[Spoilers] Shadows of Self Full Book Reactions

[Blaze1616]

...

 

Interesting. I'm going to go ahead and label what you've pretty solidly described as the Sharder Symptom. Essentially, it is the symptom that you, as the reader, know about both the Cosmere and the fact that Brandon likes to hide things in plain sight. As a result, upon reading new works, you find yourself over analyzing, which ultimately ruins the experience for you.

 

To put this another way, I'm fairly confident that you read most, if not all, of Brandon's library other than SoS prior to discovering the Cosmere/17th Shard, which means that you fell in love with Brandon because he dupes you, the reader, with his endings. But because you know of all that trickery, you tried to catch him doing it this time, but as a result lost all enjoyment that the book presented. Because it certainly sounds like you were too busy focusing on not letting any subtle hint get past you than you were just enjoying the story.

 

Clear proof that you were exhibiting the Sharder Symptom:

 

The kandra plotline:  The idea of a kandra impersonating a friend in the Well of Ascension worked because of four reasons.  (1) There were a TON of characters that we knew intimately.  (2) We trusted in Vin's abilities to see discrepancies.  (3) The kandra needed to be someone important.  (4) The kandra were (apparently) weak (unable to do allomancy), so we could ignore them as a threat (when we really shouldn't have!).

 

In Shadows, there are only really three characters that we know really well (Wax, Wayne, and Marasi).  That meant that I was constantly looking at every other character wondering if that was the kandra.  It got really annoying, because it meant I couldn't just enjoy the story without thinking I might miss the tip-off that that person was the kandra.  Second, Wax's plan to have secret pass-phrases was stupid since he knew that the kandra could hear him when he was speaking in a bare whisper-- so I had no reason to believe he would be like Vin and be able to spot the kandra.  Third, that left the only important person who could be the kandra to be the governor himself.

Underlined the important sentence.

 

Why did it matter that you catch the tip-off? Why not just enjoy the story, and on a subsequent reread attempt to catch it. Isn't that how you caught most of the other Cosmere easter eggs and foreshadowing for Brandon's other works? But maybe you always over analyze every piece of literature you read for the first time. 

 

Just something to think about. 

[Lightning]

Interesting. I'm going to go ahead and label what you've pretty solidly described as the Sharder Symptom. Essentially, it is the symptom that you, as the reader, know about both the Cosmere and the fact that Brandon likes to hide things in plain sight. As a result, upon reading new works, you find yourself over analyzing, which ultimately ruins the experience for you.

 

To put this another way, I'm fairly confident that you read most, if not all, of Brandon's library other than SoS prior to discovering the Cosmere/17th Shard, which means that you fell in love with Brandon because he dupes you, the reader, with his endings. But because you know of all that trickery, you tried to catch him doing it this time, but as a result lost all enjoyment that the book presented. Because it certainly sounds like you were too busy focusing on not letting any subtle hint get past you than you were just enjoying the story.

 

Clear proof that you were exhibiting the Sharder Symptom:

 

Underlined the important sentence.

 

I agree with this completely.  A lot of it was as you describe.  (I even admitted as much in my post.)  But not all of it.  (See the second spoiler for instance.  My paranoia is not completely unmerited.)

 

 

Why did it matter that you catch the tip-off? Why not just enjoy the story, and on a subsequent reread attempt to catch it. Isn't that how you caught most of the other Cosmere easter eggs and foreshadowing for Brandon's other works? But maybe you always over analyze every piece of literature you read for the first time. 

 

Just something to think about.  

 

I think there is a valid reason I wanted to catch the tip-off, and it actually doesn't have to do with sharder syndrome, per se.  It has more to do with putting myself in the main character's shoes.  If I was in Wax's shoes I really would be looking around every corner for the kandra.  But ESPECIALLY if I started hearing her voice in my head in response to things I said out loud.  I really wouldn't trust anyone around me if I couldn't do what Vin did (which was slightly push on their emotions to see what happened).  It was important to catch this kandra because she is a murderer and very dangerous.

 

In Vin's case, it wasn't as important, nor was the kandra such a huge threat, so it was less important to be suspicious of everyone.

[ccstat]

My theory here is that:

Lessie was ordered by Sazed to become Tan, to try to figure out how Tan knew about hemalurgy, and perhaps infiltrate his secret Trellic society. However, this backfired when Lessie also ate Tan's Trellium spike, thus becoming spiked herself.

This is the best theory for those events I think I've seen yet. Thanks for presenting it!

[Datan Nomlibash]

The End, I don't think that anything else needs to be said. I have to say that I think Steris will be good for Wax going forward. She herself might be kind of withdrawn and eccentric but her actions show that she really understands him and that's what he needs in my opinion.

Also reading this book made me realize that we don't need a mistborn movie, we need a mistborn musical!

"A Hero for the Ages" for the win!

[Stormgate]

On the subject of Steris. Wax leans towards Ruin, and Steris leans towards Preservation. Together, they have Harmony.

You may now shoot me for my almost cliche analogy.

[natc]

On the subject of Steris. Wax leans towards Ruin, and Steris leans towards Preservation. Together, they have Harmony.

You may now shoot me for my almost cliche analogy.

"At first glance, the key and the lock it fits may seem very different," Sazed said. "Different in shape, different in function, different in design. The man who looks at them without knowledge of their true nature might think them opposites, for one is meant to open, and the other to keep closed. Yet, upon closer examination he might see that without one, the other becomes useless. The wise man then sees that both lock and key were created for the same purpose."

Sazed describes Harmony before Harmony was even a thing, really. Especially since the Preservation-Ruin duality appears more literally in Elend and Vin first.

[Lightsworn Panda]

> Finish Shadows of Self

> Why Brandon Why

> The feels

> Sacrifice own brother to Brandon for giving us yet another excellent book

> Sacrifice a puppy to spite Brandon leaving us with such a cold ending

> Immediately go to 17th Shard SoS Spoiler Board

> Hunt down the first chapter of Bands of Mourning and inhale it

> Left satisfied yet unsatisfied at the same time

> Enter cryosleep to weather the long wait for BoM

[Kaymyth]

> Finish Shadows of Self

> Why Brandon Why

> The feels

> Sacrifice own brother to Brandon for giving us yet another excellent book

> Sacrifice a puppy to spite Brandon leaving us with such a cold ending

> Immediately go to 17th Shard SoS Spoiler Board

> Hunt down the first chapter of Bands of Mourning and inhale it

> Left satisfied yet unsatisfied at the same time

> Enter cryosleep to weather the long wait for BoM

 

Why did I think that BoM was early January instead of late January? Gah!

[NE Windrunner]

Just finished SoS and I can now say with confidence that I enjoy Mistborn Era 2 more than Era 1 and that is saying quite a bit about the quality of these novels. Please some one give me the scoop on Trell!!!!

[splinters]

Brandon always manages to fool me! I could not have guessed the way this would have ended or that it would tear at my heart so much. It was a great rollercoaster.

 

My only complaints are:

1. TenSoon didn't seem to fit into things, and his character seemed a bit hollow

2. Harmony should have at least had the courtesy to not make Wax kill. Surely this could have been accomplished some other way.

3. How did I not see that the earring was a hemalurgic spike??

4. Wayne being better than the most skilled Kandra at accents

 

Some things that I think will prove to be pretty important later on:

1. Learning that there are Kandra scientists that deal with the science of being a Kandra (what have they learned about hemalurgy?)

2. The parallelism of Wax and Sazed (betrayed by god)

3. Wayne and his ability to mimic accents (how is he better than a Kandra? Is this some other type of magic somehow?)

4. Whatever it was that *Lessie* did with the Lord ruler

5. Shard pool

6. Alien

[Stormgate]

There are some theories on the origin of Wayne's talent, and as for his superiority over kandra, for thousands of years they were living in a cave. Not getting one's 'a's right is a minor issue, but does raise some questions.

[natc]

Most of the people hiring kandra would be noblemen because they are paid in atium, probably to impersonate servants or other (minor) noblemen, so I suppose it is possible that they just don't have to change accents very often. Assuming each dominance has its own differences, the nobility seem to spend enough time around each other at balls or whatnot that they won't have as much variation as every random dude in every street, city, and slum. Wayne often copies those as well, and would be familiar with them.

[splinters]

Maybe the Kandra just aren't as good at keeping up with the dialect changes because they don't keep up with the frequent changes to dialects. The only problem I have with this, is that Paalm was on the front lines with TLR and with Harmony. I'm sure this required her to be more than just a nobleman, and she would be the most capable Kandra. Perhaps this is just because Wayne collects accents at a level that Kandra can't match. 

[Stormgate]

Or maybe instead of focusing on how kandra are inferior to Wayne, we should focus on how Wayne is superior to the kandra. Before, we may have been able to pass off his mimicry on natural talents people have, like opening doors with your feet (I have trouble with socks, though). But kandra are nigh-immortal beings with millennia of experience in mimicking voices, with the ability to change the makeup of their voicebox to facilitate easier mimicking, even. If such a creature is not as good as Wayne at mimicking voices, then it is likely supernatural. Maybe it's that elusive 'Twinborn effect' we know about.

[RyloKen]

In regards to the unknown shard:

 

I believe for several reasons that the shard is not Odium

1. Odium is very busy on Roshar as is.
   
2. Odium is terrified of Harmony, so would not be likely to challenge him in person, especially not on Harmony's own world. However, he might send a friend to do the dirty work....
   
3. Paalm's entire purpose is to set herself and everyone else free of Harmony's influence and control. If another shard was controlling her, it would logically follow that she would reject this control as well. Unless that shard was influencing her towards "freedom"....
   

So, if it's not Odium, who else could it be? My thoughts point to none other than our friend Bavadin, holding the shard Autonomy. Why? Well,

1.  It seems that Rayse (Odium) and Bavadin may be working together. This theory is not hugely supported, but the writer of The Letter did mention them and his grudges against them respectively in the same sentence, pointing to the fact that they may have more connection than we know. A full theory as to why Rayse and Bavadin may be working together was posted by Spire and can be found here.
   
2. Bavadin's shard is Autonomy, or "freedom from external control or influence; independence." This seems to be exactly what Paalm is fighting for the whole time. What other shard's influence could one who so clearly wants freedom have fallen under save freedom itself? 
   
3. The biggest argument I have seen against Autonomy being the unknown shard is the creatures that Paalm creates through Hemalurgy, likely with the same metal that is in her. This seems to be against Autonomy's intent, taking away the people affected's freedom to choose. However, we know that human sentience on Scadrial comes directly from Preservation. I postulate that the Paalm's Hemalurgic use of Autonomy's metal in this case removes any part/influence of another shard from the person the Hemalurgy is used on. This thus would remove Preservation from them, taking away their sentience and reverting them to a primal, beast-like state. 
   
4. Brandon said that this shard is one we've already seen. Dominion, Devotion, and Honor have all been splintered, it isn't of Harmony, for reasons shown above I don't believe that it is Odium, Cultivation is hiding on Roshar, and Endowment seems content on Nalthis. This leaves only Autonomy.
   

 

Thank you for reading my theory, any comments and responses will be appreciated!

[Landis963]

 

In regards to the unknown shard:

 

I believe for several reasons that the shard is not Odium

1. Odium is very busy on Roshar as is.
2. Odium is terrified of Harmony, so would not be likely to challenge him in person, especially not on Harmony's own world. However, he might send a friend to do the dirty work....
3. Paalm's entire purpose is to set herself and everyone else free of Harmony's influence and control. If another shard was controlling her, it would logically follow that she would reject this control as well. Unless that shard was influencing her towards "freedom"....

Thank you for reading my theory, any comments and responses will be appreciated!

 

 

First let me say that I think the culprit is indeed Autonomy, and I'm playing devil's advocate with this part in order to strengthen the case against him.  Because requoting everything would be a pain and a half, let's take this step-by-step:

 

1.  Odium is very busy on Roshar as is.

 

We still have 3 books of Stormlight to get through before Wax and Wayne happens.  More than enough time for the balance to shift enough for Odium to break away.  

 

2.  Odium is terrified of Harmony, so would not be likely to challenge him in person, especially not on Harmony's own world. However, he might send a friend to do the dirty work....

 

Assuming that Odium has friends in the first place.  Admittedly, we don't know the personality of his Shardholder (beyond Hoid's... biased account) but millenia of slowly being corroded into a force of hatred doesn't exactly leave one with the ability to make friends and influence people.  Besides, in the circle of cosmere-aware people who know of Odium, very few of them would count themselves his ally after he murdered 2 Shards on their home turf, and then did repeat performances first on Roshar then on another Shardworld that Brandon hasn't published yet, if he ever will.  (He said something along the lines of "Odium has killed at least one Shard that you don't know about", but I don't remember when or where) In addition, Odium may be waiting until Harmony's opposing Intents start to backfire before moving in for the kill.  

 

3.  Paalm's entire purpose is to set herself and everyone else free of Harmony's influence and control. If another shard was controlling her, it would logically follow that she would reject this control as well. Unless that shard was influencing her towards "freedom"...

 

Ruin had quite the silver tongue when faced with those who didn't know what he was.  If it's Odium, he could just as easily be better than Ruin in that regard.  

Edited January 14, 2016 by Landis963

[RyloKen]

Thank you for your role as devil's advocate, something that's appreciated!

 

1. I think that Odium will be kept plenty busy by our protagonists on Roshar, but he could conceivably find time to break away. However, I think his fear of Harmony would still keep him from Scadrial. I
2. n regards to Odium and Autonomy working together, it might not be a friendship exactly, but feasibly a partnership between two individuals who may have been friends before they took up their shards.Also, Autonomy could be under the impression that ultimately Odium will win out, and may have made a deal with Odium that he thinks will keep him safe, or may just be trying to survive the longest.
3. I feel like Paalm would still resent any type of manipulation that didn't lead towards freedom, and that she -- after being the Lord Ruler's for so long -- can probably see through quite a bit of flowery speech and clever manipulations.
4. Finally, either Odium is coarse and hateful and left unable to make friends or he's sly and silver-tongued, so if one of those last two arguments is accurate, I think we'd have to exclude the other one as it is.

 

Thank you again for the critiques!

Edited January 14, 2016 by RyloKen

[Landis963]

Thank you for your role as devil's advocate, something that's appreciated!

 

1. I think that Odium will be kept plenty busy by our protagonists on Roshar, but he could conceivably find time to break away. However, I think his fear of Harmony would still keep him from Scadrial. I
2. n regards to Odium and Autonomy working together, it might not be a friendship exactly, but feasibly a partnership between two individuals who may have been friends before they took up their shards.Also, Autonomy could be under the impression that ultimately Odium will win out, and may have made a deal with Odium that he thinks will keep him safe, or may just be trying to survive the longest.
3. I feel like Paalm would still resent any type of manipulation that didn't lead towards freedom, and that she -- after being the Lord Ruler's for so long -- can probably see through quite a bit of flowery speech and clever manipulations.
4. Finally, either Odium is coarse and hateful and left unable to make friends or he's sly and silver-tongued, so if one of those last two arguments is accurate, I think we'd have to exclude the other one as it is.

 

Thank you again for the critiques!

 

3.  Except that Ruin could and did masquerade as many people's consciences.  Again, if the culprit is manipulating Paalm in any verbal way a la faux!Kelsier and faux!Reen, he's telling her things that she wants to hear, and things that she could mistake for her own conclusions.

4.  There was a distinction in my previous post that might not have made it across - Odium can't charm and manipulate his fellow Shards in the way he could the mortals of a particular Shardworld.  Actually, we may have to tend toward the "coarse and hateful", which doesn't entirely invalidate the thrust of the argument re: Paalm, as we've heard that Odium was driving Shallan's father to madness.  

[RyloKen]

Very true, very true. Good points I will be giving some thought to. However, as you agree, I still think that Autonomy is our man. 

[Moogle]

2.  Odium is terrified of Harmony, so would not be likely to challenge him in person, especially not on Harmony's own world. However, he might send a friend to do the dirty work....

 

Assuming that Odium has friends in the first place.  Admittedly, we don't know the personality of his Shardholder (beyond Hoid's... biased account) but millenia of slowly being corroded into a force of hatred doesn't exactly leave one with the ability to make friends and influence people.  Besides, in the circle of cosmere-aware people who know of Odium, very few of them would count themselves his ally after he murdered 2 Shards on their home turf, and then did repeat performances first on Roshar then on another Shardworld that Brandon hasn't published yet, if he ever will.  (He said something along the lines of "Odium has killed at least one Shard that you don't know about", but I don't remember when or where) In addition, Odium may be waiting until Harmony's opposing Intents start to backfire before moving in for the kill. 

 

Odium would be willing to work with others and probably has:

Q [2:07:35]: Could - would - Odium ever work with another Shard?

A: If he were in charge. This is within the realm of possibility. In fact, that may have happened at various points. (I swear I can hear his sly smile…)

(source)

 

I believe there's another WoB which more explicitly says Odium has worked with others in the past, but finding WoBs when they're not in the database is nigh-impossible.

[Landis963]

I believe there's another WoB which more explicitly says Odium has worked with others in the past, but finding WoBs when they're not in the database is nigh-impossible.

 

Maybe he got help with a warm-up act or two, but once his Shardic bodycount got above 3, I'd be baffled if he could find Shardic allies.  Shardic allies that knew about his rampage, that is.  

[RyloKen]

Maybe he got help with a warm-up act or two, but once his Shardic bodycount got above 3, I'd be baffled if he could find Shardic allies.  Shardic allies that knew about his rampage, that is.  

Unless Autonomy is seeking to make the whole Cosmere autonomous, in this case free of Shardic influence, and so has teamed up with Odium in order to Splinter as many Shards as possible, dispersing their power.

Edited January 15, 2016 by RyloKen

[Landis963]

Unless Autonomy is seeking to make the whole Cosmere autonomous, in this case free of Shardic influence, and so has teamed up with Odium in order to Splinter as many Shards as possible, dispersing their power.

 

And where, exactly, would this hypothetical motivation end?  In this scenario, Autonomy has to know that Odium can and will backstab him the moment it becomes convenient.  

Edited January 15, 2016 by Landis963

[RyloKen]

And where, exactly, would this hypothetical motivation end?  In this scenario, Autonomy has to know that Odium can and will backstab him the moment it becomes convenient.  

I think Autonomy very much knows that and is either planning a backstab himself when working with Odium is no longer feasible OR is okay with it because he's a Shard too, so one less Shard in the Cosmere, that much more Autonomy. I'm not saying that Autonomy is suicidal. Just that maybe he thinks that "freeing" worlds from other Shard's power is worth the risk.

[Landis963]

I think Autonomy very much knows that and is either planning a backstab himself when working with Odium is no longer feasible OR is okay with it because he's a Shard too, so one less Shard in the Cosmere, that much more Autonomy. I'm not saying that Autonomy is suicidal. Just that maybe he thinks that "freeing" worlds from other Shard's power is worth the risk.

 

The counter-backstab is much more plausible than the other thing, because handing the cosmere over to Odium just seems like a bad idea all around.