Compounding Mechanics

[18th Shard]

Hey, this is my first post, but I’ve hung around the forums for a while. I thought for a while about how other forms of Compounding -other ones than Allomantically powering Feruchemy- and I came up with a few ideas that made a lot of sense to me - I also created it, so it might sound completely ludicrous to someone else - and I decided to make this theory about them. I apologize for the length of this post in advance.

    So I worked off of 5 basic conjectures. I will explain them more fully and their implications later, but here they are:

1. Each Metallic Art has specific benefits and disadvantages to using it.

2. Compounding doesn’t change the output of the magic, only the form in which it comes.

3. Compounding gains Both the disadvantages and the benefits of the transit magic system.

4. Compounding is done by beginning one magic system, then, before completing it, beginning a second system, then utilizing the Investiture.

5. Both magic systems must be able to be used by the initiator and the utilizer of the power (who are the same person until you add Hemalurgy in to it).

First: Each Metallic Art has specific benefits and disadvantages to using it. This is kind of obvious, but is important later on, so I thought I’d point out the specific qualities that distinguish them.

    Allomancy - Benefits: Allomancy is end-positive. You gain power in the process.

              - Disadvantages: Allomancy consumes the metal uses.

    Feruchemy - Benefits: Feruchemy allows you to store an attribute until you need it. You can also tap it at a much higher rate than you stored it.

              - Disadvantages: You can only tap as much as you store.

    Hemalurgy - Benefits: Hemalurgy can steal attributes, or in other words, grant something to you that you didn’t have originally.

             - Disadvantages: Being end-negative, Hemalurgy has a lot of these. You have to spike someone; you have to stab yourself; you lose power due to Hemalurgic decay; you have to know the bind points or its useless.

 

Second: Compounding does not change the power output, only the form. In other words, if you begin with Feruchemy, you will end with Feruchemical power, though it might be in a different form (Allomantic, Hemalurgic). This is basically saying, “If you store Speed and burn  your metalmind, you’re still going to be getting Speed out of it, not Steelpushing. However, it will be released in a burst of power, as you are working with Allomancy.”

 

Third: Compounding gains Both the disadvantages and the benefits of the transit magic system. Transit here refers to the second one you do, the one you are compounding with. This explains why you would Compound. Allomantically powering Feruchemy (the kind in Alloy of Law) gains the benefit of Allomancy (a boost in power) and its disadvantage (the metalmind is consumed in the process). The reverse, Feruchemically powering Allomancy, would come out in Allomantic powers, but you would be able to store it and then tap it much faster than normal, so you would be able to boost your Allomancy without duralumin.

 

Fourth: Compounding is done by beginning one magic system, then, before completing it, beginning a second system, then utilizing the Investiture. So, in Alloy of Law compounding, they begin Feruchemy, storing an attribute, but before “completing” it by tapping the power, they begin Allomancy by burning the metalmind, then utilize the power automatically because it is Allomancy. Feruchemically powering Allomancy would be begun by Allomantically burning a metal, and then storing the power in a metalmind. They could then tap it to utilize the stored coppercloud or whatever.

Fifth and Finally: Both magic systems must be able to be used by the initiator and the utilizer of the power (who are the same person until you add Hemalurgy in to it). So the Compounders in Alloy of Law must be both a misting and a ferring in their metal. The same is true for Feruchemically powering Allomancy.

 

So here are the six kinds of Compounding and how they should work according to the above ideas.

1. Allomantically powering Feruchemy -> Store attribute, burn metalmind, gain powers!

    - Gains Benefits of Extra Investiture

    - Also consumes metalmind

    - Must be a Twinborn for the same metal.

2. Feruchemically powering Allomancy -> Burn metal, somehow store power in a metalmind, tap to use.

    - You can tap without the need to burn a metal. You can also tap it at an increased rate, so you don’t need duralumin.

    - However, you do have to burn all this metal sometime. You don’t get free power.

    - Must be Twinborn for the same metal

3. Allomantically powering Hemalurgy -> Spike someone, burn spike, gain power!

    - Major Boost in Hemalurgic quality stolen

    - Consumes Spike so you can’t have the ability forever, just until it runs out. Now you have to go spike someone else.

    - Must be Misting of metal Spike is made of

4. Feruchemically powering Hemalurgy -> Spike someone, store power from spike, tap from metalmind to use.

    - You can tap it without the need to have a spike in yourself. (I’m not sure if you have to stab the spike in yourself and gain the power first, or if you can store it from the spike itself.)

    - You might (IDK) be able to tap without running out, but you might only have a limited amount of power in a Spike you can store. If you do have to stab yourself, then if the spike is in  somewhere vital, removing or even possibly by storing away the energy might kill you (You have a big hole stabbed in you by a chunk of metal without Shardic power to keep you alive).

    - You have to be a ferring of the spike metal.

5. Hemalurgically powering Feruchemy -> Store attribute in metalmind, stab someone with your metalmind (you might want to use a pointy one) and they can tap it (?) for the attribute.

    - Someone else can use the attribute you stored. So your good Bloodmaker buddy is slowly dying, and you (a Bloodmaker) store some health by being miserable for a while, stab him with the metalmind, and then he taps it, healing from what seemed certain death.

    - You need to both be the same kind of Ferring.

    - You don’t get anything out of the time you spent weak or sick or blind.You also have to know bind points for this, which are probably pretty obscure.

6. Hemalurgically powering Allomancy -> You burn a metal, somehow storing it in a spike, then give it to someone else, who then gets the Allomantic power for however long you burnt the metal.

    - Someone else can not burn metal and have a massive amount of power in one spike.

    - You have to spike people, know bindpoints, lose power, etc.

    - I think you both have to be the same Misting.

Edited November 18, 2013 by 18th Shard

[bartbug]

If the Feruchemy powering Allomancy thing would work, I either think that it would involve Nicrosil, or it would require god metal alloys. If either of those work, then I think that you really have something. Either way, good work!

[11thorderknight]

We know that fechuchemically-powered allomancy exists, because TLR was able to do insanely high-powered allomancy that no one could explain. My theory is that this involved storing and tapping Investiture through a nicromind. Example: TLR burns brass to create Soothing, but instead of using it, he stores it in his nicromind. Then, when riding in his carriage to the execution scene in Mistborn: Final Empire, he taps it and Soothes the entire city. 

 

One big question with this mechanism is whether the stored Investiture retains it's "flavor", or whether it becomes blank. To use the above example, did TLR have to burn a lot of brass for a while to store up epic Soothing power, or could he have stored ANY investiture or some type, and then use the "blank" investiture to supersize some brass burning? I tend to think it's the latter, because there has to be a way for a regular Keeper (i.e. feruchemist without any allomancy) to use nicrominds, and if the "flavor" was conserved, then a nicromind becomes just a way to store whatever you already can store but without using the necessary metal. Useful in some circumstances, I guess, but not really, since nicrosil is probably the rarest alloy of the 16. "Blank" investiture, on the other hand, would let you swap one attribute for another, and that is REALLY useful. For instance, you can constantly store weight, heat, food, water and air, and turn all of that essentially external energy into attributes that are very hard to store, like health, or luck, or even (if you have even a tiny bit of atium) youth. 

 

I can easily imagine a plot about the first Keeper in the AoL time period who discovers nicrosil - he/she would be like a mini-TLR!

Edited November 18, 2013 by 11thorderknight

[Swimmingly]

That would require being a full feruchemist, though...I think those are all gone

[Oudeis]

We know that fechuchemically-powered allomancy exists, because TLR was able to do insanely high-powered allomancy that no one could explain. My theory is that this involved storing and tapping Investiture through a nicromind.

 

I know this is how it works in the MAG, but I don't think so. Compounding for Feruchemy only requires the one metal two different ways. I don't think Compounding for Allomancy has to be any more complicated. I know this makes a Soulbearer not terribly useful on his own, but a duralumin gnat isn't very helpful on HIS own, either. Not every Ferring and Misting is useful. Still, it's just a feeling I have, and I can't prove it any more than you can prove yours, beyond "it feels right". I guess we'll have to wait and see who will turn out to be right.

 

That would require being a full feruchemist, though...I think those are all gone

 

I don't believe they are. My first read-through I assumed the same thing, but on my second read I was on the lookout; they expressly say that there are no more full Mistborn, and I just assumed that meant there also were no more Keepers, but why would they die out? The power stayed, as strong as it ever was, after all living Feruchemists were transmogrified, and through a thousand years of selective breeding. After only 300 years, I'm sure there are at least a few Terris families who kept their bloodlines pure enough to be full Keepers.

[18th Shard]

I am going to agree with Darnam. If Compounding for Feruchemy only requires one to be a Misting and Ferring of one metal, why wouldn't it be the same for Allomantic Compounding?

[Scriptorian]

I am going to agree with Darnam. If Compounding for Feruchemy only requires one to be a Misting and Ferring of one metal, why wouldn't it be the same for Allomantic Compounding?

Pretty much the only evidence we have is we haven't seen any Twinborn try it, but it would mean that Ferrings can actually store two things, their metal's attribute and corresponding allomantic power, and I don't think there's any precedence for a power in one system being directly related to a power in another system. The only thing I can think of is that Feruchemy was broken up by the introduction of allomantic genes, so I guess it's possible that the two powers are tied together now. Either way we're just guessing  .

 

I think I heard somewhere that it is theoretically possible to burn a Hemalurgic spike the same way you can Compound a metalmind, but the problem was that you'd be "locked out" of the spike's power unless you've been spiked with it, the same way you can't compound someone else's metalmind. Having a hemalurgic spike in your stomach sounds painful to me. (It's possible I completely made this up, since I have no idea where I would've read it, but it makes sense to me).

 

In any case, it's clear you've thought about this quite a bit. You explained Compounding, as we know it, very well, and came up with some decent extrapolations.

[Oudeis]

 

Pretty much the only evidence we have is we haven't seen any Twinborn try it, but it would mean that Ferrings can actually store two things, their metal's attribute and corresponding allomantic power, and I don't think there's any precedence for a power in one system being directly related to a power in another system.

 

 

Isn't that the basis of Compounding Feruchemy? Mistings can actually burn two things, so I don't see why Ferrings wouldn't be able to store two. Miles can burn a goldmind for either goldshadows of his past, or the stored health. It seems to be the same principle that if a Steel compounder burned steel while wearing a steelmind (yo dawg, I heard you like steel,) he'd be able to store that Allomantic power in his Steelmind. Just my two cents.

[11thorderknight]

For one thing, there's no reason that "allomantic compounding" has to exist. In the books, "compounding" is the term used for the "hack" of fueling feruchemical abilities with allomancy, which can be done by someone who has access to both the allomantic and feruchemical abilities of the same metal. We know that the opposite situation - fueling allomantic abilities with feruchemy - is possible, because we've seen TLR do it. But think about it for a moment; if all that this second "hack" required was access to both abilities for the same metal, then in 300 years at least one Twinborn would have found it, and it would be a known thing. My theory is that this second hack requires something different; namely, access to the ability to store pure Investiture. 

[Scriptorian]

Isn't that the basis of Compounding Feruchemy? Mistings can actually burn two things, so I don't see why Ferrings wouldn't be able to store two. Miles can burn a goldmind for either goldshadows of his past, or the stored health. It seems to be the same principle that if a Steel compounder burned steel while wearing a steelmind (yo dawg, I heard you like steel,) he'd be able to store that Allomantic power in his Steelmind. Just my two cents.

Okay, I see what you mean. I think the difference is that a Misting has the power to burn a certain metal. That metal, when burned, filters the power of preservation to create an effect based on the metal. This effect is not something inherent to the allomancer, the ability to burn the metal is. I think Compounding works when the feruchemical charge in the metal acts like a filter on the incoming preservation-investure, so they energy is relased as the feruchemical attribute instead of the normal effect. So assuming I've interpreted this right, allomacers can't "burn two things", they can burn one metal, and that metal filters the power of preservation in different ways.

 

Now, you could argue that since all of this is inherent in the metal, then a ferring of that metal should be able to store whatever "thing" is associated with that metal, like allomantic power. But I would argue that a metals feruchemical and allomantic properties are not so accessible by the other systems means of access (tapping and burning respectively), otherwise an allomancer could burn a metal for the feruchemical effect without having to store anything first. This would also hypothetically mean that you could access a metal's Hemallurgic properties freely. I hope this makes sense.

 

Granted, we don't know if allomancy and fercuchemy actually work this way, with the powers being inherent to the metal and not the individual. In any case, it feels like we would have heard if it was as simple as storing allomantic power as an attribute in its corresponding metal.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Serendipity

[Shardlet]

Here is WoB that I believe is pertinent to the present discussion:

 

Source

Q: When a twinborn burns a charged metalmind, does he choose between getting the allomantic effect or the compounding effect or does he just get the compounding effect or does he get both?

 

A: Umm…drr drr drr…I believe it is only the compounded effect.

[18th Shard]

I don't think it would need to be different. From what Wax thinks of Miles, we can safely assume that Compounders are pretty rare. Even if you could figure it out, wuold there be any way or reason for you to tell others? When you burn a metal, it is apparently pretty obvious there are other power sources you could burn (from Vin's point of view). However, storing an attribute probably doesn't have a big obvious, "You can store Speed now...and now..and now.."You would have to be conciously aware that you could store your Allomancy, and have to be a twinborn type that is already a rare occurence.

Edited November 20, 2013 by 18th Shard

[Scriptorian]

Hmmm...at this point I just want to read the next mistborn trilogy...

[Oudeis]

When you burn a metalmind, do you give off bronzepulses like allomancy? I know we've got WoB that in theory a Seeker could detect a feruchemist, but that it "feels" different than allomancy. Does compounding "feel" like allomancy, feruchemy, some combination of both, or something altogether new?

[Scriptorian]

Compounding is still technically allomancy (I think), so I would guess that it would simply give off a different pulse than normal since your accessing a different power.

[entropicscholar]

I love the thoughts you've given here, but I have to say I disagree with your 6 versions of compounding.

the reason is thus:

4. Compounding is done by beginning one magic system, then, before completing it, beginning a second system, then utilizing the Investiture."

 

this limits the number of different kinds of compounding there can be, as well as limiting their utility. Why? because you cannot begin an Allomantic process without finishing it.

 

Beyond this one point, I would cite examples from the books, as well as a small amount of logic.

Above anything else, Brandons magic is simple, logical, and predictable. other wise we wouldn't get to debate it this way at all.
 

My edition of the 6 versions of compounding is thus:

 

1. Allomantically powering Feruchemy -> Store attribute, burn metalmind, gain powers!

    - Gains Benefits of Extra Investiture

    - Also consumes metalmind

    - Must be a Twinborn for the same metal.

*This is all entirely correct. most of what we know of compounding comes from examples of this form. In many cases, it is also wise to store excess Ferrochemic power in a metalmind.

Example: Brandon has previously stated that compounding Atium can reduce an adult to infancy.

 

2. Feruchemically powering Allomancy -> Burn metal, somehow store power in a metalmind, tap to use.

*There are two basic possibilities for this:

   *Store with Nicrosil: you may use this method with any allomantic metal. The advantages / possibilities of this are endless. The net result is similar to duralium use.

    -Technically, a Nicrosil Ferring is able to store Investiture from any source he has access to. This allows a Twinborn to burn metals without them generating their normal effect. The investiture may then be stored for latter use.

    -When tapping Nicrosil Ferrochemically, it will have a direct effect only if it is used in conjunction with another kind of investature. Once the second type has been tapped breifly (this creates the necessary "filter" to create a specific effect), the remainder of the energy needed can be provided partially or entirely by Ferrochemic Nicrosil.

    - after burning a metal for ~1/2 second, the Twinborn can gain the desired effect almost entirely by ferrochemic power alone.

    - can create Duralium-like results, as well.

    -The exact abilities of a soulbearer, beyond this, are fairly unknown. The few hints given thus far indicate extreme versatility.

    *A Twinborn of this form can be nicknamed a “soulburner”. Each of the individual types of soulburners would, of course, have their own names as well.

   *The Second version is arguably not “Compounding” at all. I call it “Synergising”. Essentially, you burn one allomantic metal, and store the qualities it produces, via Ferrochemy. The result is an essentially endless supply of Ferrochemic power, which can be recharged Quickly. The following Twinborn combinations would be considered “Synergisers”:

Alomantic   Ferrochemic   Quality

Pewter        Pewter            stength

Pewter        Steel               speed

Pewter        Brass             wakefulness

Pewter        Gold                health

Atium          Brass              mental speed

Tin               Tin                  senses

Gold            Aluminum       identity

Gold            Electrum        determination

There are likely other versions of this I have missed. The benefit is similar to compounding, though not quite as dramatic.

* I beleive Marsh used the Pewter-gold combination at the end of Hero of Ages. Without doing so, I do not see how he would have been able to survive his near-decapitation, as he cannot compound gold. I cannot confirm this, however,  without asking Brandon directly.
 

3. Allomantically powering Hemalurgy -> Spike someone, burn spike, gain power!

    - Major Boost in Hemalurgic quality stolen

    - Major increase in Hemalurgic insanity, and vulnerability to emotional Allomancy

    - Consumes Spike so you can’t have the ability forever, just until it runs out. Now you have to go spike someone else.

    - Must be Misting of metal Spike is made of

    - Spike must be placed in body to pierce the stomach. [must pierce the body in order to grant its hemalurgic effect. Must be contained in stomach to be burned.] This may or may not be a valid bind point. see post # 55

 

     * These metals will alow access to second qualities, similar to the effect of 'compounding Allomancy to power Ferrochemy': Iron, Tin, Copper, Zinc. Nicrosil, Chromium, Cadmium and Bendalloy will do likewise, but the qualities they grant are unknown.

     * These metals will alow allomantic bursts of power similar to that experienced through duralium: Steel, Brass, Aluminum, Electrum

     *These metals will alow increased Ferrochemic ability: Pewter, Brass, Duralium, Gold

 

*I would nickname those who use this method "souleaters". The name comes from Harmony's explanation in Hero of Ages that "Koloss were not a combination of 5 bodies but 5 souls", thus hinting that it is part of the soul itself that is stolen during Hemelugy. (on a side note, this would indicate that 'Hemelurgic decay' is actually a very good thing, as it allows the soul to escape imprisonment)

 

4. Feruchemically powering Hemalurgy

      *Unfortunately, Ferrochemically storeing a quality in a Hemelurgic spike does not grant any particular benefit, nor let you draw the Hemelurgic quality Ferrochemically. This is demonstrated in Hero of Ages when Marsh uses one of his eyespikes as a steelmind, but is not able to compound in any way by using this method.

      *There is a theory regarding the use of a nicrosilmind, since that stores 'untyped' investiture. if the same metalmind were made into a hemelurgic spike, Ferrochemy should be able to power the effect of the spike. this is not necessarily possible with other metals, however, nor do we know the hemelurgic effect of nicrosil.

 

5. Hemalurgically powering  Feruchemicemy

      *The basic benefit here is the ability to share metalminds

      *Process: Spike a Ferring --> Stab some with the charged Hemelurgic spike; this person stores a quality in the spike, or another metalmind -->Remove Spike, place in another person; this person draws stored quality from metalmind

      *limitations:

         - the initial Ferring dies, as per Hemalurgy

         - removing hemelurgic spikes can be harmful, thus removing the benefit of sharing some powers

         - must know Hemelurgic bind points

         - must use a bind point that is not lethal to remove spikes from       

         - must use a Pewter, Brass, Duralium, or Gold spike

      *larger Potential: true compounding of Hemelurgy and Ferrochemy (Theoretical. not confirmed)

         - if two people are connected to one another by both being peirced by the same Hemelurgic spike, one could arguably draw Ferrochemic power directly from the other person (assuming the spike granted Ferrochemic power, and the apropriate metal was available to use as a bridge. You would essentially be forcing the other to store, while you drew power from them.)

6. Hemalurgically powering Allomancy -> This is done in the books. It's sadly mundane.

    - This is the way Steel Inquisitors are made.

    - You have to spike people, know bindpoints, lose power, etc.

    - The person receiving the spike gains the permanent ability to burn a given allomantic metal

    - If the person receiving the spike is the same type of Mistling as the power stored in the spike, the power stacks. This is how Vin gained the ability to pierce copperclouds.

Edited December 18, 2013 by entropicscholar

[entropicscholar]

When you burn a metalmind, do you give off bronzepulses like allomancy? I know we've got WoB that in theory a Seeker could detect a feruchemist, but that it "feels" different than allomancy. Does compounding "feel" like allomancy, feruchemy, some combination of both, or something altogether new?

 

 

Compounding is still technically allomancy (I think), so I would guess that it would simply give off a different pulse than normal since your accessing a different power.

in The Well of Ascention, Vin is able to sense the presence of the Well via bronzeburning. she is also able to notice the presence of a 'Mist Spirit' later revealed as Preservation, via the same method. This indicates to me that Compounding would work similarly, just as Serendipity says.

--

I was myself unaware of the theory you cite, as to a seeker being able to sense Ferrochemists, but as I've already shown, Seekers can sense things that are not strictly 'Allomancy'. I can tell you nothing regarding the exact limits, however.

[Pechvarry]

 Mistings can actually burn two things, so I don't see why Ferrings wouldn't be able to store two.

 

I wanted to highlight this concept.  Personally, I feel this is true of tapping an allomantic charge in a metalmind.  I.e. Miles should be able to tap any stored gold shadows (that would be weird btw) in a goldmind.  The problem is, I'm not convinced he would possess the ability to store them in the first place.  

[entropicscholar]

I wanted to highlight this concept.  Personally, I feel this is true of tapping an allomantic charge in a metalmind.  I.e. Miles should be able to tap any stored gold shadows (that would be weird btw) in a goldmind.  The problem is, I'm not convinced he would possess the ability to store them in the first place.  

I think you've come upon a very important point here. If he could store his gold-shadows, it would make sense for him to draw them out again later.

But he can't store his gold-shadows for later.

Serendipity gave a very good description of why:

 

Okay, I see what you mean. I think the difference is that a Misting has the power to burn a certain metal. That metal, when burned, filters the power of preservation to create an effect based on the metal. This effect is not something inherent to the allomancer, the ability to burn the metal is. I think Compounding works when the feruchemical charge in the metal acts like a filter on the incoming preservation-investure, so they energy is relased as the feruchemical attribute instead of the normal effect. So assuming I've interpreted this right, allomacers can't "burn two things", they can burn one metal, and that metal filters the power of preservation in different ways.

 

Now you might say that a ferring should be able to "store" any attribute associated with the metal he uses, But that really isn't what ferrings do. Whenever Sazed created a new metalmind, he did just that: he created a metalmind. It describes specifically (when Sazed is researching the hero of ages, with Tindwyl) that when he first stores memories in his copper ring he Transforms it into a metalmind. even though the physical properties of the ring may not have changed, the cognitive and spiritual properties have changed. technically, the ring is no longer 'just copper', but rather is a new substance called a 'copper metalmind', or a 'coppermind', specufically attuned to Sazed. (If it did not work this way, there would be nothing stopping Ferrochemists from sharing their metalminds. it is the fact that the objects used have been spiritually and cognatively altered to recognize the Ferring or Ferrochemist which created them that creates this specificity. Likewise, this is why a single Tinmind can only store one sense, rather than multiple senses; it is only attuned to one, and even if it is emptied it will only be able to accept that one kind of sense again, to be stored later on.)

 

Now. Twinborn. Compounding.

Lets say a Copper-Copper twinborn (called a recaller), named Jasmine, created a metalmind from her copper earring, and begins to store her memories in it. As Jasmine stores more and more memories in the earring the cognitive properties of that ring change more and more (the same way the cognitive properties of a person change, as they learn, and gain experience).

Because the ring has retained all of its physical properties, it can still be burned by an allomancer, filtering investature to create the normal effect of a smoker burning copper.

Because the spiritual and cognitive properties are different, it can act as a different kind of filter for investature. (a recaller burning her metalminds can recall the entirety of the knowledge stored in his metalminds, by burning them, and can do so any number of times, until the metal is used up.) When a Ferring draws from their metalminds normally, they are in fact not drawing strength, memory, or breath: they are drawing investature, and using the metalmind as a filter for the correct type of effect.

 

(This also explains a great deal about nicrosil, which stores untyped investature. It also raises questions about copper, gold and duralium. these questions are not terribly difficult to answer, mind you, but I'll wait for someone to ask before I set them to field)

Edited December 14, 2013 by entropicscholar

[Oudeis]

I think you've come upon a very important point here. If he could store his gold-shadows, it would make sense for him to draw them out again later.

But he can't store his gold-shadows for later.

Serendipity gave a very good description of why:

Now you might say that a ferring should be able to "store" any attribute associated with the metal he uses, But that really isn't what ferrings do. Whenever Sazed created a new metalmind, he did just that: he created a metalmind. It describes specifically (when Sazed is researching the hero of ages, with Tindwyl) that when he first stores memories in his copper ring he Transforms it into a metalmind. even though the physical properties of the ring may not have changed, the cognitive and spiritual properties have changed. technically, the ring is no longer 'just copper', but rather is a new substance called a 'copper metalmind', or a 'coppermind', specufically attuned to Sazed. (If it did not work this way, there would be nothing stopping Ferrochemists from sharing their metalminds. it is the fact that the objects used have been spiritually and cognatively altered to recognize the Ferring or Ferrochemist which created them that creates this specificity. Likewise, this is why a single Tinmind can only store one sense, rather than multiple senses; it is only attuned to one, and even if it is emptied it will only be able to accept that one kind of sense again, to be stored later on.)

Now. Twinborn. Compounding.

Lets say a Copper-Copper twinborn (called a recaller), named Jasmine, created a metalmind from her copper earring, and begins to store her memories in it. As Jasmine stores more and more memories in the earring the cognitive properties of that ring change more and more (the same way the cognitive properties of a person change, as they learn, and gain experience).

Because the ring has retained all of its physical properties, it can still be burned by an allomancer, filtering investature to create the normal effect of a smoker burning copper.

Because the spiritual and cognitive properties are different, it can act as a different kind of filter for investature. (a recaller burning her metalminds can recall the entirety of the knowledge stored in his metalminds, by burning them, and can do so any number of times, until the metal is used up.) When a Ferring draws from their metalminds normally, they are in fact not drawing strength, memory, or breath: they are drawing investature, and using the metalmind as a filter for the correct type of effect.

(This also explains a great deal about nicrosil, which stores untyped investature. It also raises questions about copper, gold and duralium. these questions are not terribly difficult to answer, mind you, but I'll wait for someone to ask before I set them to field)

What is your source for this information on how recallers work?

[entropicscholar]

What is your source for this information on how recallers work?

Sadly, I have to admit that the statement of what recallers do is speculative.

That's part of why I put it in small print.

 

It seems clear to me, by the name itself, as well as the nature of compounding, that they would Probably be able to recall the same information from their copperminds multiple times, but since a copper compounder has never been specifically featured (or, to the best of my knowledge, even asked about) we're largely guessing as to what they can do.

 

As to my sources on everything else, I lean largely on things directly (and indirectly) stated or described in the first mistborn trilogy.

It is suprising to me, how much is overlooked in that. much of this discussion was given, or at least hinted, in books 1 and 3.

[dj26792]

I think you've come upon a very important point here. If he could store his gold-shadows, it would make sense for him to draw them out again later.

But he can't store his gold-shadows for later.

Serendipity gave a very good description of why:

 

 

Now you might say that a ferring should be able to "store" any attribute associated with the metal he uses, But that really isn't what ferrings do. Whenever Sazed created a new metalmind, he did just that: he created a metalmind. It describes specifically (when Sazed is researching the hero of ages, with Tindwyl) that when he first stores memories in his copper ring he Transforms it into a metalmind. even though the physical properties of the ring may not have changed, the cognitive and spiritual properties have changed. technically, the ring is no longer 'just copper', but rather is a new substance called a 'copper metalmind', or a 'coppermind', specufically attuned to Sazed. (If it did not work this way, there would be nothing stopping Ferrochemists from sharing their metalminds. it is the fact that the objects used have been spiritually and cognatively altered to recognize the Ferring or Ferrochemist which created them that creates this specificity. Likewise, this is why a single Tinmind can only store one sense, rather than multiple senses; it is only attuned to one, and even if it is emptied it will only be able to accept that one kind of sense again, to be stored later on.)

 

Now. Twinborn. Compounding.

Lets say a Copper-Copper twinborn (called a recaller), named Jasmine, created a metalmind from her copper earring, and begins to store her memories in it. As Jasmine stores more and more memories in the earring the cognitive properties of that ring change more and more (the same way the cognitive properties of a person change, as they learn, and gain experience).

Because the ring has retained all of its physical properties, it can still be burned by an allomancer, filtering investature to create the normal effect of a smoker burning copper.

Because the spiritual and cognitive properties are different, it can act as a different kind of filter for investature. (a recaller burning her metalminds can recall the entirety of the knowledge stored in his metalminds, by burning them, and can do so any number of times, until the metal is used up.) When a Ferring draws from their metalminds normally, they are in fact not drawing strength, memory, or breath: they are drawing investature, and using the metalmind as a filter for the correct type of effect.

 

(This also explains a great deal about nicrosil, which stores untyped investature. It also raises questions about copper, gold and duralium. these questions are not terribly difficult to answer, mind you, but I'll wait for someone to ask before I set them to field)

 

Some of your facts here I'd need to see a source for and some of them I disagree with based on my understanding of WoB, firstly as far as I know we have no confirmation on what compounding copper does, if you've seen something I haven't I'd love to know, but Brandon has been pretty closed mouthed about copper compounding thus far.

 

Secondly your understanding of feruchemy doesn't seem to match with what we know based on stuff that Brandon has said in a few interviews, we know for certain that multiple forms of investiture can be stored in an object at the same time, we also know that multiple feruchemists can store in the same metal mind, they just can't access each others store.

This makes me think its unlikely that there is a fundamental change in a piece of metal that could be a metal mind and a piece of metal that is a metal mind, which seems to be what you are suggesting, otherwise it would almost definitely interfere with other forms of investiture and most likely also interfere with other feruchemists sharing the one metalmind. 

 

On compounding and allomancy I disagree with your theory on the grounds that it can't work that way because you were wrong about feruchemy and it just doesn't feel right, but I need to take a bit more time and do some research before I could articulate clearly what I think is wrong with your theory.

 

Edit:  I attempted to soften the language a bit, it seemed more confrontational than I meant it to be, it still does, for which I apologise, I think you have a really cool idea, I just don't think its right, please take this  as constructive criticism and be encouraged to keep coming up with theories, we'll never know how this stuff works if people don't come up with ideas but sadly most of those ideas will be wrong.

Edited December 15, 2013 by dj26792

[WeiryWriter]

but since a copper compounder has never been specifically featured (or, to the best of my knowledge, even asked about)

 

It has been asked about before, twice actually, but Brandon is being very cryptic and reluctant to share information about it so they are essentially RAFO's.

[Oudeis]

Sadly, I have to admit that the statement of what recallers do is speculative.

That's part of why I put it in small print.

It seems clear to me, by the name itself, as well as the nature of compounding, that they would Probably be able to recall the same information from their copperminds multiple times, but since a copper compounder has never been specifically featured (or, to the best of my knowledge, even asked about) we're largely guessing as to what they can do.

As to my sources on everything else, I lean largely on things directly (and indirectly) stated or described in the first mistborn trilogy.

It is suprising to me, how much is overlooked in that. much of this discussion was given, or at least hinted, in books 1 and 3.

Where did you see that a copper compounder is called a Recaller?

[18th Shard]

I still think you would be able to store the Allomantic attribute. Yes, they have to be able to store the ability, but they are already a Ferring of that metal (see Conjecture 5). This should give them this ability. As for entropicsscholar's ideas, I think Hemalurgically-powering Allomancy means somehow, you store x amount of time's worth of burning, say, pewter in a spike. This spike can be passed along until it runs out of that amount of time, at which point it reverts to being a useless hunk of metal. Feruchemically-Powered Hemalurgy is not storing something in the spike, it is storing the spike's power (so if it were a Pewter spike that stole Feruchemical gold, storing the ability to store/tap Gold) in a metal mind.