lonelymagician

possible to un-shatter a shard?

38 posts in this topic

So I just finished HoA again today, and there were a few things that stuck out to me:

 

1. The mist that seeps out of vin/sazed when they're holding preservation's power (or ruin's) is really really similar to how stormlight leaks from surgebinders. I know there was a Q&A I read recently where stormlight (highstorms?) was similar to the mist from mistborn, and that we didn't have a name for it. Just thought that was interesting.

 

2. When sazed picked up Ruin and Preservation, he essentially created a "new" shard because he was of a single mind how to use the opposing powers. They function as one shard now, and WoB said that if Sazed were to die, he would drop harmony, not ruin and preservation (though they could be separated again). This made me think that Adonalsium could be put back together eventually. Extrapolating in the other direction, would it be possible for Honor (or other splintered shards) to be rebuilt? Obviously, there's a lot about splintering that we don't know, but it seems at least like a plausible idea. What do you guys think?

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Mason Wheeler

You've said that Splintering a shard is essentially the same thing as the shattering of Adonalsium, repeated on a smaller scale.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Mason Wheeler

And a while ago, someone asked you if Splintering was permanent or reversible, and you said that it can be reversed.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

source 69

So it's possible, but how you would go about doing it is another question entirely.

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very cool source. Considering how much time I've spent reading those Q&A's, I'm surprised I hadn't seen this one. 

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Direct link for Gloom's quote

 

2. When sazed picked up Ruin and Preservation, he essentially created a "new" shard because he was of a single mind how to use the opposing powers. They function as one shard now, and WoB said that if Sazed were to die, he would drop harmony, not ruin and preservation (though they could be separated again). This made me think that Adonalsium could be put back together eventually. Extrapolating in the other direction, would it be possible for Honor (or other splintered shards) to be rebuilt? Obviously, there's a lot about splintering that we don't know, but it seems at least like a plausible idea. What do you guys think?

 

This is really tricky since Harmony can be thought of as two shards or one shard so it can't really be definitively said to be one or the other.  (i.e. it acts as one shard in terms of holder-death and splintering, but it is still two shards stuck together as evidenced by the two kinds of mists in the Alloy era among other things... sorry this is a pet peeve of mine)

 

On the rebuilding of Adonalsium, I think the nature of Harmony (two shards melded together rather than one homogenous entity) indicates that Adonalsium cannot be remade as it was.  I actually have a theory about this which is linked in my signature.

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In light of Hoid's comments in Gibletish, I suspect you could assemble a Splintered Shard into a cohesive unit, but not necessarily the same one you started out with. As for how, I think you'd have to do it like the creation of Harmony. Someone who has a connection to all of the splinters would need to acquire them simultaneously. Depending on the exact mechanics, it might be possible for anyone who uses the magic system associated with the original Shard to do it. It's also possible that someone who already holds one splinter would be able to gather the others just fine; the only splinters associated with people we know of are Divine Breaths, and it doesn't seem that there are any loose splinters of Endowment.

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I don't think you would need every last piece of the Shard. Just enough of it. Tanavast was just fine even though a chunk of his power was invested in Roshar, Cultivation is also alive after having invested a large portion of her power into Roshar. There is bound to be a threshold at which enough power is accumulated to give the collector control over all the remaining untapped power of the Shard. A point which it has enough energy to remain cohesive.

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If more than half of Endowment is in Returned, would getting the Divine Breath of all Return make you Endowment? I doubt it.

 

Plus, sometimes you cannot get investiture, since investiture is given (not collected), or plain locked. You can't collect the Divine Breaths. You can't collect the seon's investiture. You can't even use the stormlight from Plates. So a different process would be involved, not just "collecting". I would say maybe like intended simultaneous actions from all splinters, which would of course result in the "death" of the splinters. This also would mean that if most of the power is locked in invested objects (not splinters), then it's impossible to put the shard back together.

 

However, the answer to putting a shard back together is easy: call the borg. They know how to do it. Resistance is futile.

Edited by marianmi
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Well, if the splinters or Investiture are locked up somehow, you'd have to break them loose from the current Invested objects or people before gathering them, much like how forming Harmony required Ruin and Preservation becoming uncontrolled. I suppose that at some threshold point prior to gathering up all the splinters the Shard's Investiture would recognize you as the Shard and revert to your control when removed from whatever is using it. However, it's also possible that each splinter is associated with a specific segment of the total power pool, and you'd only access the portions associated with the ones you actually have, in which case you'd need all of them to control the full power of the original.

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I believe, that having a large enough portion of the Shads power would cause the Shard to reconstitute.

 

As long as Endowment is alive and in control of her Shard, she would maintain control. She is the Shard. A Shard that has been splintered is a different ballgame all together. Lets not mix apples and oranges here. Basically what I'm saying here is that Honor could be reconstituted with a new holder without sucking up every last shred of Honor to do it. You wouldn't have to absorb all the bonding spren, and in fact, that might not even be possible since that power is invested into the planet. What I believe you'd have to do is capture the loose investiture.

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I believe, that having a large enough portion of the Shads power would cause the Shard to reconstitute.

 

 

My question stands: If more than half of Endowment is in Returned, would getting the Divine Breath of all Return make you Endowment?

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Possible? Yes, unlikely I'd suspect based on that objects can view themselves in Emperor's Soul. The longer they go separated and attached to human identities that view them as individual sources of power the harder its going to become to forge them into a whole. Given that they haen't compelled their human counterparts to do just that, in fact quite the opposite that a lot of them just plain don't get along, I'd suspect that it'll never happen.

Edited by Darkarma
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My question stands: If more than half of Endowment is in Returned, would getting the Divine Breath of all Return make you Endowment?

 

I don't think so.  As per WOB, Endowment is the Shard and the Shardholder all at once.  Endowment can distribute her power freely according to the intent of her Shard, and even if you could gather all of the endowed power in one place, it wouldn't let you replace her.  I think the most you could become is a Sliver.

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I'd just like to point out that we don't actually know the gender of Endowment's Shardholder.  (For those people who might get confused by the people referring to Endowment as "her" -- I personally think he is a guy...)

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Yeah, I've always thought Endowment = Austre. Who is male.

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My question stands: If more than half of Endowment is in Returned, would getting the Divine Breath of all Return make you Endowment?

 

I thought I answered your question. I will try to be extremely clear this time. If the Shardholder is alive, you can't be the Shardholder no matter how much of the Shards power you accumulate because the Shard is being held.

 

Now, your question did lead me to another question.

 

Harmony can't be separated into Ruin and Preservation unless Sazed is killed and the Shard Splintered. This is WoB. So my question is this. When Adonalsium was shattered, did it shatter into the smallest pieces possible that could retain the function of a Shard? What I mean is, say three different people tried to reconstruct Honor at the same time. Would it be possible to create Minor Shard of Protection, a Minor Shard of Nobility, and a Minor Shard of Oaths?

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I think making too much of a distinction between Shards and splinters may be a mistake. If splintering is similar to the Shattering, then it seems unlikely there's a fundamental difference between them beyond degree. If someone gathered enough splinters of Honor, it would be appropriate to start calling the result a Shard, but if they don't have all of them then they haven't fully reconstituted Honor.

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What I mean is, say three different people tried to reconstruct Honor at the same time. Would it be possible to create Minor Shard of Protection, a Minor Shard of Nobility, and a Minor Shard of Oaths?

 

This is exactly my question after thinking some more on this last night. Is each shard composed of other virtues that make it that? Protection, for example, could fit into more than just honor. I'm guessing that the reason Adonalsium broke into 16 pieces has to do with how important the number 16 is in the Cosmere. 

 

 

 

In light of Hoid's comments in Gibletish, I suspect you could assemble a Splintered Shard into a cohesive unit, but not necessarily the same one you started out with

As for this, I think Hoid was wondering whether you could take all the pieces of something, and turn it into something else. Possibly speculating on Odium's intent? I wonder how the pieces of a splintered shard view themselves, and how much of the shard's intent they carry. Maybe Odium wants to assemble something out of just the pieces he likes.

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Harmony can't be separated into Ruin and Preservation unless Sazed is killed and the Shard Splintered. This is WoB.

 

Um... I don't ever remember reading something that said that.   Brandon has said that Harmony cannot be separated into Ruin and Preservation by splintering, it would break into smaller pieces.  We do not know the process of how "unmingling" occurs.  It is entirely possible that Sazed could do it without dying.  If there is WoB of what you say, I would like to see it.

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Relevant quotes from Brandon: 

 

 

QUESTION
Were Ruin and Preservation two shards or one?
BRANDON SANDERSON
They were two shards. Harmony is considered a shard, although it’s really two, in the same way that a king of two countries would still be considered a king.
MASON WHEELER

And shard holders tend to take the name of the shard they hold. So you've got Sazed, who goes by "Harmony" now, after taking up Ruin and Preservation. That makes me wonder, does he hold two shards... or one?

BRANDON SANDERSON

You could really answer that either way. The distinction is a really subjective one, and you could say that he's holding both shards, or that he holds one single Harmony.

THANATOS17901 ()

Thanks so much for all your writing, Way of Kings is the best book I've read in the last decade.

If Sazed were to die, would he drop the shards Ruin and Preservation, or would he drop the shard Harmony?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.)

 

I don't recall WoB specifying how to "unmingle" the two pieces, like Weiry said.

 

Edit: added last line.

Edited by lonelymagician
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Relevant quotes from Brandon: 

 

I don't recall WoB specifying how to "unmingle" the two pieces, like Weiry said.

 

Edit: added last line.

 

There isn't one, which is why I said we don't know anything about that process.

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My bad, now back to my segue!

 

Minor Shards! Thoughts?

 

Also, if someone were to try to put the Shards on Sel back together, would they end up with Dominion and Devotion? Or would they have two completely different Shards?

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Also, if someone were to try to put the Shards on Sel back together, would they end up with Dominion and Devotion? Or would they have two completely different Shards?

 

Maybe if they put them both together they'd get the shard Dominatrix...

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PUCK

"How is a Splinter different from a Sliver?

BRANDON SANDERSON

"Let me see... You have met splinters in ElantrisWarbreaker, and in Way of Kings. You have not met them in Mistborn."

PUCK

"I feel like we know that. So, qualitatively, what's the difference?"

BRANDON SANDERSON

"Qualitatively, they're reverses of one another. A Sliver is a human intelligence who has held the power and released it. A Splinter has never been human."

PUCK

"But it derives from a Shard's power."

BRANDON SANDERSON

"Yes. That's not it completely, but there's at least something to think about."

 

There are some other splinter WoB's that really don't help point out what splinters could possibly be, but we do have a couple that point out at least some splinters we have seen.

 

aons are splinters of aona

shardblades or shardplate are at least related to this whole idea as well. 

there are splinter in TWoK, Warbreaker, and Elantris, but not in Mistborn. 

Spren seem to be at least somewhat related to this idea. 

 

I like the idea of Minor Shards for sure, but there's not a lot of info about what they are/could be/are capable of.

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Minor shards would need both human intellligence + shard power.

Instead of that, we have splinters, which is shard power that achieved intelligence.

 

My theory is that, with less power, you have less intent. E.g. shard Honour cannot be w/o Tanavast, since it's driven by its intent so much it's basically dumb. On the other hand, honorspren are not driven by honour as much, so they can be more intelligent.

 

Note also that splinters are attracted by attributes that align to the shard's intent, as opposed to shards which are all intent, not attracted by anything. 

 

PS: you can argue that returned are minor shards, but then again it's not a human that has Divine Breath, but a creation of Endowment from a dead person.

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No one was trying to argue that Minor Shards existed, only that it is possible they could exist. If Honor is the embodiment of Oaths, Nobility, and Protection, then why couldn't each of those attributes create a Shard with the equivalent of one third of the original power of the Shard Honor. Each Minor Shard would have a holder, so intelligence would be irrelevant. If you had collected enough of one attribute it would influence the holder of the Minor Shard in a similar manner to how a full Shard of Adonalsium does, but maybe to a lesser degree.

 

Now, suppose that Odium was shattered, and you took up the investiture for hatred and protection. What would you even call that Shard?

 

It would be cool to know what attributes were attributed to different Shards we know of so we could mix and match and see if we can't put Humpty Dumpty back together again in new and unusual ways.

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