DSC01 Posted October 6, 2015 Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 This makes me even more curious as to why Hoid has got a beef with Bavadin. Autonomy doesn't really seem like something that is evil, so perhaps Hoid disliked him before he obtained the shard? I don't think Hoid necessarily has a beef with Holders because of their Shards so much as for who they are (except when the nature of the Shard twists their minds, of course, as in Ati's case). I'm pretty sure he just really doesn't like Bavadin. If memory serves, Bavadin was somehow involved in killing Aona and Skai, even if it was mainly Rayse's idea. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blightsong Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 I don't think Hoid necessarily has a beef with Holders because of their Shards so much as for who they are (except when the nature of the Shard twists their minds, of course, as in Ati's case). I'm pretty sure he just really doesn't like Bavadin. If memory serves, Bavadin was somehow involved in killing Aona and Skai, even if it was mainly Rayse's idea. I haven't seen anything mentioning Bavadin's part in killing Aona and Skai, but it would make sense if he dislikes Dominion because of their opposite intents. It also make sense, seeing as how it is unlikely that Odium would be able to 2v1, even if things went horribly wrong for double d. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaladin_stormblessed_ Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 Having a shard with the Intent Autonomy practically spells doom for theories about reuniting all the shards back into Adonalsium, I imagine he would be the one individual unwilling to be part of a team or work together with anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blightsong Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 Having a shard with the Intent Autonomy practically spells doom for theories about reuniting all the shards back into Adonalsium, I imagine he would be the one individual unwilling to be part of a team or work together with anyone. Him... and Odium. Maybe this is why Hoid dislikes them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParadoxicalZen Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 Well, given how Devotion and Dominion are near 'opposites' of Odium and Autonomy, perhaps the two of them thought that those Shards posed the biggest threat to their respective power bases or as said above, Hoid's grudge predates the Shattering/Shard Ascension Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mestiv Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 I think the Autonomy intent drives Bavadin to separate his world from other Shards as much as possible, trying to avoid any interactions with them. He want's to be in full control of his world. So maybe Hoid got kicked out of Bavadin's shardworld because he would interfere too much with it. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) This explains a lot, especially why he's the only shard on his world. Good question, we're lucky Brandon decided to answer. Pretty sure that's the case. In the same breath he says how Odium was basically always a jerk, while Ruin is the nicest guy around.Stands to reason there are non-good or clearly malicious people forced by their shards to take it down a notch. Rayse avoids incorporating other shards for that reason, IIRC; he prefers being pure Odium.Is that not a clear bias towards action over inaction? All shards have that inclination, but in directly opposite pairs merged together they contradict and thus end up stopping themselves constantly.Adonalsium can move, so something, however slight, should logically be there and left at least partially unchecked. Hoid's beef with Bavadin is a lot more natural now, it's exactly the same reason he was writing Frost: he believes strongly in interfering with events on Shardworlds to further his agenda. Bavadin would naturally oppose that, so when he gets into Bavadin's sphere of influence for any reason, Hoid has to deal with a hostile Shard. That doesn't rule out personal reasons as well, but it does explain why he'd continue to apply those feelings to a Shard. Brandon is on record (I believe it might even have been on the TWG forum?) as saying not all shards are as neatly opposed as Preservation and Ruin. Whether that means that everything is paired off and the pairs are a bit looser, or whether some shards don't have opposing pairs, is up for speculation. That said, looking at relationships like Cultivation to Preservation, where they would disagree half the time (where cultivation would want to prune excess or evolve something in a way that changed or ruined it) and agree the other half, (where cultivation would want to fortify, feed, or grow something in a way that preserved its essence) I'd be inclined to suggest that some shards have a more complex relationship with the other Shards' intents than simple opposing pairs. Edited October 7, 2015 by Ari 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 I think the Autonomy intent drives Bavadin to separate his world from other Shards as much as possible, trying to avoid any interactions with them. He want's to be in full control of his world. So maybe Hoid got kicked out of Bavadin's shardworld because he would interfere too much with it. He took this to the extreme, forcing Mr. Sanderson to not publish White Sand's book. And this is the reason of the change of format, from book to graphyc novel 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unhinged Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 Well that answers one question and raises so many others. My biggest question would be does Autonomy mean that he likes to keep to himself? Or that he likes to manipulate others to do his dirty work while he keeps his autonomy? I'm inclined to go with the later just because a magic system that's based entirely of manipulating people sounds pretty cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 I don't think "keeping out of people's business" is necessarily something Autonomy would do. You can make a pretty strong case for him interfering with other worlds, pushing them towards independence. Making sure every Shardworld produces Braveheart... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sovereign Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 I don't think "keeping out of people's business" is necessarily something Autonomy would do. You can make a pretty strong case for him interfering with other worlds, pushing them towards independence. Making sure every Shardworld produces Braveheart... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galavantes Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 It's also possible Bavadin might still be resisting his Shard's Intent after all this time (I seem to recall a WoB saying some holders were still but can't remember the location) Perhaps the shard's intent itself does not allow it to influence its holder. Kind of a catch-22 there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galavantes Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 This explains a lot, especially why he's the only shard on his world. Good question, we're lucky Brandon decided to answer. Hoid's beef with Bavadin is a lot more natural now, it's exactly the same reason he was writing Frost: he believes strongly in interfering with events on Shardworlds to further his agenda. Bavadin would naturally oppose that, so when he gets into Bavadin's sphere of influence for any reason, Hoid has to deal with a hostile Shard. That doesn't rule out personal reasons as well, but it does explain why he'd continue to apply those feelings to a Shard. Brandon is on record (I believe it might even have been on the TWG forum?) as saying not all shards are as neatly opposed as Preservation and Ruin. Whether that means that everything is paired off and the pairs are a bit looser, or whether some shards don't have opposing pairs, is up for speculation. That said, looking at relationships like Cultivation to Preservation, where they would disagree half the time (where cultivation would want to prune excess or evolve something in a way that changed or ruined it) and agree the other half, (where cultivation would want to fortify, feed, or grow something in a way that preserved its essence) I'd be inclined to suggest that some shards have a more complex relationship with the other Shards' intents than simple opposing pairs. Um...who is Frost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 Um...who is Frost? Uh. We don't know much about her (was she a girl? I can't remember...), but she is Nazh's... employer? master? and the one Hoid exchanges letters with in some of WoK/WoR epigraphs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galavantes Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 Uh. We don't know much about her (was she a girl? I can't remember...), but she is Nazh's... employer? master? and the one Hoid exchanges letters with in some of WoK/WoR epigraphs. Interesting, does this info come from unpublished works or wob? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 Uh. We don't know much about her (was she a girl? I can't remember...), but she is Nazh's... employer? master? and the one Hoid exchanges letters with in some of WoK/WoR epigraphs. Now you are confusing Frost with Khriss. Frost is a dragon, and probably the receiver of the letter in the WoK epigraphs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) Multiple WoBs. I am low on time (and high on caffeine), but it went pretty much like this: Is the author of the (The Way of Kings) letter Hoid? Yes. Is the recipient of the (The Way of Kings) letter a dragon? Yes. Who is the oldest character we know? Frost. ??? Frost is the recipient of the Letter Also, I am indeed confusing Frost and Khriss. Nazh works for Khriss. Frost is just a dragon Hoid knows. Edited October 7, 2015 by Argent 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galavantes Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 Dang, this is getting into territory outside the sphere of this forum then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 On the contrary, I doubt more than a handful of people outside this forum know about this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galavantes Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 Fair - Still a restricted topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 Multiple WoBs. I am low on time (and high on caffeine), but it went pretty much like this: Is the author of the (The Way of Kings) letter Hoid? Yes. Is the recipient of the (The Way of Kings) letter a dragon? Yes. Who is the oldest character we know? Frost. ??? Frost is the recipient of the Letter Also, I am indeed confusing Frost and Khriss. Nazh works for Khriss. Frost is just a dragon Hoid knows. I think the missing step is Dragonsteel. Maybe someone who read it could help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aon Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 (edited) This is awesome! Granted, I don't quite understand what it means in the context of what we've seen in previously mentioned long word document. Autonomy seems similar to wanting to just Survive by one's own devices. When I think of a person who's considered a survivalist, they are somebody with absolute autonomy because they don't require the aid of anybody else. Hmmm...is Bavadin our long referenced Survival Shard? Personally I would have to disagree - I would presume that Surival is the Shard not on a world (Brandon has said that there is a Shard not on a world, staying out of others business) and with the state of the Cosmere, that sounds like a wise plan if you want to Survive... Edited October 8, 2015 by aon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 (edited) Fair - Still a restricted topic Nah this sort of thing is exactly what Cosmere Theories is for, as you often need the extra knowledge to theorise well, and it's expected there will be spoilers for everything but the very newest of books here. I could have said "the letter recipient," but assuming you know it's Frost leads to people asking who Frost is if they don't know, and increasing general cosmere literacy. (eg. surprise, there's Dragons!) And yeah, I know literally nothing about Frost myself other than what his reply in WoR reveals, because he's from somewhere in the Dragonsteel/Liar sequence, and knowing his name shouldn't be a big spoiler when Brandon is ready to write those books. It does seem to me that Bavadin would wholeheartedly approve of Frost's attitude, judging from his intent- non-interference is an excellent way to preserve autonomy. Edited October 8, 2015 by Ari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 So, I just got out of the midnight release event, and I asked Brandon what the intent of Bavadin's shard is. After converting with Isaac, he was willing to release it. Bavadin's Intent is Autonomy I'm still amazed you got it out of them. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParadoxicalZen Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 I'm still amazed you got it out of them. Foreshadowing that White Sand may soon appear from the tall grass and attac-...err i mean be on the horizon? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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