NEW INFO: Renarin's Spren

[marianmi]

Kaladin trains spear (darkeyes), Renarin has to learn sword (lighteyes).

 

Renarin will not learn spear, Kaladin will not teach sword.

 

Conclusion: Kaladin will not train Renarin.

 

EDIT: at least not in weapons...

Edited November 6, 2013 by marianmi

[Gloom]

There is more to training for war than weapons practice. If Renarin ever wants to lead his spears, he has to know the tactics and formations of his spearmen and how they should be deployed. I'm sure Renarin has this knowledge on a conceptual level already. Renarin needs to learn leadership, logistics, tactics, and strategy. He needs to know when to send his men in and when to order them to withdraw. He needs to have experience with his officers and to be able to evaluate them. I believe Kaladin will give him practical experience.

[Guest Alaxel]

So a few of you have been playing with the idea of character development. Everything from who will turn antihero to who will become new BFF's.

Well, I would like to see Renarin training in his fancy new Shsrdplate, having a great time when, all of a sudden, what's this? Assasin in White? In the Warcamps?! Renarin rushes to find Shallan, whom he has been developing feels for, and barges in just in time to see Szeth finishing up the slaughtering of a bunch of Bridge Four and other high-ranking Kholin officers on his way to find Dalinar. Then a whole bunch of awesome, intense things happen at once. Shallan surprises everyone by summoning a Shardblade. Then she positively shocks everyone, including Szeth, by tossing it to Renarin, who then proceeds to cut off Szeth's legsouls. Or something.

I apologize. I am over tired and over boozed and all of a sudden had the fantastic idea of Shallan and Renarin teaming up in such an unlikely way but ultimately stopping Szeth. I am also partially fishing for upvotes from Feather. Which, let's face it Feather, coming up with Shallan giving Renarin her Shardblade to enable him to save the day...you pretty much owe me an upvote lol.

...also, I sometimes wish my computer had a breathalyzer and would deny me access to the internet after a certain BAC.

[Mailliw73]

Even if Feather, for some strange reason, decides that wasn't worth an upvote, you got mine . I kinda want Shallan to go all intense mode on Szeth first though and Renarin comes just in time to save her soul. Before Kaladin goes all Windrunner spearman fury on him of course.

[marianmi]

I would like to change my prediction for Renarin, to:

 

STONEWARDEN

 

With a new theory:

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/4530-rosharan-sybology/#entry72496

[The Count]

So a few of you have been playing with the idea of character development. Everything from who will turn antihero to who will become new BFF's.

Well, I would like to see Renarin training in his fancy new Shsrdplate, having a great time when, all of a sudden, what's this? Assasin in White? In the Warcamps?! Renarin rushes to find Shallan, whom he has been developing feels for, and barges in just in time to see Szeth finishing up the slaughtering of a bunch of Bridge Four and other high-ranking Kholin officers on his way to find Dalinar. Then a whole bunch of awesome, intense things happen at once. Shallan surprises everyone by summoning a Shardblade. Then she positively shocks everyone, including Szeth, by tossing it to Renarin, who then proceeds to cut off Szeth's legsouls. Or something.

 

Or, how about Szeth does not realise that Dalinar has given his shardplate to Renarin and kills Renarin thinking him to be Dalinar in plate.

 

Ouch!

 

As for the Bromance...

 

There are interesting parallells between Renarin and Adolin's Relationship as brothers and Kaladin and Tien's relationship. Both have a confident and capable older brother with a more timid / weaker younger brother. 

 

I find it unlikely that Renarin will die since it will be almost like Tien's story all over again. Although Renarin dieing and Adolin going darkside in rage / dispair would set up an excellent contrast with Kaladins development following the death of his brother. I think this would work very well narratively.

 

I think that friction between Kaladin and Adolin in WoR is inevitable. Adolin still has some notions about darkeyes place (in a kind of casual elitist kind of way - i.e. not really deliberate but a cutural inertia) and Kaladin still gets uppity when any Lighteyes order him around. Maybe they will end up best buds eventually, but for now, I doubt it.

 

Kaladin and Renarin, I think, may well get on well as I think Renarin will remind Kaladin of Tien and he will fell that protective urge as always. Maybe this could even fuel some slight jealousy in Adolin and exacerbate the friction between him and Kaladin...

 

We shall see. Either way, if Kaladin and all the Kholins all get on and are best buds from day one then it will all be a bit prosaic IMO.

Edited November 6, 2013 by MadRand

[dionysus]

I guess we are using antihero by its strict definition and not the Hollywood cliche version which is a guy with superficially bad traits but a heart of gold.

 

In terms of character growth, Adolin is up there with Dalinar and Kaladin in Way of Kings. Moreover, it is all in the right direction. By that I mean he is becoming more honorable and more restrained in his passions. He is also learning to be a leader. I find it unlikely for him to end up an antihero given his current trajectory. But then again we have a lot more books to go and the situations for all these characters will change multiple times I am sure.

 

I partially share the sentiments of Gloom when it comes to Renarin. Going by just what is in WoK, Renarin isn't a central character. Putting on my literary analysis hat, the central purpose of Renarin in the story is to aggrandize Dalinar and Adolin and show certain positive character traits in the same. Renarin represents what the Alethi culture considers weak, and a central theme of the character growth of Adolin and Dalinar is the struggle to discard some of the negative aspects of Alethi culture. So by being protective and caring towards Renarin they are showing the reader that they have inherent goodness above and even in opposition to the culture they were raised in. The final gift of the plate to Renarin is almost a perfect symbol for Dalinar's growth. In this act, he is symbolic discarding what Alethi culture holds as the most valuable thing in the world, and giving this "valuable" thing to what Alethi culture says is worthless. (The symbolism and meaning is almost identical for the blade trade for the bridgemen.) He plays a few other minor roles in the story, but going just by the WoK I feel I have summed up the main reason the character Renarin exists.

[Natans]

Or, how about Szeth does not realise that Dalinar has given his shardplate to Renarin and kills Renarin thinking him to be Dalinar in plate.

 

Ouch!

 

 

That would be serius wicked I like it =)

[Kurkistan]

Or, how about Szeth does not realise that Dalinar has given his shardplate to Renarin and kills Renarin thinking him to be Dalinar in plate.

Ouch!

That would be serius wicked I like it =)

 

Rand, Natans, HIDE! FEATHER IS COMING FOR YOU!

Edited November 6, 2013 by Kurkistan

[The Count]

Rand, Natans, HIDE! FEATHER IS COMING FOR YOU!

 

So be it...

 

Little does Feather know that I have managed to bond myself to a cakespren (on account of how much of it I eat)

 

My manipulaion of the buttercream and sponge surges will allow me to surely prevail!

 

...Or at least have a fantastic last meal

[Natans]

Rand, Natans, HIDE! FEATHER IS COMING FOR YOU!

 

o.O

 

Wicked?! I mean very bad I would hate that something like this ocurred.

 

*Point do Rand* The fault is all his =)

Edited November 6, 2013 by Natans

[FeatherWriter]

Okay, I will officially say that I have probably lost my ability to accurately respond to this thread, because I simply can't keep up! However, "Too Many People Talking To Me About Renarin" is basically the exact opposite of a problem. So, in honor of the fact that I'm wearing a Soulcaster, and I'm much too stubborn to give up now, let's do this:
 

LOL. A little excessive but nice  =)

 
In case you haven't already noticed, "excessive" is a bit of an understatement in regards to my feelings on Renarin.
 

Okay, it seems I may have ruffled a few feathers earlier, so I'll be a little more serious. 
 
I believe that there are three major factors that will play a part in Renarins development.
 
Kaladin, Shardplate, and a bonding spren.
 
Lets say Renarin gets his Plate. So he has his Plate and he seeks additional training in arms since he hasn't really had an opportunity to really practice the craft of war. It seems to me that since Kaladin has just set up a massive training program and since Renarin will be associating with Kaladin, he will do some of his training under Kaladins tutelage. Now, at the same time as Kaladin starts to influence how Renarin thinks of the glorious art of warfare, Renarin will have attracted a spren.
 
I believe that Renarin will become competent in the arts of war, but will set them aside due to Kaladins influence, and the influence of his spren and instead become a master at creating fabrials and learning the secrets hidden in his Shardplate. I believe that Renarin is destined to become a Bondsmith and become the head of that Order.

There is more to training for war than weapons practice. If Renarin ever wants to lead his spears, he has to know the tactics and formations of his spearmen and how they should be deployed. I'm sure Renarin has this knowledge on a conceptual level already. Renarin needs to learn leadership, logistics, tactics, and strategy. He needs to know when to send his men in and when to order them to withdraw. He needs to have experience with his officers and to be able to evaluate them. I believe Kaladin will give him practical experience.

 
"Ruffled feathers." Har har.
 
You are slightly forgiven for your earlier indescretion because of your artifabrian!Renarin headcanon (which I've been pushing for YEARS) but you are still on the major watchlist because what is all of this Kalarin doing in here all of a sudden? 
 
*squints at screen*
 
Gloom, have you been talking to Kogi? 
 

So a few of you have been playing with the idea of character development. Everything from who will turn antihero to who will become new BFF's.

Well, I would like to see Renarin training in his fancy new Shardplate, having a great time when, all of a sudden, what's this? Assasin in White? In the Warcamps?! Renarin rushes to find Shallan, whom he has been developing feels for, and barges in just in time to see Szeth finishing up the slaughtering of a bunch of Bridge Four and other high-ranking Kholin officers on his way to find Dalinar. Then a whole bunch of awesome, intense things happen at once. Shallan surprises everyone by summoning a Shardblade. Then she positively shocks everyone, including Szeth, by tossing it to Renarin, who then proceeds to cut off Szeth's legsouls. Or something.

I apologize. I am over tired and over boozed and all of a sudden had the fantastic idea of Shallan and Renarin teaming up in such an unlikely way but ultimately stopping Szeth. I am also partially fishing for upvotes from Feather. Which, let's face it Feather, coming up with Shallan giving Renarin her Shardblade to enable him to save the day...you pretty much owe me an upvote lol.

...also, I sometimes wish my computer had a breathalyzer and would deny me access to the internet after a certain BAC.

 
You did manage to get an upvote from me for that. Other people having new Shallarin headcanons? YES. 
 
However, I'm gonna differ with you. I really, really want Shallan to keep her Shardblade. I could see this happening where she thows it to him in the heat of the moment (though throwing a Shardblade seems ill advised...), but I wouldn't want her to give it to him permanently. My endgame Shallarin would be Shardbearer!Shallan and artifabrian!Renarin.
 
In fact, I want to see Shallan develop her own one-handed style of "feminine" sword fighting. After all, if "true feminine pursuits and arts were those that could be performed with one hand, while masculine arts were those performed with two hands" then couldn't a one-handed style be considred a feminine art? I mean, Shardblades are light enough that it could be possible. Also, can you imagine it? Fencing with a sweeping Shardblade style? How awesome would that be?
 

Or, how about Szeth does not realise that Dalinar has given his shardplate to Renarin and kills Renarin thinking him to be Dalinar in plate.
 
Ouch!
 
As for the Bromance...
 
There are interesting parallells between Renarin and Adolin's Relationship as brothers and Kaladin and Tien's relationship. Both have a confident and capable older brother with a more timid / weaker younger brother. 
 
I find it unlikely that Renarin will die since it will be almost like Tien's story all over again. Although Renarin dieing and Adolin going darkside in rage / dispair would set up an excellent contrast with Kaladins development following the death of his brother. I think this would work very well narratively.
 
I think that friction between Kaladin and Adolin in WoR is inevitable. Adolin still has some notions about darkeyes place (in a kind of casual elitist kind of way - i.e. not really deliberate but a cutural inertia) and Kaladin still gets uppity when any Lighteyes order him around. Maybe they will end up best buds eventually, but for now, I doubt it.
 
Kaladin and Renarin, I think, may well get on well as I think Renarin will remind Kaladin of Tien and he will fell that protective urge as always. Maybe this could even fuel some slight jealousy in Adolin and exacerbate the friction between him and Kaladin...
 
We shall see. Either way, if Kaladin and all the Kholins all get on and are best buds from day one then it will all be a bit prosaic IMO.

 

In regards to that first comment: COULD YOU NOT?

 

You did say that Renarin probably won't die which is probably why I haven't sent my assassins after you quite yet, but by the Survivor, what is this? Why is there Kalarin? Are you going Kalarin too? Like... the fact that Renarin might remind Kaladin of Tien is one of the very reasons that the Kalarin shippers throw around as support all the time.

Whaa... are you and Gloom in this together? Did Kogi get to you both? Or is this simply a new strategy... You know that I can bring around the wrath of tumblr for any talk against Renarin, but if you two start using Kalarin against me instead...they'll probably just join you. Harmony's forearms... that's devious.
 

So be it...
 
Little does Feather know that I have managed to bond myself to a cakespren (on account of how much of it I eat)
 
My manipulaion of the buttercream and sponge surges will allow me to surely prevail!
 
...Or at least have a fantastic last meal

 

And there you are completely incorrect. My spies informed me days ago about your bonded cakespren. However, I also know that you are no match for me and my bonded coffeespren. I said the First Ideal aloud when reading WoK accidentally, and a few weeks ago I even figured out the Second Ideal of my order: I will procrastinate on all of these essays and cry at three in the morning when I still haven't done them.

 

So now, as a fully realized "Dreamscorner" I can now control the surges of Restfulness and Hope, which I can use to stay up for days on end and push the soul-crushing emotional despair of not finishing assignments onto my enemies. You're going down.

Edited November 6, 2013 by FeatherWriter

[marianmi]

She throws Renarin the Blade, but he turns one second too late.

And now the number of sin fruits is increased by one.

damnation, he had so much potential.

Then she goes mad, join Odium, start killing every shardholder, and collect'em shards, such that no one will repeat her mistakes.

After collecting 100 shards, she will have so much power, she will become a shard herself. She will be known only as "Blades".

[Mailliw73]

Renarin and Shallan work in a joint effort with their individual Shards and Surges and together incapacitate Szeth. He escapes and tries to kill Dalinar again and then that's when Kal takes him down.

[Aethling]

He might have tried to buck the family trend, but he doesn't seem to have done it fairly well.  At least for that family, it seems to be playing a big role.  it might not be anything more than the family mores causing the correct actions, but that still falls under family.

[FeatherWriter]

@marianmi

I... I... I can't...

 

I think I just got usurped as the fandom monster. That's it. Congratulations on having the worst possible headcanon for how that scene is going to go. I just...

 

Edited November 6, 2013 by FeatherWriter

[marianmi]

We don't really know how Szeth will even react to a surgebinder with the same powers as his, but no shardblade.

 

 

EDIT:

 

 

@marianmi

I... I... I can't...

 

I think I just got usurped as the fandom monster. That's it. Congratulations on having the worst possible headcanon for how that scene is going to go. I just...

 

 

I'm sorry I am not a writer, I'm sure somebody else could have done a much better job...

But really ... throwing a shardblade...? Not gonna happen.

 

 

 

EDIT:

 

 

Pffft.... BEST WEAPON EVER: A ShardBow. WIth a ShardArrow....

 

Shoot, summon, shoot, summon....

Now this would be great for a fanfic.

Edited November 6, 2013 by marianmi

[Mailliw73]

Or a Shardgun with shardbullets. Same thing, just more advanced.

Back to the OP, what if the reason no one sees Renarin's spren is because it's not real? (Not that I really think he's crazy, just a theory)

Edited November 6, 2013 by Mailliw73

[Guest Alaxel]

Etymology of 'headcanon' pl0x.

Also, you're right Feather.  I didn't intend for Shallan to give Renarin her blade for keeps.  Just because, being in plate while Szeth attacks, he'd be the best suited for combat. (suited, har har.)  Throwing it would be relatively safe since, even if Renarin fumbled it, he's wearing Plate and would likely emerge unscathed.  But yeah, he gives it back afterwards.

 

The other alternative is something like...Renarin distracts Szeth.  Maybe he does something like hold out his hand like he's summoning a Blade.  That action would increase his threat level towards Szeth quite a bit.  But it's actually a sneaky signal to Shallan for her to summon her blade and then BAM it's Shallan Davar who kills the Assassin in White.

 

...and then maybe she'd give Renarin Szeth's blade?

[LightReader]

I had been leaning towards a Shallan/Kaladin ship (thinking perhaps she would remind him of Laral, although the more I think about it the more I imagine she would see him more as an interesting specimen for her collection than as an equal), but after reading this thread, as well as browsing through some of that Tumblr stuff and FeatherWriter's fanfic, I am swayed towards Shallan/Renarin instead. I really like the gender-role flipping idea, especially within a culture where gender differences are so significant and clearly defined.  And after WoT where the whole masculine/feminine magic thing made everyone mistrust everyone of the other sex, it would be cool for the magic itself, being so clearly gender-neutral, to actually bring the sexes together instead of separating them.  

 

 As for characters potentially turning anti-hero, I don't really see it with the current POV characters. I can imagine Adolin having a hard time with Kaladin for a while, as he probably wasn't too happy about Kaladin giving him orders at the Tower, and there could be some friction between them if Adolin percieves Dalinar as favoring Kaladin.  Renarin just seems too genuinely nice and understanding of people to ever resent anyone for almost anything (although I do see him resenting his own limitations).  The person I can see most as an anti-hero is Elhokar actually.  He's so wrapped up in his own little world, paranoid and self-conscious, worried about people thinking he's weak, I can see him making bad choices.  We've already seen it to some extent I think.  

 

I'm realizing that none of this has much to do with Renarin's special spren, and adding my two cents that if Renarin becomes a KR, then I like the Skybreakers or the Bondsmiths but I can't decide which I like better for him. Bondsmiths seems more compatible with the artifabrian side of him, if indeed that is the order that makes the shardplate, etc. Although I do like the idea about having the first trait and needing the second.   I like the idea of Renarin becoming a Radiant, but I'm also considering the possibility that the spren Renarin sees that no one else does is related to his ASD (like maybe he has a special and unique connection to the cognitive realm because his mind works differently from other peoples').  

Edited November 6, 2013 by LightReader

[marianmi]

Etymology of 'headcanon' pl0x.

Also, you're right Feather.  I didn't intend for Shallan to give Renarin her blade for keeps.  Just because, being in plate while Szeth attacks, he'd be the best suited for combat. (suited, har har.)  Throwing it would be relatively safe since, even if Renarin fumbled it, he's wearing Plate and would likely emerge unscathed.  But yeah, he gives it back afterwards.

 

The other alternative is something like...Renarin distracts Szeth.  Maybe he does something like hold out his hand like he's summoning a Blade.  That action would increase his threat level towards Szeth quite a bit.  But it's actually a sneaky signal to Shallan for her to summon her blade and then BAM it's Shallan Davar who kills the Assassin in White.

 

...and then maybe she'd give Renarin Szeth's blade?

 

No offence, but the entire Renarin + Shallan working together to kill Szeth is so... BAD... I am lacking words Sorry.

 

We do have our duel on the cover... Szeth vs. Kaladin. Just like the previous cover showed Dalinar vs. Eshonai, I am more inclined to believe this duel will take place, but it will be of little consequence in the entire picture (like Dalinar vs. Eshnonai, the entire battle at the Tower was way more epic). So please let me hope for an epic battle, where Kaladin vs. Szeth is just the cherry on top.

[Mailliw73]

I think it could have both Renarin and Shallan fight Szeth and Kaladin fight him too. In my previous post, I said that Shallan and Renarin team up to incapacitate Szeth, but neither has the combat experience or skills required to succeed in killing him and he escapes to continue on his path to murder Dalinar. But Alas! Who have we here, flying to our favorite highprince's rescue? Kaladin Stormblessed! Flying in, Kal and Szeth proceed to have an epic duel.

[marianmi]

Why would Renarin be wearing his plate? Plates are not worn in camp usually. I highly doubt Renarin will start parading around in Plate on a daily basis... And w/o his plate, he's nothing to Szeth...

And, you see Shallan ATTACKING a person right now? Summoning the blade? She did not even think of doing that when she was thinking she will get raped and killed... 

 

Edit:

 

On the other hand, I liked how the flashbacks in Kaladin's story were related to his current situation. And hope it will be the same for Shallan...

Edited November 6, 2013 by marianmi

[Mailliw73]

Shallan's not as timid as you seem to think. She is gutsy and impulsive. If someone is attacking her current home, I think she would try tostop them.

Actually, now that I think about it, I can see Jasnah coming out to fight too. Basically everyone in the camp who is capable of fighting, I can picture running to help protect Dalinar. If they hear news of or see Szeth's arrival, of course.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Mailliw73

[Greywatch]

And all this to say, Szeth is smart enough to recognize there are some pretty strong people motivated to protect Dalinar. In fact, the idea of attacking Dalinar in this net of safety is why Szeth, talented and amazing as he is, was the one given the task. I really doubt any of these scenarios take into account that Szeth is not going to be ignorant enough of the population in the Kholin warcamp to try and attack Dalinar while any others are in a position to defend him.

 

It makes infinitely more sense for Szeth to wait or create a scenario where Dalinar is separated from anyone but his bodyguards. Kaladin (or Moash or Skar) are the only ones, plausibly, who will be in the position to stand between Szeth and Dalinar.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Greywatch