Moogle

[SoS Spoilers] Failure to Compound

94 posts in this topic

Would you please go to this thread and tell people all of that, please?

 

 

Sazed's number might be spit-balled, but by your own quote, he's a scholar of both allomantic and feruchemical theory. No, that doesn't mean he's got it perfect, but it does mean he probably knows a ton of things about both arts that we, the readers, do not yet. You're making it sound like he got the number by rolling dice. His knowledge isn't perfect, and no one is saying it is, but can you point to another time Sazed firmly stated something when he was actually just guessing? This is Sazed. The shyest, humblest man ever. Tindwyl gets upset at him because he won't even speak up to defend himself when he is both certain and right; upon what are you basing the assumption that he'd firmly state a solid, concrete number if he had absolutely no basis for it?

 

Wax and Miles: The quote you posted seems to support... everything I say. I didn't call them bosom chums, I called them acquaintances. "Allies, but not friends" seems to fit. "Mostly" from a distance, so they have spent some time together. Elsewhere, Wax talks about how lawmakers are a special alloy and they have to keep watch on each other; the specifics of Miles's powers are exactly the kind of thing he'd know a lot about, and be sure of; after all, look at this scene, where he knows so much about Compounding, when apparently the 'general populace of Elendel' doesn't even believe it really exists. I'm sure the number is vague and inexact, and not "exactly ten", but it's a good reference point. It's also an absolutely perfect time for him to say, "If he stores any health at all in a goldmind, he can burn the entire goldmind, and get health from the whole thing." Instead, he does give us a concrete number.

 

So you're asking us to believe that the resident 'person who knows anything about Compounding' not only doesn't know as much as you do, but that he's so wrong about a crucial aspect (based, apparently, on a firm commitment to making the exact same assumptions someone else made three centuries prior) that he doesn't just say "I don't know" or "some amount more", he gives us an exact number, yet is totally and completely wrong.

 

I'm sorry. Look at my feelings on Teft. When someone in the book has a track record of being wrong about things, I am absolutely willing to believe it's simply faulty "in-universe" knowledge. However, you're asking us to dismiss a lot of evidence from the book itself from people who are both quite knowledgeable on the subject, because there's a small chance that they don't know everything, yet in both cases uncharacteristically firmly and definitively state something they are absolutely positive of, is easily checked and confirmed, yet are totally and absolutely wrong. Yes, I know they're mistaken as to the specific source of the power, and while that's interesting and fundamental in a profound way, it doesn't have a lot of impact on the day-to-day use, and it's not exactly the kind of thing you could simply check with a basic experiment.

 

Wax's grandmother, perhaps I shouldn't have brought her up; she's not good evidence one way or the other. However, you're very, very mistaken if you think someone is ignorant on a subject just because they hate it. "Know thy enemy". "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer." "A man you love to hate." All throughout human history, we've understood that hatred is at least as attractive an emotion as love. Granted, this is poor evidence, but she does state that the mix of feruchemy and allomancy has always been bad, it's too much power in one person; the Sliver ruled the world through its mix. If you think someone like Granny V would deliberately leave herself ignorant of something she thinks is so dangerous... you got a very, very different impression of her than I did.

 

On that subject, let me touch on something somewhat ancillary; keep in mind that when Wax talks about the Sliver's immortality, he amends it, "according to legend." Not historical fact. Recall that Sliverism is a powerful religion in Elendel, and their dogma is likely not "oh, the Sliver was never actually divine, it was just a trick." Like I've said a few times now, there's not just one story going around; that's why Marasi hears about Miles, and dismisses it as hyperbole. Because there's not one "true" story, nor are there a dozen stories but one that is magically hashtagged as "this is what really happened." Wax has two reasons for being more knowledgeable than average on this fact; the first, of course, we now know is his Granny, who clearly preaches the evils of people like Rashek mixing the powers. The second, he's a Pathian. In Alloy, he thinks to himself that it is the Path to study all old religions, and divine the truth from them. The Words, even the Historica, are long and sometimes seen as metaphor, like how Aradel assumed MeLaan's talk of his snoring was an allegory for the Constables. Marasi struck me as someone who would read it for Elend's political theories and Harmony's plans for the city, not for obscura about a type of arcana widely assumed to be impossible anymore. Remember, the Words alone account for literally everything that was in Sazed's copperminds; doesn't he state once that he spent years making them, having another Keeper recite them out to him, word for word? There's a lot to cover, and while I'm sure there are scholars out there on the entirety, I'm equally sure most people know only certain portions well at all. Maybe the section of them that discussed the Sliver's immortality was an assignment she did in grade school and hasn't thought about since. (Maybe she Pulsed through that chapter...)

Subtle.  <_< 

A scholar with no practical experience in compounding whatsoever, he didn't even know it was possible until shortly before that very sentence, he'd literally just discovered the possibility that this might be a thing, I don't care how knowledgeable he is about feruchemy and allomancy separately that doesn't make him immediately have intimate knowledge of compounding.

We have people today who understand general relativity and gravity, doesn't mean we're any closer to even approaching a grand unified field theory, let alone immediately understanding all the consequences thereof.

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Sazed's number might be spit-balled, but by your own quote, he's a scholar of both allomantic and feruchemical theory. No, that doesn't mean he's got it perfect, but it does mean he probably knows a ton of things about both arts that we, the readers, do not yet. You're making it sound like he got the number by rolling dice. His knowledge isn't perfect, and no one is saying it is, but can you point to another time Sazed firmly stated something when he was actually just guessing? This is Sazed. The shyest, humblest man ever. Tindwyl gets upset at him because he won't even speak up to defend himself when he is both certain and right; upon what are you basing the assumption that he'd firmly state a solid, concrete number if he had absolutely no basis for it?

 

First of all, Sazed did not firmly state his tenfold number ("he might be able to burn his own metal storages, releasing the energy within them tenfold").

 

Second of all, I don't care how knowledgeable Sazed is about Feruchemy and Allomancy, there is no way he knew with any certainty how they interacted besides "well you can probably get a lot of an attribute if you burn rather than tap". He performed no experiments, spoke with no Compounders. He did not know where the power for metals came from, which is a vital point to be made when analyzing things. (If you think the power comes from the metal, like it is some sort of battery, then Kurk's overlay model is of course a much more natural conclusion to draw.)

 

Wax is a better example precisely because with any knowledge he got from Miles he might have a reference point (though I still contest that fact, as I know of no point where he would have asked whether or not Miles burned fully charged metalminds, or that Miles would have mentioned the same). Sazed? Sazed was theorizing about how TLR's powers worked at that point! He had no practical numbers to run off of!

 

WoR spoilers:

It is bemoaned that there's no easy way to compare how much Investiture is in a single gem, making it nigh-impossible to get accurate measurements on Kaladin's abilities. How on earth is Sazed supposed to compare the amount of energy you get from Feruchemy to that of Allomancy and give an accurate number? How is his 10x a good reference point?

 

Finally, I'm not even convinced Sazed was behind a multiplicative model:

He used one of the attributes only available to Feruchemy—that of changing his age—but fueled it with Allomancy instead. By burning a Feruchemical storage that he himself had made, he effectively made a new Allomantic metal for himself—one that made him younger when he burned it. If my guess is correct, he would have gained a limitless supply of youth, since he was drawing most of his power from the metal itself, rather than his own body.

 

This sounds almost exactly like what I'm proposing the mechanics are - but of course, I don't use this as evidence for my model, as Sazed is guessing and outright says he is guessing.

 

I'm sorry, but you're the last person I would expect to take Sazed's theorizing - in which he had no quantitative evidence, preventing him from getting any accurate model of the process - and ascribe to him a confidence he doesn't seem to have. I can't take this idea that Sazed is some trustworthy source on the mechanics of a process he's never witnessed first-hand seriously.

 

Perhaps if we had evidence that he knew a lot of things about Allomancy and Feruchemy that we don't, I'd be more open to finding his speculations trustworthy. But Allomancy was not well understood in the Final Empire, so I am not sold on your statement that "it does mean he probably knows a ton of things about both arts that we, the readers, do not yet". (I'll grant you that he definitely knows more about Feruchemy than we do, given his first-hand experience, but Allomancy? Compounding? No. We're straying well into the fallacy of composition there.)

Edited by Moogle
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Subtle.  <_<

 

I've been told I put the 'b' in subtle.

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*Sidesteps multiplicative discussion*

 

This is not what I believe, no. To be more precise in my position: mathematically, you gain some amount of Investiture I for every gram of metal burned. It does not matter whether the metal is not a metalmind, a partially filled metalmind, or a full metalmind, you will receive the same amount of power.

 

However, I believe this amount I is greater than that contained within a full metalmind, so there's likely some benefit to burning a full metalmind. You'd just be more efficient tapping it to near-0 before you burned it because then you'd get I + (amount of Investiture in the metalmind) rather than just I Investiture. (I leave open the possibility that the amount of stored attribute in a metalmind will be released when you burn it, so that there's not actually a benefit to tapping before burning, however. I just believe it will always be beneficial to burn.)

 

The trick with Compounding in the model is not that you multiply the amount of charge stored, it is that you can just gain nearly-free power to use with your Feruchemy that does not require (well... it still does to a small degree) the usual downside to Feruchemy of having to store.

 

 

I like this.

 

 

As you predicted, I don't really buy into this because of my issues with the aluminum WoB. (Sorry. I tried again, I still cannot see how you're interpreting it that way. I still feel awful.)

 

From my perspective of seeing the aluminum WoB differently, this seems really really weird. It's not like the Feruchemical charge is gone, so why should anything have to be switched? Preservation's Investiture would still have to flow through the charge in the metalmind, and should presumably still be affected.

 

 

The last option; the Ferucharge-density may be 1/10th the 1 gram metalmind, but it will still override the Allomantic charge, so he should get 10x the memory out of burning a metalmind 10x the size.

 

I find this slightly counter-intuitive. I like your model better for this situation (and I like mine better for non-copperminds).

 

Okay, I think I've got a firm grasp of where you're coming from, at least. So at this point I'll just say that I disagree. I think most of the relevant WoBs on the subject have been brought up by now, though, and given that we both seem to understand the other's model well enough there doesn't seem to be anything to be gained by continuing.

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That's fair. I'll just sit back and let the WoBs flow then, I suppose.

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So, I just realised, Bleeder was probably not burning steelminds but simply just tapping speed with feruchemy. If she was burning steelminds, she could have used steelpushes and steelspeed with the same spike. Which she didn't. Maybe it was because she could not burn the steelminds in the first place, perhaps she didn't think to try, or it's possible the lack of control made it just not worth it.

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It's also possible that she simply never had a reason to steelpush while she was using Feruchemical steel, the most OP of the non-Atium powers.

 

There's also the possiblity that some difficulty arises with trying to switch between burning Allomantic and Feruchemical reserves of the same metal.

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the most OP of the non-Atium powers.

 

Not positive I agree here. I think I'd give this match to the steelrunner every time.

 

Bleeder shows that she can react in bullet-time. Vin was able to fool atium by reading Zane's reaction without this ability. So picture it. The steelrunner intends to come from the left and put nineteen knives in the Seer's brain in the space of a second. The Seer sees this coming; the shadow itself moves too fast to see or react to, but that doesn't matter, atium guides one's actions anyway. So she holds up her own knife so that now, the steelrunner would run straight into it before killing her.

 

Except we saw from Wax-in-the-speed-bubble that Bleeder can react that fast. So now the steelrunner is coming at her, she looks like a statue holding out a knife, and instead of thinking, "Well, I had planned to walk this route, so I'm going to anyway, guess I should just die," decides to circle and come at her from the right.

 

Now, since his decision is based ultimately on something that came about from atium burning, his shadow splits, like Vin's did with Zane. Now there's a second atium shadow to the right. We saw from Zane that atium guiding one's actions cannot tell which shadow actually will happen (he blocked the wrong one, remember). But let's say this Seer is better at atium. And has a second knife. So the Seer holds out knives to block both incoming shadows. Well, now upon approach, the Steelrunner sees a statue holding out two knives. And so he comes at her from behind instead.

 

So now we're in a position where the Seer sees at least three shadows. Even if she can come up with a third way to make the approach dangerous in the span of a few seconds (so no laying down trapdoors or anything), this can continue easily until there are a dozen shadows and the Seer cannot possibly block them all; since the Steelrunner isn't selecting his approach randomly, he's selecting the unguarded one, he has a 100% chance of getting in and killing her.

 

Atium is basically worthless against a steelrunner. And at the rate it burns, you're almost certain to run out of it before the Steelrunner drains his speed reserves, anyway.

 

Steelrunning: Taking Godmetal allomancy out back behind the woodshed and tanning its hide. This is why the system is now broken.

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Not positive I agree here. I think I'd give this match to the steelrunner every time.

 

Bleeder shows that she can react in bullet-time. Vin was able to fool atium by reading Zane's reaction without this ability. So picture it. The steelrunner intends to come from the left and put nineteen knives in the Seer's brain in the space of a second. The Seer sees this coming; the shadow itself moves too fast to see or react to, but that doesn't matter, atium guides one's actions anyway. So she holds up her own knife so that now, the steelrunner would run straight into it before killing her.

 

Except we saw from Wax-in-the-speed-bubble that Bleeder can react that fast. So now the steelrunner is coming at her, she looks like a statue holding out a knife, and instead of thinking, "Well, I had planned to walk this route, so I'm going to anyway, guess I should just die," decides to circle and come at her from the right.

 

Now, since his decision is based ultimately on something that came about from atium burning, his shadow splits, like Vin's did with Zane. Now there's a second atium shadow to the right. We saw from Zane that atium guiding one's actions cannot tell which shadow actually will happen (he blocked the wrong one, remember). But let's say this Seer is better at atium. And has a second knife. So the Seer holds out knives to block both incoming shadows. Well, now upon approach, the Steelrunner sees a statue holding out two knives. And so he comes at her from behind instead.

 

So now we're in a position where the Seer sees at least three shadows. Even if she can come up with a third way to make the approach dangerous in the span of a few seconds (so no laying down trapdoors or anything), this can continue easily until there are a dozen shadows and the Seer cannot possibly block them all; since the Steelrunner isn't selecting his approach randomly, he's selecting the unguarded one, he has a 100% chance of getting in and killing her.

 

Atium is basically worthless against a steelrunner. And at the rate it burns, you're almost certain to run out of it before the Steelrunner drains his speed reserves, anyway.

 

Steelrunning: Taking Godmetal allomancy out back behind the woodshed and tanning its hide. This is why the system is now broken.

Against a Seer the Steelrunner might win but if they were both against other opponents the Seer usually would, especially in protracted battles since feruchemy's a lot more vulnerable to running out than Allomancy is. So if it was them against say a hundred enemies I'd probably give the win to the Seer, they're basically impossible to kill without supernatural help. A steelrunner might be able to dispatch 10 or even twenty before the others can so much as blink but they'd run out of speed pretty quickly and there's always the chance that they'd get hit from behind before they noticed they needed to move.

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Not positive I agree here. I think I'd give this match to the steelrunner every time.

Bleeder shows that she can react in bullet-time. Vin was able to fool atium by reading Zane's reaction without this ability. So picture it. The steelrunner intends to come from the left and put nineteen knives in the Seer's brain in the space of a second. The Seer sees this coming; the shadow itself moves too fast to see or react to, but that doesn't matter, atium guides one's actions anyway. So she holds up her own knife so that now, the steelrunner would run straight into it before killing her.

Except we saw from Wax-in-the-speed-bubble that Bleeder can react that fast. So now the steelrunner is coming at her, she looks like a statue holding out a knife, and instead of thinking, "Well, I had planned to walk this route, so I'm going to anyway, guess I should just die," decides to circle and come at her from the right.

Now, since his decision is based ultimately on something that came about from atium burning, his shadow splits, like Vin's did with Zane. Now there's a second atium shadow to the right. We saw from Zane that atium guiding one's actions cannot tell which shadow actually will happen (he blocked the wrong one, remember). But let's say this Seer is better at atium. And has a second knife. So the Seer holds out knives to block both incoming shadows. Well, now upon approach, the Steelrunner sees a statue holding out two knives. And so he comes at her from behind instead.

So now we're in a position where the Seer sees at least three shadows. Even if she can come up with a third way to make the approach dangerous in the span of a few seconds (so no laying down trapdoors or anything), this can continue easily until there are a dozen shadows and the Seer cannot possibly block them all; since the Steelrunner isn't selecting his approach randomly, he's selecting the unguarded one, he has a 100% chance of getting in and killing her.

Atium is basically worthless against a steelrunner. And at the rate it burns, you're almost certain to run out of it before the Steelrunner drains his speed reserves, anyway.

Steelrunning: Taking Godmetal allomancy out back behind the woodshed and tanning its hide. This is why the system is now broken.

Why is the system broken now and not when Vin did what she did? She wasn't burning anything and beat a god metal. A steel runner is tapping something so would have an advantage over what Vin was doing (assuming what your saying is how the battle would actually go). If the system is broken because of your steel runner theory, then it was broken when Vin beat atium. Edited by Witborn
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Vin was insanely skilled and more than a little lucky. Zane was toying with her. He could have won a dozen times during the fight, and chose not to. Even that last blow he struck wasn't killing. She didn't win because the system was broken; she won because Zane was Casey at the bat.

 

Vin was a one-time thing, due to a great many factors. It didn't change the way all the Metallic Arts worked. If there's a lesson, it's that if you really want to win, kill your opponent, don't just toy with them. Steel breaks the system because regardless of circumstance, steel beats atium. Steel beats everything. Atium was pretty cheating, but at least it ran out insanely fast, and was crazy difficult to get, to boot, and in fact its very existence proved to be a major turning point in the conflict of the Gods.

 

I never said something was broken because one time, a steelrunner managed to beat impossible odds and trick a Seer. I said it's broken because it makes a God Metal take a distant second place.

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Vin was insanely skilled and more than a little lucky. Zane was toying with her. He could have won a dozen times during the fight, and chose not to. Even that last blow he struck wasn't killing. She didn't win because the system was broken; she won because Zane was Casey at the bat.

 

Vin was a one-time thing, due to a great many factors. It didn't change the way all the Metallic Arts worked. If there's a lesson, it's that if you really want to win, kill your opponent, don't just toy with them. Steel breaks the system because regardless of circumstance, steel beats atium. Steel beats everything. Atium was pretty cheating, but at least it ran out insanely fast, and was crazy difficult to get, to boot, and in fact its very existence proved to be a major turning point in the conflict of the Gods.

 

I never said something was broken because one time, a steelrunner managed to beat impossible odds and trick a Seer. I said it's broken because it makes a God Metal take a distant second place.

Still inclined to disagree, again in a one on one duel Steel probably wins (Though it really does depend, if we're talking guns are an option then the Seer shoots the Steelrunner before they can even do anything, and if they're using melee weapons the Steelrunner has to slow down to actually hit someone unless they want their arm to get ripped off) but against a large crowd? I'd put my money on the Atium, Bleeder was only ever able to use her speed in very short bursts otherwise she'd have run out in no time.

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... but against a large crowd? I'd put my money on the Atium, Bleeder was only ever able to use her speed in very short bursts otherwise she'd have run out in no time.

 

...as opposed to the infinitely-burning atium? Also, a steelrunner has the option to flee against a huge crowd.

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...as opposed to the infinitely-burning atium? Also, a steelrunner has the option to flee against a huge crowd.

Still longer than speed, particularly at the levels Bleeder was compounding it at, a fair amount of the Investiture would have been going into compressing the trait.

So does pretty much everyone? Especially if they had magical foresight to dodge any projectiles launched in their direction.

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UPDATE:
 
So that's a RAFO on Paalm compounding.
 
Source:

[1:46:26]
Kurk: So if you're a Coinshot and you get [spiked] to have Feruchemical steel, and then you lose the spike after making a store, you can still Compound that for speed?
A: Yes... Yeah, that should still work.
Q: Was Paalm doing that?
A: That's a RAFO.

 

EDIT:

 

Also got a RAFO on the aluminum compounding question. Honestly I was flabbergasted, as I didn't even consider the possibility of a RAFO. If I had, I would have just asked the base question of "do you get a little bit of Allomantic burn first..." and called it a day.

 

[1:45:47]

Kurk: Is it possible to Compound aluminum, or will it all just poof away the second you start trying it?
A: (laugh) I have actually been asked that. And I RAFO'd them, so I'm going to RAFO you.
Edited by Kurkistan
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PhantomMonstrosity has found an interesting gem of huge relevance.

 

Apparently, compounding isn't as simple as we thought. Skip to the final section, Inquisitor's Speed, for the relevant data.

 

So, after a year (right? It's been months, if not a year, since Ruin was freed, right?) of practice, with Ruin directly controlling them, the Inquisitors still cannot compound. It's way, way harder to compound than we thought. It's now been... 18 months? Or so? Since Lessie "died". Much less than a month since she took Idashwy's feruchemical steel.

 

I know there are reasons to suspect her circumstances could have been different, but the default is now, "it takes over a year to learn how to compound a metal." Sure, we could invent and speculate, but the point is she clearly does not compound, and even if she technically had the ability to, the presumptive state is that she lacked the skill. It's no longer shocking that she didn't.

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I feel like we've come across two solid questions here that someone should ask Brandon directly next time they get a chance:

1) Is it possible to compound aluminum, or would the aluminum allomantic effect cause the aluminum to dissappear before any feruchemical effect occurs? (I think the current WoB leaves this issue somewhat unresolved)

2) If a steel compounder spent a minute filling a very large steel building with speed, would they be able to compound almost indefinitely by collecting small flakes from that building?

I will add that, on a practical level, scenario 2 is unlikely, since allomantic steel is a special alloy, and it would be unlikely for you to find allomantically perfect steel in a regular building (or any other very large quantity).

Edited by Authweight
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I will add that, on a practical level, scenario 2 is unlikely, since allomantic steel is a special alloy, and it would be unlikely for you to find allomantically perfect steel in a regular building (or any other very large quantity).

 

There's no point to doing it to a large building, even if it's a perfect alloy. Under this theory, you can just store for a few milliseconds as you swallow some steel flakes (or have done the same for every flake before, if you're Paalm), and then burn them for Compounding. No need to make a big deal out of it. Though I guess it's useful for Allomantic gold spike shenanigans.

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I feel like we've come across two solid questions here that someone should ask Brandon directly next time they get a chance:

1) Is it possible to compound aluminum, or would the aluminum allomantic effect cause the aluminum to dissappear before any feruchemical effect occurs? (I think the current WoB leaves this issue somewhat unresolved)

 

If you'll look three posts up, Brandon's currently in RAFO-mode for that question.  <_<

Edited by Kurkistan
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If you'll look three posts up, Brandon's currently in RAFO-mode for that question. <_<

Oh crap, I missed that somehow

There's no point to doing it to a large building, even if it's a perfect alloy. Under this theory, you can just store for a few milliseconds as you swallow some steel flakes (or have done the same for every flake before, if you're Paalm), and then burn them for Compounding. No need to make a big deal out of it. Though I guess it's useful for Allomantic gold spike shenanigans.

Well if you were a certain kandra who could store speed and burn steel, but not do both at the same time, it could potentially come in handy

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Was looking through some old WoBs today and stumbled across some that are relevant to this thread. The first discusses how two people storing attributes into the same metalmind would store them in separate parts of the metal. Which I think supports the idea that investiture doesn't spread out equally through the metal mind. 

 

The second is Brandon's 2012 answer on aluminum compounding. Stating that it doesn't do much.

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=977#78

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=977#65

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UPDATE:
 
From the recent AMA:
 
Source:

yurisses:
If Miles stored a very tiny bit of health into a gold bead and then burned it, what would happen? Would he see gold shadows for a time and then obtain compounded health when reaching the charged part of the bead? Would the bead be evenly charged and deliver only health, no gold shadows, but at a very low rate since only little health was loaded in it? Would the bead be eveny charged and deliver only health, but at a standard rate the user would always get when compounding?

Brandon:
He'd hack the system to deliver health for a short time instead of doing what it was supposed to do, but only until the small portion of gold invested with his investiture ran out.


So that answers the "I-beam as a steelmind" question, and is suggestive for the "do you get a smidgen of Allomantic effect every time" question. For the second, it's been pointed out that this would have been an excellent time for Brandon to mention "short circuiting", if it existed, and the fact that he doesn't may well indicate that it doesn't happen.

 

I'm still leaning towards short-circuiting, but this doesn't exactly help my case.

 

EDIT:

 

The answer is a bit odd in that it talks about "the small portion of gold invested with [Mile's] investiture" running out. Which suggests that you could store in an I-beam for a minute, then find and break off the one little portion that has Investiture in it. This seems a bit odd and contradictory for what we've seen/had WoB on so far, so I'm inclined to read Brandon as talking about "small portion of gold" in the sense of the gold that happens to be associated with the feruchemical investiture as its burned off, rather than all and only gold atoms 1-10,000 being specifically Invested before Miles even started burning.

 

I've asked a follow-up, though I've not much hope in seeing an answer.

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Thanks to yurisses for asking!
 
In my opinion, this WoB is very suggestive that Paalm was in fact Compounding, and ran out of Invested steel. It explains the absurd speed boosts she put out (which are absurdly overpowered if any normal Steelrunner can put them out that often with less than a week of storing time) and it explains why she ended up with a Coinshot power at the end despite it being an awful decision against Wax: she always had it.
 
(Offhand, some useful anti-Wax powers she should have used instead: Allomantic chromium, Allomantic nicrosil, Allomantic pewter to enhance her already strong kandraness (followed by fleeing through sewers), Allomantic bronze to see where Wax is at all times and so avoid him in crowds.)
 
In my opinion, the power being distributed evenly over the object in question on an atom-by-atom basis (since molecular structure is what matters) is the best and most intuitive way of it working. So if I store in an i-beam, then take a chunk off of it, I end up with a very very very small % of the attribute stored. Of course, this doesn't work too well with the Compounding-is-100%-Feruchemical-first thing. Hm.
 




I also asked the following:
 

Q: Compounding requires practice, according to The Hero of Age's annotations. And yet, it's apparently as easy as burning a metalmind. What was going on that meant the Inquisitors couldn't figure out how to do it (despite Ruin likely knowing how and undoubtedly wanting them to learn) for over a year? What skill did they need to practice doing, exactly?
And what happened while they were practicing burning metalminds without successfully Compounding? Did they get an Allomantic effect?

A: What I think I was getting at in the annotations was a cosmere magic rule that, perhaps, I hadn't completely refined yet. This is the idea that INTENTION is vitally important to the workings of most Cosmere magics.

You can learn to burn metals instinctively over time, but it does take time--time for your body to figure out what it's doing. If you have instruction and guidance, you can pick it up in an evening, like Vin did. Same goes for most of the magics. This ties into Awakening, with the idea that you have to form a command.

 

During Warbreaker was where I really refined this aspect of the magic. Logically, since the beginning of the cosmere, I've wanted all three Realms to be important to the way the magics worked. The "Practice" therefore for compounding is mental practice--a barrier to overcome in understanding what is happening, and what it will do to you.

 

If you already know all of these things by having it explained to you, that barrier is far less high. I think that was what I was talking about in the Annotations, without really having the idea specified yet--though I'd have to look back at the annotation and re-read it to say for certain.

(source)

 
I also asked a follow-up, but there's probably no chance of getting an answer due to how early I asked it.
 
Either way, to me this really confuses the issue of Inquisitors not being able to Compound for a year. I don't really have an explanation for that based on this, since the clear thing coming through this WoB (to me) is that Ruin explaining the mechanics would have meant the Inquisitors could have picked up Compounding in days.

Edited by Moogle
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I also asked the following:

 

 

I also asked a follow-up, but there's probably no chance of getting an answer due to how early I asked it.

 

Either way, to me this really confuses the issue of Inquisitors not being able to Compound for a year. I don't really have an explanation for that based on this, since the clear thing coming through this WoB (to me) is that Ruin explaining the mechanics would have meant the Inquisitors could have picked up Compounding in days.

On the plus side, this does explain why a Compounder could targed the allomantical charged parts of the metal first and how Paalm could have learned compounding Steel quickly after getting a Steel spike.

On the negative side, as you mention, it potentially rips a Kollos sized plot hole into the Hero of Ages. I really hope we get that follow up question answered. :unsure:

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