NEW INFO: Renarin's Spren

[DocHoliday]

#pokes bear with stick#<br /><br />Maybe I'm just biased, but it's the cute cuddly seemingly harmless characters that I'm most worried about in just about anything. * cough Taravengian cough* My whole point is that seemingly innocent characters might not stay that way. Life happens, death happens, and when **** hits the fan, people can undergo huge shifts in philosophy and what is acceptable to them.<br /><br />Now to wave the flag, from what we've seen of Renarin, he is an inherently devoted character with virtues that Alethekar has dismissed. I like him, and I see a lot of me in him. That doesn't mean BS can't whip out a head snapping event to change who he fundamentally is in 20 years.<br /><br />#flees in terror of Feather wrath#

[Natans]

Renarin turns evil?! Noooo way! If he really does, I'll probably die… Really hope he's on his way to become a KR…

 

 

Free Upvote because a really like your drawings =) 

 

 

 

 

I don't know if I agree with Renarin confident argument.

 

When he was talking with Dalinar ( The "I will not be the first son a of a great warrior that was no talent to batle") I was under impression that he was a bit insecure and/or bitter.

 

But how know. if he show some promisse with his shine new shardplate maybe you guys are right, but now is hard to me do believe so.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Natans

[FeatherWriter]

Lets hope his spren doesn't get corrupted, turning him evil...

 

*runs away and hides

 

*Puts hat on stick, pokes it around corner*

Man, that Renarin, how about how lame... um, those glasses are?

*Drops stick and runs after MadRand*

 

#pokes bear with stick#<br /><br />Maybe I'm just biased, but it's the cute cuddly seemingly harmless characters that I'm most worried about in just about anything. * cough Taravengian cough* My whole point is that seemingly innocent characters might not stay that way. Life happens, death happens, and when **** hits the fan, people can undergo huge shifts in philosophy and what is acceptable to them.<br /><br />Now to wave the flag, from what we've seen of Renarin, he is an inherently devoted character with virtues that Alethekar has dismissed. I like him, and I see a lot of me in him. That doesn't mean BS can't whip out a head snapping event to change who he fundamentally is in 20 years.<br /><br />#flees in terror of Feather wrath#

 

 

Dear diary,

Today three silly fools forfeited their rights to happiness, joy, and life itself by deigning to speak against my dear, sweet Renarin in my presence despite having been warned of the dire and irreversibile consequences of such carelessness. I have spent the last twelve hours plotting their most intricate and deviously creative downfalls as part of my righteous revenge. I shall enjoy feasting upon their souls. 

 

Renarin turns evil?! Noooo way! If he really does, I'll probably die… Really hope he's on his way to become a KR…

 

*pats Botanica on the head* Don't listen to their nonsense, my wonderful, artistic friend. We will run away from their nonsense and bury ourselves in Shallarin fanfic and art. Darling Renarin will be perfectly fine and nothing bad is ever going to happen to him ever. I am completely sure of this because of reasons.

Edited November 5, 2013 by FeatherWriter

[Shardlet]

... artististic ...

 

Is that like a sadistic artist or something?

[WeiryWriter]

If Brandon has finished the final edit, why does his webpage have it listed as WoR 4th/5th draft — 10%?

 

Probably because no one has gotten around to updating it.  On Oct. 24 he mentioned in a tweet that he expected "the last draft to be done in a week or two."

[FeatherWriter]

I don't know if I agree with Renarin confident argument.

 

When he was talking with Dalinar ( The "I will not be the first son a of a great warrior that was no talent to batle") I was under impression that he was a bit insecure and/or bitter.

 

But how know. if he show some promisse with his shine new shardplate maybe you guys are right, but now is hard to me do believe so.

 

(Wow I totally missed the last half of your argument.) Yeah, I would definitely not say that an argument for Renarin's confidence would be very tenable. The poor boy is cripplingly insecure. When Sadeas calls him "useless" we see that he flushes and looks down, as though he's ashamed to be called out on something he knows is true. Later, when Dalinar tells him that he should be more careful we get this exchange.

 

“I don’t fault your bravery; I fault your wisdom. What if you’d had one of your fits?”

“Then perhaps the monster would have swept me off the plateau,” Renarin said bitterly, “and I would no longer be such a useless drain on everyone’s time.” “Don’t say such things! Not even in jest.”

“Was it jest? Father, I can’t fight.”

 

Yeah... feeling useless to the point of contemplating suicide, really not the strongest argument for confidence. We later see him say the quote about “I am not the first hero’s son to be born without any talent for warfare. The others all got along. So shall I." But that's the end of his conversation with Dalinar, where he's just been convinced that perhaps his death would not be a benefit to everyone. He's resigned himself to staying alive. That's definitely not a confident mindset. That's a cripplingly insecure mindset. (And it makes me just want to hug him forever.)

 

Is that like a sadistic artist or something?

 

Hush you, I haven't slept in the last 40 hours. I am currently running on Renarin feels, coffee, and sheer willpower.

Edited November 5, 2013 by FeatherWriter

[Daishi5]

I worry about Renarin.  The Way of Kings has this idea of strength before weakness, defending those who can't defend themselves, and everyone will be weak at some point in their lives.  Renarin is a character who is weak at this time, and the ideals and the Way of Kings make it pretty clear they should be defending him and respecting him, while Vorin society in general really holds no respect for him because he can't fight.  

 

I can see him going one of two ways, either he goes evil because of the failings of Vorin society.  Or, he gets at least one moment of awesome where he, the normally weak character, defends a character who used to be strong and he gets to be an example of why the Way of Kings is the right way and Vorin society is the wrong way.

 

There is also the additional problem that is basically, we haven't been inside his head yet.  From the times in Dalinar and Adolin's heads it seems pretty clear to me that they are headed straight in the right direction.  Brandon could be hiding the clues that Renarin isn't on the right path by just not giving us his POV. 

[Maximus]

I'm not sure where the idea that Renarin is mentally ill comes from. I have always seen his "weakness" as something like epilepsy.

 

As for his spren, if he is to become a radiant which would he be? In my mind, without looking at the list of radiant attributes, I would put his primary attribute as "thoughtful". He seems like the quintessential introvert(much like myself, seriously, no one scores higher on the introversion scale than I do). A possible secondary attribute is "stable". Not prone to emotional swings(very much unlike his brother). He also seems largely unaffected by fear of physical harm in the chasmfiend fight(although social anxiety is a different matter)

 

Now to go look at the list and see where that fits.

 

Edit: Wise/careful seems like a good fit.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Maximus

[WeiryWriter]

I'm not sure where the idea that Renarin is mentally ill comes from. I have always seen his "weakness" as something like epilepsy.

 

As for his spren, if he is to become a radiant which would he be? In my mind, without looking at the list of radiant attributes, I would put his primary attribute as "thoughtful". He seems like the quintessential introvert(much like myself, seriously, no one scores higher on the introversion scale than I do). A possible secondary attribute is "stable". Not prone to emotional swings(very much unlike his brother). He also seems largely unaffected by fear of physical harm in the chasmfiend fight(although social anxiety is a different matter)

 

Now to go look at the list and see where that fits.

 

Edit: Wise/careful seems like a good fit.

 

Brandon has confirmed that Renarin is on the Autism spectrum.

 

Wise/Careful was my first thought as well.  I dismissed it though because Brandon says "no else sees" the spren Renarin sees.  I take that to mean no one else sees that kind of spren and since we know Jasnah is an Elsecaller and very likely sees her order's spren I don't think it is likely they are the same order.

[Gloom]

First, I would like to remind everyone that Feathers are only dangerous in the hands of Fletchers, not Writers. If you feel the need to eviscerate Renarin, well, he's used to it and has probably suffered worse, so feel free.

 

I don't really care what happens to Renarin. His role thus far has been without any real consequence. At this point he's still a red shirt as far as I'm concerned. I think he has potential. He could definitely make an interesting character, but at the moment, he isn't. When I picture Renarin, I see a kid on a horse following a young warrior. That's about all the impression he's made on me.

[hoser]

Renarin really has a lot going for him.

1. He is brave: with the chasmfiend and going to Sadeas' camp
2. With his disability, he can be both compassionate and able to see what others miss.  He will not struggle w/arrogance and entitlement as Adolin will. 
3. He is defended against Sadeas (no-one lesser will mess w/him) and Wit's attention seems somehow supportive
4. The smartest people around take him seriously and are influenced by his ideas: Dalinar, Adolin, Navani, Wit
5. He is given responsibilities and Dalinar is concerned w/helping him be productive. 
6. He thinks creatively to find solutions: testing the visions

Whether his disability is overcome or not, he can contribute greatly. 

[Maximus]

Brandon has confirmed that Renarin is on the Autism spectrum.

 

Wise/Careful was my first thought as well.  I dismissed it though because Brandon says "no else sees" the spren Renarin sees.  I take that to mean no one else sees that kind of spren and since we know Jasnah is an Elsecaller and very likely sees her order's spren I don't think it is likely they are the same order.

 

Hmmm... I wouldn't classify Autism as a mental illness, but be that as it may, I have been accused of being on that spectrum myself though never diagnosed, so it makes sense.

 

As to the kind of spren, I guess that is open to interpretation. Also I would say Renarin fits those attributes far better than Jasnah.

 

Proposition: Jasnah doesn't survive the next few books leaving Renarin to complete her work.

[WeiryWriter]

Hmmm... I wouldn't classify Autism as a mental illness, but be that as it may, I have been accused of being on that spectrum myself though never diagnosed, so it makes sense.

 

As to the kind of spren, I guess that is open to interpretation. Also I would say Renarin fits those attributes far better than Jasnah.

 

Proposition: Jasnah doesn't survive the next few books leaving Renarin to complete her work.

 

I really wouldn't either, but some do I guess.

 

I do think that idea would be neat.  I'm just not so sure...

[Guest Alaxel]

Renarin strikes me as the kind of character who is building up towards a critical moment of self sacrifice. He'll likely fill the critical support role. That character who is instrumental to another character's success, but without the accompanying glories.

Wit seems to hold him in higher than average regard. And Wit, obviously, has had much more off screen interaction with Renarin than we are privy to. I am curious as to what exactly Wit likes about him. To my knowledge, Renarin is one of the terribly small minority who receives praise disguised as mockery from Wit.

Also, I find myself hoping that Shallan and Renarin have a sneaky relationship where Renarin teaches Shallan to use her Shardblade and Shallan teaches Renarin to read. All of this would be done in secrecy, of course. But the colossal explosion of happy from FeatherWriter, seeing her fanfic go canon, would be awesome to watch lol

[Fistsofrage]

Well, I'm going to hold judgement until I see what Renarin can do in that suit of shard plate. It's supposedly going to remove the disadvantages of his weakness, but it remains to be seen if Renarin is capable of being a warrior. 

[FeatherWriter]

First, I would like to remind everyone that Feathers are only dangerous in the hands of Fletchers, not Writers. If you feel the need to eviscerate Renarin, well, he's used to it and has probably suffered worse, so feel free. 

 

I don't really care what happens to Renarin. His role thus far has been without any real consequence. At this point he's still a red shirt as far as I'm concerned. I think he has potential. He could definitely make an interesting character, but at the moment, he isn't. When I picture Renarin, I see a kid on a horse following a young warrior. That's about all the impression he's made on me.

 

I... I... there are no words. Ow... Like. OW. Thou hast made a grave mistake in the making of an enemy of me, Gloom! You shall rue the day you thought to disparrage Renarin. Just. You. Wait.

 

Feathers aren't dangerous... yeah right.

 

Also, I find myself hoping that Shallan and Renarin have a sneaky relationship where Renarin teaches Shallan to use her Shardblade and Shallan teaches Renarin to read. All of this would be done in secrecy, of course. But the colossal explosion of happy from FeatherWriter, seeing her fanfic go canon, would be awesome to watch lol

 

If any part of my fanfic became canon I you can rest assured that I would probably pass out and just die right on the spot. (Also, aaaaaaaaaaaah people read my fanfics???)

 

Hmmm... I wouldn't classify Autism as a mental illness, but be that as it may, I have been accused of being on that spectrum myself though never diagnosed, so it makes sense.

 

I don't mean to sound rude to you or WieryWriter, but... if you're not classifying Autism as a mental illness... what would you classify it as? And what would then classify as a mental illness according to you?

 

Well, I'm going to hold judgement until I see what Renarin can do in that suit of shard plate. It's supposedly going to remove the disadvantages of his weakness, but it remains to be seen if Renarin is capable of being a warrior. 

 

Personally, I don't want Renarin's Plate to solve his problems. (I also don't want Radiant powers to solve his problems.) I was talking to Kogi about this and she almost wanted Renarin's spren and possible Radiant-ness to hold off for a few books even, though the more I think of this, I don't think it's likely. Renarin's growth needs to come from himself, not from a power or object. I think learning that there isn't a magic solution or piece of armor that's going to make everything better is a big step for him, but one that will be hard for him to go through.

 

In fact, I think I almost want Shardplate to turn out as... not a good thing for him? I'm thinking even Shardplate isn't going to help in the event of a debillitating anxiety attack, and it's possible that something like a claustrophobic reaction could make the Plate trigger an episode. Taking away the hope of Plate is something I think could be a very developing thing for Renarin.

 

Edited November 5, 2013 by FeatherWriter

[Daishi5]

With Kaladin as our example of the path to KR.  I think that if Renarin stays on the good guy side, he is going to do so through strength of character and personal growth, not from getting magical items that "fix" his problems.

[WeiryWriter]

I don't mean to sound rude to you or WieryWriter, but... if you're not classifying Autism as a mental illness... what would you classify it as? And what would then classify as a mental illness according to you?

 

I just think the term "mental illness" has a negative connotation. Autistic brains just work differently, and that can potentially cause issues but I just think using the term "illness" gives the wrong impression.  I know this is a bad metaphor but lactose-intolerant people have bodies that work differently but you wouldn't call it an "illness."  I think "mental condition" would be a better description, instead of giving the impression that something is wrong, it implies something is different.  Does that make sense?  I don't want to seem like I am belittling those with Autism, because that is not my intention at all I just think illness is the wrong word to use? I hope I am not stepping over any boundaries or anything.

 

I view mental illness as something that causes a deviation from a person's normal brain-chemistry.  From what I understand, which is admittedly limited if I am off-base on this please correct me, but while a person with autism does have non-standard brain chemistry it is normal for them.  Basically, long story short, illness gives the impression of something being "wrong" which gives the impression that something is "less" than if it was working "correctly."  It is horrible, and I wish things didn't work that way but "illness vs. condition" is my way of fighting it.

 

Edit: I know I can't stop other people from calling it an illness, but I won't.

Edited November 5, 2013 by WeiryWriter

[FeatherWriter]

@WeiryWriter: Ah, okay that's a good explanation. For a moment I thought it was something like "Autism isn't really a thing enough to be considered a mental illness" and that felt wrong, but if it's the connotations of the words themselves, that's a much better reason to be arguing against it. And yeah, I see Ellie using the term "neurotype" when talking about herself and Renarin. You're right in that we should draw a distinction between something like depression, which is "your brain is not working the way it is supposed to" and autism which is "your brain works differently than most people's." Thanks!

[Mailliw73]

@Feather's & Ellie's reponses to the antihero Renarin, all I have to say is: Hear, Hear! That was AMAZING!! Beautiful!

Edited November 5, 2013 by Mailliw73

[Argent]

What differentiates a condition from illness (in terms of psychology) is the individual's ability to function normally. If the condition has enough impact on any aspect of your life to be a problem, it's an illness. In reality it's much difficult to decide which one is more appropriate, but everything we've seen from Renarin suggests that he has a condition, not an illness. The only aspect of his life affected by his mild autism is the social one, and even there he is no less capable than your average autism-free introvert. 

[Greywatch]

What differentiates a condition from illness (in terms of psychology) is the individual's ability to function normally. If the condition has enough impact on any aspect of your life to be a problem, it's an illness. In reality it's much difficult to decide which one is more appropriate, but everything we've seen from Renarin suggests that he has a condition, not an illness. The only aspect of his life affected by his mild autism is the social one, and even there he is no less capable than your average autism-free introvert. 

 

Doesn't he also have something they call "blood weakness"? And panic attacks? I was under the impression there was more than autism.

[Natans]

What differentiates a condition from illness (in terms of psychology) is the individual's ability to function normally. If the condition has enough impact on any aspect of your life to be a problem, it's an illness. In reality it's much difficult to decide which one is more appropriate, but everything we've seen from Renarin suggests that he has a condition, not an illness. The only aspect of his life affected by his mild autism is the social one, and even there he is no less capable than your average autism-free introvert. 

 

 

Just saying

 

http://autismmythbusters.com/general-public/famous-autistic-people/

 

While Autism is thought to be a ‘newer condition’, histories and records have revealed that many notable figures in history may have been on the autism spectrum. Although many reports are technically inconclusive due to the lack of a comprehensive history, many of them have significant evidence to at least point towards a person on the Autistic Spectrum.

Albert Einstein

Einstein had difficulty with social interactions, had tactile sensitivity, was very intelligent yet found his language difficult at times, and had difficulty learning in school. It may have been that Einstein had such a hard time with learning in school because he did not have the accommodations and different teaching styles that many autistic children need. Because of this, it makes perfect sense that someone so intelligent and full of ideas about the world could fall behind in school. It also makes sense that, because of his social interactions with others, he found it difficult to get a job despite his intelligence. Many of the individuals also have a lack of desire for food and the same disregard for timeliness of meals as Einstein. However, Einstein did not care what he ate and completed his meals with no complaints. Many other autistics were very specific about the kinds, colors, textures, and smells of foods if they had any aversion to food at all. His carelessness for the time or necessity of food rather than persistence on what the food he ate is slightly different than most autistics. However, all autistics are different, and therefore it is indeterminant whether this should be classified as an autistic trait or not. Einstein had a relationship with a woman whom he eventually married and had three children with. The marriage seemed to have quite a bit of difficulty, but the woman gave birth to three children with him. However, although Einstein showed love and concern for his children, the he could not stand for the children to touch him. This, sounds very characteristic of an autistic. It is important to realize that Einstein was very different and it was his difference that made him develop ideas that made him famous. Therefore, his differences made him the celebrated individual he is today. This should give us a second look at those who we consider different, and make us realize that being different is not a bad thing. It is instead, something to be celebrated and accepted.

Source: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3676-einstein-and-newton-showed-signs-of-autism.html

Amadeus Mozart

Mozart reportedly had repeated facial expressions and unintentional constant motion of his hands and feet It was also believed that Mozart’s hearing was very sensitive and intense and loud sounds made him feel physically sick. Other reports indicate that he was excessively active. Mozart was unable to carry on an intellectual conversation and existed in a careless and reckless way with impolite and frequent mood changes. It is reported that one day, Mozart was particularly bored and jumped up and hurdled over tables and chairs, meowed like a cat and did somersaults. Mozart’s letters indicated a presence of echolalia which may be a way of communicating for autistics. These characteristics indicate that Mozart could have been on the autistic spectrum.

Source: http://www.brighthub.com/mental-health/autism-pdd/articles/88340.aspx

Sir Isaac Newton

Newton was very quiet and not very good at ‘small talk’, or typical day to day conversations. He was extraordinarily focused on his work and had a hard time breaking away. He was often so focused that he forgot to eat during these times of intense focus. This is a trait very commonly found in autistics and this extreme focus often blocks out other things that would likely capture an individuals attention. Newton was not good at keeping or making friends as he did not appear friendly, nor did he know how to talk with individuals he did consider to be friends. Newton also relied strongly upon routines. For example, if he had been scheduled to give a lecture, that lecture was going to happen whether there was an audience or not.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2988647.stm

Charles Darwin

Prof Michael Fitzgerald conducted research on Charles Darwin, and supplied numerous facts supporting his theory that Darwin was autistic. Fitzgerald stated that Darwin was a solitary child, and even as he grew to be an adult, avoided interaction with people as much as he could. He wrote letters often, but did not often partake in face-to-face communication. Writing letters was his preferred means of communication. This is similar to other autistics who adopt other ways to communicate that vary from direct speaking. Darwin collected many things and was very intrigued by chemistry and gadgets. This fixation on certain topics and objects is another characteristic often seen in autistic people. He was a very visual thinker, as many autistic people think spatially and visually. Fitzgerald describes Darwin in this article as, “a rather obsessive-compulsive and ritualistic man”. Together, these characteristics seem to point to the conclusion that Darwin most likely had some form of autism.

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/4680971/Charles-Darwin-had-autism-leading-psychiatrist-claims.html

Thomas Jefferson

There is speculation that Thomas Jefferson, the third president and writer of the Declaration of Independence may have been autistic or have Asperger’s syndrome. Norm Ledgin, author of Diagnosing Jefferson, indicates that Jefferson was shy, had an inability to relate to others, had difficulties in public speaking and was sensitive to loud noises. Also, similarly to Einstein, Jefferson had a difficulty with his finances. Although he kept an accurate record of all of his transactions, he died in debt. He also had an obsession for remodeling his home and was very eccentric. Jefferson had some “abnormal” tendencies including wearing slippers to important meetings and always having a mocking bird that sat on his shoulder to keep. This mock bird may have been an effort to keep him calm during social interactions. Unfortunately, due to a fire, there are no records of Jefferson’s childhood. Therefore, it is difficult to determine whether he may have had delayed speech or display any earlier signs of autism.

Source: http://www.jonathans-stories.com/non-fiction/undiagnosing.html#Thomas%20Jefferson

Michelangelo

Michelangelo’s artistic genius may have been a symptom of autism. Two doctors, Dr. Arshad and Professor Fitzgerald said, “Michelango’s single-minded work routine, unusual lifestyle, limited interests, poor social and communication skills and various issues of life control appear to be features of high-function autism or asperger’s syndrome.” Michelangelo had obsessional behavior, a fiery temper, and the propensity to be a loner which could be signs of autism. Michalengelo was also obsessive and followed repetitive routines. If he did not follow these routines, it would create great frustration. Michelangelo has been described as strange, without affect, and isolated, as well as being “preoccupied with his own private reality.” These characteristics may point to a diagnosis of autism and may have helped him become the creatively artistic individual he is famous for.

[Mailliw73]

Ok, I just have one question for the people who think Renarin will turn into an antihero. Are you talking about the same Renarin Kholin as I remember??

Hey Doc, how do feel that your one comment sparked two and a half pages of debate?

I'm actually for the idea that Adolin becomes an antihero, or at least jealous and more evil than he is currently, because of Renarin getting Surgebinding powers and Plate when Adolin himself just has Shards.

Alaxel, you're so right. I hope A Strange Mix of Both becomes canon, well the idea behind it at least.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Mailliw73

[Maximus]

 

@WeiryWriter: Ah, okay that's a good explanation. For a moment I thought it was something like "Autism isn't really a thing enough to be considered a mental illness" and that felt wrong, but if it's the connotations of the words themselves, that's a much better reason to be arguing against it. And yeah, I see Ellie using the term "neurotype" when talking about herself and Renarin. You're right in that we should draw a distinction between something like depression, which is "your brain is not working the way it is supposed to" and autism which is "your brain works differently than most people's." Thanks!

 

 

Yea this is sort of how I see it. I kind of see it like being really, really tall. It can be an advantage in some cases, but it makes you stand out as different, and can be disadvantageous. I guess extreme gigantism could be considered a disorder, but other than that people don't usually consider being tall an illness.

 

 

I'm actually for the idea that Adolin becomes an antihero, or at least jealous and more evil than he is currently, because of Renarin getting Surgebinding powers and Plate when Adolin himself just has Shards.

 

Yeah, Adolin seems much more likely to be the antihero at this point.