearly modified for balancing version the MAG gives.

 

...

 

Your explanation of tin feruchemy I agree with, but I would still argue against any fundamental change in the metal in a metalmind and other metal of the same composition, there is no realmatic reason for it to change beyond your idea that it should (as far as I can see).  Therefore applying Occam's razor, no change. But that's just my opinion.

 

First, I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but you make it sound like theories are binary things; like something is either flawless, or let's junk it. Clearly, I'm sure you'll agree, there is a spectrum, ranging from "Proven via text" all the way to "Utterly disproven," with dozens of stops along the way, like "widely accepted", "plausible", and "a stretch" to name just a few. Mere plausibility is a relatively low bar, and I think we who support the theory have met it; we've provided support and evidence which has barely been remarked on. We aren't saying we're right because you have failed to prove us wrong, we're saying that it's plausible because you've ignored the bulk of our argument, in favor of claiming that it can't be true because it disagrees with a pet theory of yours.

 

I even pointed out that your personal grasp of the realmatics of the situation is flawed, and your reply was, "well that's true, but I'm still right."

 

And may I say, as far as I know, from the texts and Mr. Sanderson himself we have but mere scraps of how the interactions of the three realms actually work, yet I frequently hear them brought out on this forum as though the various theories are simply accepted fact. And frankly, those who buy into this idea tend to act a little condescending towards those of us who haven't yet had a drink of this kool-aid.

 

Basically, if you'd like to address our arguments for this theory and find WoB or quotes from the text (Words in steel, as I'm going to try to start calling them) to explain why they are unfeasible, I for one would be all ears. If you're going to tell me yet again that your pet theory is simply correct and I have to accept that, I'm afraid we probably aren't technically having a conversation any longer.

 

And please, do not quote Occam's Razor. Even in real life, it's practically a fallacy. In a novel, especially written by such a clever storyteller, "the simplest explanation" will almost never happen, and thank goodness, because that would make for a terribly boring book. But secondly, if you're going to tell us we should accept the simplest explanation, you might not want to claim that a long, involved theory which you yourself referred to as "almost a novel" is simpler than a few quick paragraphs.

 

And finally, I honestly don't understand what you mean when you speak of "fundamental change in the metal in a metalmind and other metal of the same composition". If you can find a different way to phrase that, I might understand what you're saying and be able to respond.

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First of all let me apologise for the tone of that last post of mine, looking back it it now it does come across confrontational and that's a pretty common failing for me so I should know better by now, let me assure you I didn't mean to be so but it even I cringed re-reading parts of it.

 

I was not offended by any discussion in this topic, or even irritated, I'm even enjoying the discussion (except for the bit where I accidentally made you think I was offended).

 

I do not think theories are binary things but I think you should have some kind of argument beyond this can't be proven wrong, I thought I said that wasn't true of this one, just a general annoyance (and really with the world at large as much as this forum).

 

I personally theorise (or attempt to, I'm not perfect) under a simple principle thats quite a common statement among historians:

 

A lack of evidence is not evidence of a lack, I add a personal addendum that it also isn't evidence, that was the point I was attempting to make when I re-quoted Darnam's version of this statement.

 

Moving on to the realmatics

As my attempt at explaining how I disagree was a miserable failure, let me ask questions instead because maybe I just don't understand, as there seems to be general agreement (so far as I can tell) that types 5 and 6 are just hemalurgy and types 3 and 4 don't actually happen I will ignore those now, also type 1 because we already understand that fairly well.

 

Beyond simply feruchemical compounding works what reasoning and evidence do you have for the existence of allomantic (type 2) compounding?

 

Why does there need to be a spiritual or cognitive difference between a metalmind and another piece of metal, besides the attatched attribute?

 

Extra question on that topic because that I'm really only working out as I type, would you argue that there is the same sort of change in a box when you place something in it?

ie: is the difference between an empty box and a full box the same as the difference between a piece of metal and a metal mind?

 

(side note for Darnam: I really have no idea what the change is, entropicscholar keeps talking about a change in some or all of a piece of metal when a feruchemical charge is stored in it, I see no need for a change aside from the presence of the substance, and don't really know what it is.)

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Beyond simply feruchemical compounding works what reasoning and evidence do you have for the existence of allomantic (type 2) compounding?

 

Why does there need to be a spiritual or cognitive difference between a metalmind and another piece of metal, besides the attatched attribute?

 

Extra question on that topic because that I'm really only working out as I type, would you argue that there is the same sort of change in a box when you place something in it?

ie: is the difference between an empty box and a full box the same as the difference between a piece of metal and a metal mind?

 

First and foremost, let me state yet again that we're not looking to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is true. All that either of us is saying is, here's our idea of what might work. So if you're looking for us to say, "Here's a place in the text where someone does this," you're going to be disappointed. I'm going to re-state our basic idea now, hopefully answering your questions. If you choose to decide that you think it's unlikely, fine. If you want to tell us that we're wrong or even implausible, please provide something in-text that shows that what we're suggesting cannot happen. We know and admit that this theory isn't rock-solid yet, that it's simply a possibility, so you don't need to say anything to prove that it's not yet fact. If you're going to continue arguing that we're wrong, then it is your burden to prove that we have failed to achieve even the low threshold of "plausibility", not because people can just say whatever they want and put it forth as fact, but because we admit this isn't fact, it's just an idea. If you're going to continue telling us it's not even that, then yes, you've taken the burden upon yourself to address our arguments. And once again, your own personal opinions on realmatics are not proof, unless you can support them from the text.

 

The theory runs like this. Presume one is a twinborn in, let's say steel. One has a decent reserve of metal in one's stomach, and a steel ring on one's finger. One could store one's own physical speed in this ring, because that is steel's feruchemical trait. One could not store body heat, because that isn't this metal's feruchemical trait.

 

However, then one starts to burn steel. Now, one has a trait one didn't have a moment ago; that trait is "allomantic steel investiture"(1). One can now pick which trait to store; physical speed, or allomantic steel(2). One chooses to store the allomancy, the process turning the steel ring into a steelmind(3). Now even though one is still burning the steel in one's reserve, one is not gaining the benefit; one does not see steellines going to metal, and one cannot Push on metal(4).

 

However, later, one now has a full reserve of allomantic steel burned and stored in the steelmind. Like one can tap any attribute, one can now tap this reserve, and even though one is now not actively burning, one can nevertheless see steellines and Push on metal. With the well-known phenomenon of feruchemical dilation, one can draw the trait out faster, filling one's body with allomantic power, making one capable of Pushing on metal with far more force than would normally be possible.

 

And that's the theory.

 

(1)We know that compounding works the other way, so it's not a stretch to think the road goes both ways. If a feruchemical charge can act as a filter, drawing out Preservation's power in a feruchemical "flavor", it isn't a stretch to think that metals might not have the feruchemical potential to store their own allomantic partner.

 

(2)Tin is our evidence that this is possible. With a tin ring, a feruchemist gets to choose which of five attributes to store. So we have precedence of two things: One, that metals can clearly store more than one specific attribute, and two that the feruchemist can easily choose which of those attributes to store.

 

(3)This has been brought up, so I'm going to say again that I think this is a largely semantic difference. Like, yes, the difference between an empty box and a full one. We know that a piece of iron that's not an ironmind can easily have weight added to it; things don't need to already be metalminds in order to become metalminds; in fact, they must not be metalminds in order to become metalminds, the way a scent tinmind cannot start storing sight. Yet, it seems to be a simple, natural process for a feruchemist to take up a piece of tin, "blank" shall we say, and make the decision to store one of five attributes. I've heard people say, "No, you cannot start storing into a piece of tin until it's already a tinmind, and once it's a tinmind you can't store a second attribute," and I would like to find evidence of that first part before I accept it. I think it goes against what we know of tin.

 

(4)Much like bendalloy or brass, it's widely accepted that for certain traits, external power can be applied and then stored. Storing the filtered power of Preservation is no different from storing excess heat while one is in a sauna, or excess caloric energy while one eats at a bar that offers endless wings for $12.99.

 

One thing, dj26, that we keep asking for is that you address our actual points. You have said a number of times, "this goes against my theories on realmatics" and then talked a lot about your theories and claiming that we're offering no evidence. Here, yet again, is all of our evidence. Please address it this time if you still have objections. We all know now how you feel about realmatics, so please don't bother mentioning it again. It will add nothing new to the conversation, unless this time you can support your theories from the text.

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I was thinking that the original types 5 and 6 were forms of Compounding via Hemalurgy. So you could share a metalmind or Allomancy, but only to a point. It's more efficient as more than one person can draw on the ability without it being only one person at a time. However, being end-negative it probably loses power.

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I would also like to add that all these Compoundings could be used in a cycle. I store Allomancy, burn metalmind = duralumin power without the duralumin.... Actually, what would happen if you could Compound Duralumin this way. Super-duralumin boosts...

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Well if you don't mind me tossing my two cents in the ring, I'll respond to the four points Darnam made above. I apologize in advance if anything I say comes across as agitated or overly abrupt, I've been told that is how what I type reads.

 

To (1), I would say that while I don't consider it to be impossible, I do consider it to be a stretch of our current knowledge. This is because we don't have evidence to support it, because while lack of evidence is not evidence of a lack, it is also not evidence in support.

 

To (2), Tin does store one specific attribute in the same way as Copper does. They store one thing in multiple partitions in order to keep track of what they are. In my opinion this is due to the end neutral nature of feruchemy, you cannot use tin to trade smell for sight or copper to trade one memory for another, they are distinct part of one attribute.

 

To (3), I got nothing to say one way or the other, as I think the issue here is what you can store in a metalmind not when metal becomes a metalmind.

 

To (4), it is true that we know that outside sources can be used to store up feruchemical reserves, as that is what allomancy fueled compounding is. I simply see no evidence that you can store allomanic power in a metal mind, because while some metal store an attribute with distinct parts, I don't see those parts  as distinct attributes.

 

To summarize, I see feruchemy as we know it so for as storing the attributes of an individual for later use. This is why a feruchemist cannot access another's stores, it is not their attribute. While yes, if you set in a sauna  you can store more heat, I see that as because you have more personal heat to store. This is also why they can store allomancy fueled compounding, because while preservation gives a massive boost to the amount, the attribute itself is still flavored for them. I see the allomanic flavored power gained from burning a non-metalmind as being investiture the allomancer has access to, but I don't see reason to think of it's flavor as being a part of the allomancer themselves. As such I don't see them as being able to store it.

 

Well that is my two cents on the issue, again apologies if it comes across as abrasive, that is a failing of mine in written communication and not the intent of the writing.

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To (1), I would say that while I don't consider it to be impossible, I do consider it to be a stretch of our current knowledge. This is because we don't have evidence to support it, because while lack of evidence is not evidence of a lack, it is also not evidence in support.

 

People keep saying I have no evidence... I put my evidence there. We know that the transition does go one way, from feruchemy to allomancy. I realize it's not exactly "WoB says it goes the other way," but it's still precedent. Why is it so impossible to believe the process can travel the same road in the other direction? If you disagree, say so, but I wish people would stop ignoring my evidence and then saying I'm not providing any.

To (2), Tin does store one specific attribute in the same way as Copper does. They store one thing in multiple partitions in order to keep track of what they are. In my opinion this is due to the end neutral nature of feruchemy, you cannot use tin to trade smell for sight or copper to trade one memory for another, they are distinct part of one attribute.

You're making an arbitrary distinction. "The five senses are all separate aspects of one specific trait." Yet, "These two uses of steel (allomantic and feruchemical) are separate and distinct, and aren't just different aspects of one specific trait," despite our precedent that this is exactly how it works when you use a feruchemical charge to filter allomantic power. You are more than welcome to your opinion, but if you're going to tell me that your opinion disproves my theory, I will disagree with you until your opinion is backed up by some evidence in the text, some WoB stating that yes, the five senses are all one trait, but the two sides of steel aren't. Frankly, I can point to Miles and Rashek as compounders to show you that the two aspects of Gold are obviously connected in some way, while, with respect, all you've got is, "that's not how I feel." Wile I fully validate your feelings, they aren't the same as text-supported proof.

(then 3 was simply a semantic debate with someone else and doesn't seem germane to what we're discussing, and 4 I feel like I addressed above, so I'm skipping to your...)

To summarize, I see feruchemy as we know it so for as storing the attributes of an individual for later use. This is why a feruchemist cannot access another's stores, it is not their attribute. While yes, if you set in a sauna  you can store more heat, I see that as because you have more personal heat to store. This is also why they can store allomancy fueled compounding, because while preservation gives a massive boost to the amount, the attribute itself is still flavored for them. I see the allomanic flavored power gained from burning a non-metalmind as being investiture the allomancer has access to, but I don't see reason to think of it's flavor as being a part of the allomancer themselves. As such I don't see them as being able to store it.

I still don't see why you're drawing arbitrary distinctions. Almost everyone on the planet has eyesight; there's nothing special about your eyesight, apart from the fact that it's yours. It's the thing inside of your eyes that connects to your brain and provides you with visual information. Everyone eats, and caloric energy isn't unique to any single person, yet if you store food in a bendalloymind no one else can draw from it, for no other reason than, you ate it.

The trait of "burning steel" is as much a part of you as the trait of "metabolic energy." You put steel in your body, and because of the uniqueness of your spiritweb, energy gets pulled from Preservation and filtered into the ability to sense metal and Push on it, and this new energy fills your body as surely as the heat from a sauna increases the heat inside your body. There might not look like a difference between your own ability to burn steel versus that of any other Coinshot, just as there doesn't, objectively, seem to be any difference between your wakefulness and my wakefulness, yet it's special for no reason beyond it being your own.

In summary, I've drawn parallels supporting my argument from various aspects of allomancy, feruchemy, common sense, precedent in the book, and established rules of compounding. Not to belittle anyone's opinion, as I realize this is still very speculative without concrete proof, but I feel like a lot of people are telling me that the idea is literally not even plausible (I'm not asking anyone to admit it's true, just plausible) largely because people simply don't "feel right" about it. Feelings aside, can anyone give me one single evidence from WoB or the text, any word written in steel that says that our theory isn't just "not proven true," but is actually implausible?

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Ok, I have a question. Does Miles swallow the gold that he has Health stored in? Or is he able to burn it directly from his armbands, since the pierce his skin and are partially inside his body?

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herrrmmm... well, I'm still quite new here, so I'm still unaware of your realmatics theories. I'm sure I'll have a lot of questions, so a link to this would be nice.

Now, lets try to answer these questions one at a time


Beyond simply feruchemical compounding works what reasoning and evidence do you have for the existence of allomantic (type 2) compounding?

None. This thread is founded on specualtion. we just want to know how it would work, if it is possible.

 

Why does there need to be a spiritual or cognitive difference between a metalmind and another piece of metal, besides the attatched attribute?

This is an expansion on the idea that everything in cosmere exists in all 3 (physical, cognitive, spiritual) realms. Because we know that attaching an attribute to a metalmind does not change it physicaly, the effect (according to logic alone) would have to exist in either the cognitive or spiritual realm.

Also, the difference isn't in addition to the attached attribute. The difference is the attached attribute. I assumed cognitive, because I was referencing Feruchemical copper, at the time, which is thematically cognitive.

 


Extra question on that topic because that I'm really only working out as I type, would you argue that there is the same sort of change in a box when you place something in it?

ie: is the difference between an empty box and a full box the same as the difference between a piece of metal and a metal mind?

 

(side note for Darnam: I really have no idea what the change is, entropicscholar keeps talking about a change in some or all of a piece of metal when a feruchemical charge is stored in it, I see no need for a change aside from the presence of the substance, and don't really know what it is.)

er? well...

"the difference between an empty box, and a full box"... I guess that analogy works if each molecule of metal is a separate box...

(bigger object =! bigger box. bigger object = more boxes)

for simplicity's sake I'm mostly going to just leave this one alone.

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as to powering Ferrochemy with allomancy


The theory runs like this. Presume one is a twinborn in, let's say steel. One has a decent reserve of metal in one's stomach, and a steel ring on one's finger. One could store one's own physical speed in this ring, because that is steel's feruchemical trait. One could not store body heat, because that isn't this metal's feruchemical trait.

 

However, then one starts to burn steel. Now, one has a trait one didn't have a moment ago; that trait is "allomantic steel investiture"(1). One can now pick which trait to store; physical speed, or allomantic steel(2). One chooses to store the allomancy, the process turning the steel ring into a steelmind(3). Now even though one is still burning the steel in one's reserve, one is not gaining the benefit; one does not see steellines going to metal, and one cannot Push on metal(4).

 

However, later, one now has a full reserve of allomantic steel burned and stored in the steelmind. Like one can tap any attribute, one can now tap this reserve, and even though one is now not actively burning, one can nevertheless see steellines and Push on metal. With the well-known phenomenon of feruchemical dilation, one can draw the trait out faster, filling one's body with allomantic power, making one capable of Pushing on metal with far more force than would normally be possible.

 

And that's the theory.

I think it would be really cool to see this, but I'm tryiing to stay hands-off on whether it's possible.

(I think this is what Feruchemical nicrosil is for)

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Ok, I have a question. Does Miles swallow the gold that he has Health stored in? Or is he able to burn it directly from his armbands, since the pierce his skin and are partially inside his body?

I'd like to know the answer to that myself.

I personally think he has to swallow them to compound.

 

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I was thinking that the original types 5 and 6 were forms of Compounding via Hemalurgy. So you could share a metalmind or Allomancy, but only to a point. It's more efficient as more than one person can draw on the ability without it being only one person at a time. However, being end-negative it probably loses power.

I think basic Hemalurgy, used to steal Ferrochemy, can have that effect, if the spike is moved from person to person, after being initially charged. (you just need a non-lethal bind point, so that they survive spike-removal)

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Burning spikes is painful, and he would have to replace piercings regularly, so I assume he does a sensible thing: swallows some gold, charges it from existing metalminds, burns for more health.

Can you even charge a metalmind from another metalmind?

 

Also, how would charging shavings work? Wouldn't  that be like trying to charge a thousand little metalminds separately?

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Burning spikes is painful, and he would have to replace piercings regularly, so I assume he does a sensible thing: swallows some gold, charges it from existing metalminds, burns for more health.

two points:

1. "Burning spikes is painful"--this implies you have a source stating that you can burn things you have not swallowed. (true/false) If so hemalurgy-allomancy compounding just got a lot easier. ( :) very exited: post link please :) )

2. "Burning spikes is painful" -- Miles 'Thousand Lives' has suffered so much physical trauma that he no longer feels pain.

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Can you even charge a metalmind from another metalmind?

 

Also, how would charging shavings work? Wouldn't  that be like trying to charge a thousand little metalminds separately?

yes, and yes.

 

but if you shave off or break off part of an existing metalmind both parts retain a (I assume proportional) fraction of the origional metalmind charge.

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yes, and yes.

 

but if you shave off or break off part of an existing metalmind both parts retain a (I assume proportional) fraction of the origional metalmind charge.

Of course, but then he would have to store health in the goldmind, then take it off and shave it down and swallow it, then burn it while charging a new armband. So he would still have change his armbands out regularly.

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See the WoB quote I gave above - you can store in metalmind while gaining the power from Compounding. It is the same principle - tap one Metalmind, store in another. Also, one could use beads instead of shavings, reducing the number.

That quote from Brandon is probably the most confusing thing I have ever heard from him.

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