Fedik

[Oudeis]

Here is my theory. Fedik was the victim of hemalurgic theft by Ruin.

Here's why i think Alendi's mist spirit was Ruin, not Preservation. Preservation is of the white mists, and Ruin is of the black mist which was at the well. In the Chapter 20 epigraph, which I will quote directly if I have to when i get to a computer, Alendi clearly said it was black. Not conclusive, but i believe this to be the case.

Here's why i think Fedik was spiked. Near the start of Chapter 29 the logbook is quoted, and Alendi speaks of Fedik being different since the attack. He is apparently at risk of just walking off a cliff. Sounds like someone with a damaged spiritweb.

Not a solid theory, but possible.

 

EDIT: Typos (this was originally typed on a Nook and I am not touch-screen savvy)

Edited December 20, 2013 by Darnam

[Argent]

This is a pretty small, not even side story, kind of deal. I'll have to wait for the quotes before I can picture everything.

[Cartith]

I like this idea. Although, I'm not sure its possible. If Ruin could spike people then, when he was trapped in his prison, why couldn't he spike people himself once he was free? 

[Oudeis]

They were near Ruin's pool, and the location where his mind was trapped. Perhaps the location mattered? Also, this was before Rashek hid Ruin's body. Maybe accessing the atium would have let him affect the world more directly?

Im about to reread Well of Ascension and Hero of Ages. Im going to watch the Mist Spirit this time. See if it is most active near the lerasium, if you consider the whole city of Luthadel to be 'near', or near Elend, the person with the strongest connection to Preservation. Does it ever touch anything after Elend burns the lerasium?

That would add an interesting dimension to me, if Preservation sacrificed his only connection to the world to save Elend, and no one realized what he gave up.

[bartbug]

If I can get a quote on that, I'm sold. That's really, really cool.

[Oudeis]

Evidence that the Mist Spirit that Alendi saw was black, and therefore might be Ruin, rather than Preservation:

Chapter 20 Epigraph :

"It isn't a shadow.

"This dark thing that follows me, the thing that only I can see - It isn't really a shadow. It's blackish and translucent, but it doesn't have a shadowlike, solid outline. It's insubstantial - wispy and formless. Like it's made out of a dark fog.

"Or mist, perhaps."

So. The white mist is of Preservation, and the white mist creature is of Preservation. The dark mist Vin saw at the Well, i believe we have WoB that is of Ruin. Now we've got a dark mist creature. I put to you that it is Ruin's form.

Now Fedik. Here's Alendi's description of Fedik post stabbing, from near the beginning of Chapter 29.

"I fear for Fedik-he hasnt been quite the same since the creature made of mist attacked him, and i worry that he will wander off a cliffside or slip through one of he many icy rifts in the ground."

Why would a stab wound make someone apt to walk off a cliff? It sounds like confusion or depression. It's only hinted at, but this is consistent with someone who lost mental fortitude, or ripped their spiritweb.

[Shardlet]

Since hemalurgy is fatal to the donor in every case unless certain actions are taken, it seems unlikely that Ruin would have chosen to carefully stab Fedik in order to leave him alive.  Also, what would be the point of leaving him alive.  Doesn't seem to jive very well with Ruin's intent.  Since Fedik did not seem to do anything after he was stabbed to significantly help Ruin, it seems unlikely that Ruin would not have just killed him.  On top of which, Alendi was on board with Ruin's plan already.  Unless Fedik was trying to convince Alendi to do things outside of Ruin's goals (which i don't recall any indication of), there would be no reason for Ruin to kill him.

[Oudeis]

You raise a few good questions, but i dont think you disprove anything. We dont know what Fedik did before or after. Maybe it did serve a purpose. Preservations purpose in ripping the final words of the prophecy wasnt apparent at first. Alendi had spoken of the mist creature and his logbook and implied that people were questioning his sanity. Perhaps appearing to someone, leaving him alive but with obvious evidence that the creature exists, wouldnt just prove him right, it would give him more weight if people question him in the future. Just one example, it could be something you have to be omnipotent to understand.

[Guest Alaxel]

Sorry for the late post, but I don't spend much time in the Mistborn threads.

This sounds like a solid theory and I'm very excited to go reread the WoA and get a feel for these scenes in the greater context of the book.

In regards to Ruin stabbing Fedik in a nonlethal manner, that's fairly easy to explain. Either the attribute Ruin stole was in a nonlethal place to begin with, in which case stealing the trait was a priority to killing Fedik, or Ruin, in that fog/smoke form, lacked the strength to do lethal damage to Fedik and so did the next best thing.

I don't have the books on hand and I doubt its mentioned anyway, but if Fedik was on the verge of getting cold feet and convincing Alendi to abandon his quest, and we assume Alendi would have given up the power and unwittingly freed Ruin, then Ruin would need to stop Fedik by any means necessary. Lacking the strength to outright kill Fedik, Ruin did the next best thing and spiked out Fedik's mental fortitude.

Good catch, Darnam.

[DocHoliday]

This is a very interesting thread, but without my books I feel the need to disagree.<br />I think you've put a neat twist on what is actually kinda mundane.<br /><br />You know...if near-omnipotent, insubstantial, magical ghosts are mundane..<br /><br />..Back to topic. We have to keep in mind that prior to the Deepness, and during certain daylight hours, there is no Mist on Scadrial. The Mist is obviously white. Ghosts are transparent, meaning the Mist would make the outline look white. Now imagine the same translucent outline with no white background. You have an insubstantial outline being touched by wind/dust/dirt, you name it. Any matter touching it, is by default darker than the Mist.

[Guest Alaxel]

The mists themselves form the mist creature, not merely betray its presence. A subtle difference, but an important one.

[Oudeis]

Ghosts are transparent, meaning the Mist would make the outline look white.

Do you mind if I ask, what is you source that "ghosts are transparent"? Apart from Kelsier, I cannot think of another person who dies, yet has any further influence on the world, and I can't recall a time he had any noticeable impact beyond whispering to Spook...

 

 

I don't have the books on hand and I doubt its mentioned anyway, but if Fedik was on the verge of getting cold feet and convincing Alendi to abandon his quest, and we assume Alendi would have given up the power and unwittingly freed Ruin, then Ruin would need to stop Fedik by any means necessary. Lacking the strength to outright kill Fedik, Ruin did the next best thing and spiked out Fedik's mental fortitude.

Good catch, Darnam.

 

Little is said of Fedik. We know that he was fascinated with Ruin's Shardpool and wanted to take a sample, but I believe he'd safely moved on by the time he was stabbed, so unless he took a sample no one knew about, there wasn't really a "defend my shardpool" reason for Ruin to stab him. We do know that at Rashek's urging, people were starting to think Alendi was insane, and he was even doubting his own grasp of reality. As he himself says in the logbook, Fedik getting stabbed, but surviving and confirming that it was the being of dark fog, went a long way towards proving to people that Alendi wasn't nuts.

[DocHoliday]

The mists themselves form the mist creature, not merely betray its presence. A subtle difference, but an important one.

 

 You make an excellent point here. It IS a subtle difference, but it's a descriptive one; open to interpretation. My impression was that Leras looked kinda like a clear trash bag filling with fog from dry ice. The same material is on both sides of the bag, but air currents/flows/whatever clearly depict a "form" in the Mist.

Do you mind if I ask, what is you source that "ghosts are transparent"? Apart from Kelsier, I cannot think of another person who dies, yet has any further influence on the world, and I can't recall a time he had any noticeable impact beyond whispering to Spook...

You prefer Mario ghosts with a white sheet over their head? Leras clearly didn't have any physical description beyond his outline until he died. That said, how do you see a shape the Mist; and KNOW it's a person, unless it's the outline/figure of a human ?

[name_here]

It's not a descriptive difference, the mists are the physical body of Leras and the mist creature forms from them. It could not be encountered in a form not made up of the mists.

 

The theory is definitely plausible; I had assumed he got stabbed for the same reason Elend got stabbed, but you're right that the description doesn't fit. Though that begs the question of why Ruin doesn't pull the same trick again. I guess it might have been energy-intensive and he wound up thoroughly outmaneuvered that time, so he didn't want to expend the effort of trying that route again unless needed..

[Oudeis]

It's not a descriptive difference, the mists are the physical body of Leras and the mist creature forms from them. It could not be encountered in a form not made up of the mists.

The theory is definitely plausible; I had assumed he got stabbed for the same reason Elend got stabbed, but you're right that the description doesn't fit. Though that begs the question of why Ruin doesn't pull the same trick again. I guess it might have been energy-intensive and he wound up thoroughly outmaneuvered that time, so he didn't want to expend the effort of trying that route again unless needed..

I don't think he could. I think that for Ruin to affect the real world, he needed the atium. In Alendi's day, it was being drained out of him via the Pits, but he still knew where it was. By the time of the novels, Rashek had hidden the atium, so Ruin didn't have access to his Mist form. Just speculation.

[Vortaan]

I don't think he could. I think that for Ruin to affect the real world, he needed the atium. In Alendi's day, it was being drained out of him via the Pits, but he still knew where it was. By the time of the novels, Rashek had hidden the atium, so Ruin didn't have access to his Mist form. Just speculation.

 

Not buying this. The Well was located nowhere near the Pits, and Ruin was trapped. If he could access his Physical aspect even while trapped, his power would likely have been enough to overwhelm Preservation's trap. Another point for consideration is that no one else sees the mist spirit Alendi sees. Considering he's in the middle of a large expedition, it seems unreasonable that he's not surrounded by others during the day. Is it possible he only ever saw the mist spirit at night? Far from civilization, without reflecting lights, could that make it appear black?

[Oudeis]

Not buying this. The Well was located nowhere near the Pits, and Ruin was trapped. If he could access his Physical aspect even while trapped, his power would likely have been enough to overwhelm Preservation's trap. Another point for consideration is that no one else sees the mist spirit Alendi sees. Considering he's in the middle of a large expedition, it seems unreasonable that he's not surrounded by others during the day. Is it possible he only ever saw the mist spirit at night? Far from civilization, without reflecting lights, could that make it appear black?

 

1. I think the Well of Ascension WAS located near the Pits. We know for sure that it was located near Ruin's Shardpool, and we know the Pits are currently located above Ruin's Shardpool. It's admittedly far from WoB that they were right there, but unless you know something I don't, you can't possibly claim with any certainty that it "was located nowhere near the Pits".

 

((From the text, "The lake that Fedik discovered is below us now - I can see it from the ledge. It looks even more eerie from up here, with its glassy - almost metallic - sheen. I almost wish had let him take a sample of its waters." There's a WoB floating around that this is Ruin's Shardpool, and another one saying that Ruin's Shardpool is at the bottom of the Pits post-First Ascension. When I'm back at my home computer I will find them, though upvote to anyone who has them to hand))

 

2. "His power would likely have been enough to overwhelm Preservation's trap" It was never a question of power. Both Ruin's and Preservation's powers were, in the main, free. Preservation sacrificed the majority of his mind, in order to trap the majority of Ruin's mind. The amount of actual power lost to Ruin by the atium was always negligible compared to his total amount of power; the point of it was to balance the amount Preservation placed into humankind. When the trap was formed, Ruin was significantly stronger than Preservation; if sheer power could have won the day for him, Scadrial would have fallen 2000 years earlier. Ruin's mindless power was held in check by Preservation's mindless power, and vice versa. The atium just gave him an extra boost to do just a little bit more than he could without it; my suspicion is, this "little bit more" meant to create a mist spirit to directly interact with non-crazy, non-hemalurgic humans on their scale.

 

3. Vin predominantly saw Preservation's shadow of self at night, and distinctly saw it as white. And yes, I agree that he's surrounded by people, but not necessarily within feet of him at all times. There might be an honor guard at a respectful distance, courtiers and sycophants ready to obey his whims. But Vin senses the spirit first with bronzepulses, then tries to see it with her own eyes. It's only visible when she gets within a few feet of it, and knows right where to look, and it disperses immediately when it wishes to.

 

Please consider the following scenario. Alendi, who himself doesn't understand his own abilities as a Seeker, suddenly senses "that thing" again. Guys, come quickly! It's over there, that thing I keep seeing that you don't believe! This way, try to keep up! Over ... there! Yes! There! I see it! No, no there. No, to the left. No, don't bring torches! That reduces visibility in the Deepness! Look, wait, it's right... oh, it's gone now.

 

Vin's Mist Spirit, the one of Preservation, was formed of the mists themselves. If being far from civilization could make it turn black, then normal fog seen in the woods far from civilizatin would look black. A far more likely scenario is that this being is related to the black smoke we see at the Well which is confirmed to be of Ruin.

[Oudeis]

All of which only says that Ruin's shardpool is far away by the time of the books. We know that Rashek moved the Well of Ascension when he Ascended. It was closer in the past.

[Vortaan]

I don't know Darnam. Ruin as another mist spirit just really falls flat for me, mainly because of all the other times it would have been useful for him to physically interact with something that he doesn't. He has full consciousness, unlike Leras, and never sacrificed any power... so why doesn't he spike a member of the crew himself, rather than go through Inquisitors? Or maybe menace Elend a bit so that he never trusts anything Leras tries to tell him? Heck, I'd even consider killing Sazed if I were him and able to, since he's probably the last living Feruchemist AND the one who figured out that Ruin was changing the prophecies.

[Oudeis]

I don't know Darnam. Ruin as another mist spirit just really falls flat for me, mainly because of all the other times it would have been useful for him to physically interact with something that he doesn't. He has full consciousness, unlike Leras, and never sacrificed any power... so why doesn't he spike a member of the crew himself, rather than go through Inquisitors? Or maybe menace Elend a bit so that he never trusts anything Leras tries to tell him? Heck, I'd even consider killing Sazed if I were him and able to, since he's probably the last living Feruchemist AND the one who figured out that Ruin was changing the prophecies.

 

A few responses:

First, as I've suggested, I don't think he can manifest a mist-spirit by the time of the books; I think he requires the atium to do so. And you're technically correct, he never did sacrifice any power; it was siphoned off of him by Preservation via the Pits in the form of atium. In Alendi's day, the atium was being siphoned off but Ruin still knew where it was, and he was able to manifest his shadow of self nearby; Rashek changed that by hiding the atium, meaning Ruin could no longer project his spirit of black smoke.

 

There are a ton of times I wonder, "Why didn't you use Inquisitors?" Ruin was able to hunt down Goradel in the midst of the ash and slay him with Marsh; why not do the same when Sazed is riding TenSoon-the-horse across the ash to the Homeland? Why not Breeze? The only people who could possibly fight off an Inquisitor are Elend and Vin, and Ruin has over a dozen of the creatures. Why is anyone outside of their presence ever safe?

 

The only explanation in-book is, "Ruin is convinced they are doing his work," i.e. he knows that they're all looking for the atium. We, the readers, know that they oppose him and want him dead, and we suspect they have a chance and that in fact they will win, but it's expressly stated in the book that Ruin never believed that. He is literally a god, and they are a petty group of humans. They were looking for the atium, quite effectively, and were sure to find it soon, and then he could simply take it from them. Killing them, foiling their plans, trying to confuse them or throw them off track... this would all require as a first step that Ruin think to himself, "They could potentially pose some sort of threat to me," and he literally could not wrap his mind around the concept.

 

Personally, it's not my favorite part of the books. I've never liked the "oh if we kill him he'll just be a martyr" excuse for letting the hero live when, by rights, he should be dead. But, it is a reason expressly stated in-text (even though it's something Ruin tells Vin and is therefore suspect, it is supported by evidence of his actions, and their direct consequences bringing Vin closer to where they all suspected the atium was.)

 

TL;DR version: Personally I agree that there's no reason Ruin shouldn't have killed Sazed any of a dozen times. He could have used an Inquisitor as easily as the Mist Spirit. The text gives us a reason that I feel is a cop-out, but the basic point is, the Mist Spirit wouldn't have done the job any better than an Inquisitor, and Ruin used neither.

 

Finally... you have a fair point, that I can't really prove my point, and if the idea simply falls flat for you, that's something I can't argue against. My plan is to sit here quietly until we get proof one way or another (which I hope we might even get this upcoming year, since the book is tentatively titled Shadows of Self, and the First Generation refers to the mist spirit as Preservation's "shadow of self," so maybe we will learn more about mist spirits) and then tell y'all that I told you so.

[dyring]

Darnam, a problem for your theory.

 

Ruin is unable to see well in areas with much metal. This is why the lord ruler had the caverns there.

 

If the atium was at the well of ascension pre-Rashek, Ruin would almost certainly not have been able to see what was going on there.

Besides. we know the well of ascension used to be in the terris mountains. (Or perhaps, the terris mountains used to be at the well of ascension, suppose thats more likely;).

 

Cant really see why he´d move the caves with the pits and the kandra home away from the well either. Easier to control if it had been closer.

[Oudeis]

Darnam, a problem for your theory.

Ruin is unable to see well in areas with much metal. This is why the lord ruler had the caverns there.

If the atium was at the well of ascension pre-Rashek, Ruin would almost certainly not have been able to see what was going on there.

Besides. we know the well of ascension used to be in the terris mountains. (Or perhaps, the terris mountains used to be at the well of ascension, suppose thats more likely;).

Cant really see why he´d move the caves with the pits and the kandra home away from the well either. Easier to control if it had been closer.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, and I'm not certain you understood what I was saying. My apologies in advance if I'm misrepresenting your position as I attempt to reply, and I stand ready to retract it upon correction.

The atium was never at the Well of Ascension, I believe it was always at Ruin's Shardpool, which we know was the metal lake near the Well in Alendi's day, and we know shares a location with the Pits of Hathsin by the time of the books. The annotations for the books are clear; Rashek moved the Well from the Mountains to the place that became Luthadel, and dragged magnetic north with it.

I see what you're saying, about how metal blinds Ruin. However, the atium is metal. Clearly Ruin knew of a way to access its power, even if he couldn't see it, if he knew where it was. I don't know what process Ruin could have used. If Human had reached the Trust and found it full of atium, what, specifically, would he have done? What step was required to allow Ruin access? Until we know the answer to that question, we may not be able to address your concerns.

[dyring]

I got the impression that the well was stationary at the pole, and that he moved the terris mountains. It might matter.

 

The pits arent that far away from luthadel, how many days of travel did Alendi have before he arrived at the well after seeing the lake? It might have been the same place if so.

 

But I don´t have my book, so cant check that

 

 

Then, if the shardpool was indeed really close, then I got another comment

"The atium was never at the Well of Ascension, I believe it was always at Ruin´s Shardpool, wich we know was the metal lake near the the well in Alendi´s day, and we know shares a location with the Pits of Hathsin by the time of the books."

 

Depends on what you mean by near. If the shardpool was really close, then the atium was too. It was Leras who created the Atium geod-thing to drain of Atium, not Rashek. so some atium must have been there already, althou with noone who can use it I guess.

[Shardlet]

Darnam is correct that Rashek moved the well from the Terris mountains.  The WoB on this is pretty established.  From the notes on the original ending of WoA:

 

 This did require me to change the location of the Well, and reorganize in my mind the setting of the book somewhat. Placing the Well beneath Luthadel required the Lord Ruler to re-arrange the landscape of the world during his moment of power. But since he was doing many things like this already, I felt it was in line. It does mean that this world has a very different magnetic North than it does Geographic North, which is viable geologically if not intuitively.

(This is the only way I could explain moving the Well and locating the world near the pole while maintaining a normal day-night cycle. With how odd the setting already was in many ways, I didn’t want to add month-long cycles of day and night to the mix.)

 

However, I am not convinced of the canonicity of the metal lake.  There are a great many things in the original ending that are not canon.  I am rather uncertain as to how 'correct' the lake is after the changes Brandon made.

[WeiryWriter]

Darnam is correct that Rashek moved the well from the Terris mountains.  The WoB on this is pretty established.  From the notes on the original ending of WoA:

 

 

However, I am not convinced of the canonicity of the metal lake.  There are a great many things in the original ending that are not canon.  I am rather uncertain as to how 'correct' the lake is after the changes Brandon made.

 

Eh, I would disagree, but this is a tricky discussion.  Epigraph 12 of HoA says:

 

Rashek moved the Well of Ascension, obviously.

 

It was very clever of him—perhaps the cleverest thing he did. He knew that the power would one day return to the Well, for power such as this—the fundamental power by which the world itself was formed—does not simply run out. It can be used, and therefore diffused, but it will always be renewed.

 

So, knowing that rumors and tales would persist, Rashek changed the very landscape of the world. He put mountains in what became the North, and named that location Terris. Then he flattened his true homeland, and built his capital there.

He constructed his palace around that room at its heart, the room where he would meditate, the room that was a replica of his old hovel in Terris. A refuge created during the last moments before his power ran out.

 

It says that Rashek moved the Well but that isn't really what it goes on to describe.  Rashek flattened the original Terris, where the Well was located, and then raised a "new" Terris to the north.  So it was the Mountains, not the Well that actually "moved".

 

Edit: About the canonicity of the metal lake being Ruin's Shardpool:

 

VegasDev (16 October 2008)

The other lake in Alendi's bumps?

Brandon Sanderson (17 October 2008)

 

A manifestation of Ruin's gathered consciousness, much like the dark mists in book two. The lake was still around in Vin's era, but had been moved under ground. (Note that the Well is a very similar manifestation. You've also seen one other manifestation like this....)

 

(source)

 

I'd say it is canon.

Edited December 27, 2013 by WeiryWriter