NEW INFO: Renarin's Spren

[WeiryWriter]

Edit: Also, I don't know if I'm behind on news but I just saw on my Kindle that WoR will only be 864 kindle pages opposed to WoK's 1009. That is 150 pages difference!

 

I wouldn't put too much faith in that.  Brandon has mentioned that WoR has pretty much turned out to be the same length as WoK (even though he promised Tom Doherty it would be shorter... I'm kind of glad he was wrong).  And he like just finished the final edit, I would be surprised if it had already been typeset and that information released to booksellers.  I'm guessing it just an estimate, most booksellers have them even if the book isn't even finished being written.

[FeatherWriter]

If I'm remembering my spoiler etiquette correctly, there is no need to tag Stormlight spoilers in the Stormlight boards. Spoilers for other Cosmere works should be hidden, though.

 

Yes, Renarin is the second son of Dalinar, Adolin's younger brother. He and Adolin are both cousins to Elhokar (the current king) and Jasnah. http://coppermind.net/wiki/House_Kholin (Also I am a little bit obsessed with him and he is completely my favorite character and I think I'm emotionally compromised with this... Thus me asking the question in the first place.)

 

@marianmi: If any of the Kholins die, I'm going to cry for like seventeen days and then probably fall into a coma. I'm really hoping all this "Dalinar dies" talk is obfuscation. Please, Brandon, don't do this to me.

 

EDIT: Whoops. Wrong wiki. Didn't mean to do that. Fixed now.

Edited November 4, 2013 by FeatherWriter

[WeiryWriter]

If I'm remembering my spoiler etiquette correctly, there is no need to tag Stormlight spoilers in the Stormlight boards. Spoilers for other Cosmere works should be hidden, though.

 

Yes, Renarin is the second son of Dalinar, Adolin's younger brother. He and Adolin are both cousins to Elhokar (the current king) and Jasnah. http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/House_Kholin (Also I am a little bit obsessed with him and he is completely my favorite character and I think I'm emotionally compromised with this... Thus me asking the question in the first place.)

 

@marianmi: If any of the Kholins die, I'm going to cry for like seventeen days and then probably fall into a coma. I'm really hoping all this "Dalinar dies" talk is obfuscation. Please, Brandon, don't do this to me.

 

I have a sneaking suspicion that Dalinar will not be the one who dies before his viewpoint book.  Brandon is quite vocal that a person might not necessarily survive until their book, but he always uses Dalinar as an example.  I think Brandon might be using it as a red herring.  Or Brandon is just playing mind games with us and he knows we would think that and rule Dalinar out so it is Dalinar... 

 

(and Hiss... foreign wiki)

[Guest Alaxel]

Not really a spoiler, I just didn't want to over cluter this thread. Below is my reasoning as to why it will be Szeth, not Dalinar or anyone else, who dies before his POV book.

I think Szeth will be the POV character to die. Out of all the characters, Szeth's past is the most mysterious. What events led to a transformation of character so profound that it can compel Szeth to weep even as he slaughter innocents? That is what makes Szeth interesting. Not, "What can he do?" but, "What has he done?" That makes his past more important to the story than his future. Sure, he's intriguing. But he's also a one trick pony. He's has surgebinding powers without a Nahel Bond and is at the complete mercy of the will of the person who holds his Oathstone. Those are all things we want to know the history of far more than the future.

Kaladin and Dalinar, on the other hand...they have interesting pasts, but it's their potential futures that are really intriguing. "What will they do?" is a much bigger question than, "What have they done?" Just look at our own forum here at the 17th Shard! Everyone has theories about what Kaladin is planning on doing with Bridge Four, or wondering if he'll overcome his mistrust of ligbteyes. His past isn't as important as his potential. And Dalinar is in the same situation.

I know what you're all thinking: "But this is Brandon Sanderson, master of misdirection, the bait and switch, and bamboozlement." I agree. He often has delightful twists in his books. But remember, We haven't even read the second book of a ten book series. This series will take a minimum of 10 years to complete. It's far too early for Sanderson Trickeries this early in the novel.

So there you have it. My meta reasoning on why Szeth will die in a confrontation with Kaladin. Because Kaladin and Dalinar have important futures and a dead character has no future, while Szeth's past is important and dead character's can still have flashback sequences.

(Also, if Szeth has an Honorblade, I wonder which one he wields? I know Nalan's Honorblade was known as the sword of retribution, but I don't know if that was an offical honorific and all Honorblades have a unique one, or if that was merely a nickname for the Honorblade that depended more on the nature of Nalan himself rather than the nature of his weapon.)

[Fistsofrage]

Well hopefully we'll gain some insight into Renarin's thoughts and find out what kind of person he is. A Renarin pov in WOR would go a long way towards that end.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Fistsofrage

[FeatherWriter]

I certainly would appreciate more Renarin of any kind, but a PoV would be greatly appreciated. It's intolerably difficult to write from his POV, can I just say. Not that it stops me from trying...

[Gloom]

I wouldn't put too much faith in that.  Brandon has mentioned that WoR has pretty much turned out to be the same length as WoK (even though he promised Tom Doherty it would be shorter... I'm kind of glad he was wrong).  And he like just finished the final edit, I would be surprised if it had already been typeset and that information released to booksellers.  I'm guessing it just an estimate, most booksellers have them even if the book isn't even finished being written.

 

If Brandon has finished the final edit, why does his webpage have it listed as WoR 4th/5th draft — 10%?

[marianmi]

I think he thought 3rd edit was last... apparently is not...

Probably that's why the book was delayed... 

 

For grinning at Dalinar's death: a good death is better than 10 books of nothing I thought the first book taught us that it's the journey that matters, not the destination I would be disappointed if everyone turns out to be a goody goody KR, which fights in the last battle in the last book.

[Mailliw73]

Well, if there's no journey, it can't be put before destination.

Alaxel, those are quite good points, I think I'll have to agree with you on that one. I so hope it isn't Dalinar. (I hope you don't mind that I'm now espousing that in my sig )

And thanks, WeiryWriter, for the clarification on the pages. I hope it gets to be the same length as TWoK.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Mailliw73

[Argent]

And once again I find myself agreeing with Alaxel... I am making a habit of it. If this doesn't stop, I might find myself in a situation where I have to deal with a serious mancrush, and I hate dealing with those.

 

But finally, on Renarin's spren... Going purely off the divine attributes of the Heralds, I can see him as a potential fit for:

• Dustbringer (Brave / Confident). Top candidate. He is brave, as evident by the chasmfiend scene. He is also kind of confident, but "kind of" is the operative phrase here. If we interpret Brandon's words as "he sees a spren nobody else sees in Words of Radiance," then maybe. Assuming he builds up his confidence there somehow, and also starts seeing his spren for the first time. If he is already seeing the spren in The Way of Kings, then I might be a little lost... Kaladin didn't start seeing Syl until he exhibited both of Jezrien's divine attributes.
• ??? (Learned / Giving). My least likely candidate. He is learned, and his devotion and support to Adolin could kind of be viewed as him being giving, but I think it's a stretch.
• Stoneward or Bondsmith (Dependable / Resourceful). This was going to be my top candidate, but unfortunately this order (#9) is also my top candidate for Dalinar. And I feel like he is a better match for those attributes.

Bottom line, I think he'll need to see some character growth before seeing that spren.

[Mailliw73]

Hey, Argent? The attributes associated with Chach and the Dustbringers are Brave/Obedient. Confident is an attribute of Nalan's Order.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Mailliw73

[Smidge]

It seems everyone is jumping the gun here and assuming Renarin sees a radiant spren...

Another possibility is it's a spren he sees during his weakness periods, which like deathspren or drunkspren are only visible to those in certain states.

[DocHoliday]

It seems everyone is jumping the gun here and assuming Renarin sees a radiant spren...

Another possibility is it's a spren he sees during his weakness periods, which like deathspren or drunkspren are only visible to those in certain states.

Glad I'm not the only one who considered this possibility. But I have to ask...

Has anyone considered he might be seeing/ bonding a Void Spren?

 

I see a lot of opposition here to against ALL  the Kholins beginning Radiants. What if Renarin ends up as an anti hero?

Granted he is devoted to his brother. He is courageous and leaps to his father's defense against a chasm fiend. So we know there is familial devotion.

 

But these are the things that create shock and awe in a reader. Like Anakin turning on Obi-Wan. Like Warbreaker.

This could be a matter of perspective. After all, we have zero insight into Renarin without a POV. Outside actions do not necessarily reflect interior motive.

[FeatherWriter]

Sorry, but my knee jerk reaction is against Renarin going anti-hero, so so much. Perhaps I'm biased, but I simply cannot see it happening. I mean, I've done the research, I've poured over every mention and occurrence of Renarin in Way of Kings. (Writers gotta do research you know, and then writing his Coppermind article just solidified my knowledge of him.)

 

So, before we go any further, let me explain you a thing.

 

Everything we see of Renarin shows kindness and thoughtfulness and an activeness in trying to not hurt people. Adolin talks about him pausing before he speaks (which some find unnerving) but I think it shows his desire to make sure he's choosing the right words. He shows an immense passivity for fear of hurting others. When Sadeas calls him "useless" right in front of his face, Renarin shrinks back and goes silent. When Adolin starts to get too hot-headed, Renarin's the one who lays a hand on his arm, time and time again, to make sure his brother doesn't do anything rash. Even when Wit teases him relentlessly, Renarin's instinct is to go quiet and not fight back—which Wit of course then immediately uses to his advantage.

 

This quiet, sweet person going antihero? Or, as some have suggested, Renarin going power-hungry when he gets his plate and turning evil? There's no way. By the Survivor, when he finds out that Dalinar and Adolin have "died" and that he's now Highprince, he nearly collapses, and if it's not a full-out anxiety attack, then it's nearly on the verge of one. 

 

I'm going to bring in the other character that I've done extensive research on, because I apparently have a "type" and these two have a lot of similarities: Loki, from the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Now, Loki is an antihero (at least in the first movie, Thor. Arguments can be made whether he's full-out evil for The Avengers.) But anyway, Loki at the beginning of his character arc has a lot of similarities with Renarin: they are both younger brothers who don't fit the masculine ideal of their respective cultures, they both have older brothers who exemplify the masculine ideal of their cultures. They're both the quiet, clever type—they don't confront their problems head-on the way their brothers might, but see the creative solution that no one else is looking for. They both love their brothers very much, though this love is tinged with the slightest bit of jealousy, for their brothers are seemingly "perfect." Their brothers are popular and have friends, while Renarin and Loki are both somewhat alone in terms of social circles. 

 

I actually speculated on this a bit: what if Renarin's character arc were to go like Loki's does? What if he finds out he's adopted and is actually a member of an enemy species (I picked the Parshendi, for obvious reasons.) Actually wrote the beginnings of a fic for it, but I couldn't get more than a few paragraphs in before realizing: Renarin's reaction to finding out something like that would be wildly different from Loki's. Because underneath it all, they're very different characters, despite their very similar situations.

 

Loki, even from the beginning, harbors a kind of resentment for his culture, which he feels doesn't understand that he is valuable and could make a good leader. When given the chance to rule, Loki takes it as his chance to prove himself—but despite his good intentions, everything goes awry and he ends up turning evil as he feels he has been cast out and can never fit in. Loki has a confidence in himself—that he is capable and can do a good job when given responsibility—and feels frustrated that no one else believes in him. He ignores when he is too emotionally compromised to make good decisions and pushes through into mistakes, so determined to prove himself that he ends up hurting others.

 

Renarin shows none of this. Renarin doesn't blame Vorin society for not appreciating his talents (and yes, he does have them, but I won't go into that here; suffice it to say that he is so much more than "worthless," Sadeas). Renarin blames himself for not being able to be the son that a Highprince deserves. Renarin isn't bitter, he's disappointed in himself and feels useless. He wants so badly to be useful, to be able to do something great and make his father proud, but he's convinced himself that he doesn't have anything to offer and he doesn't deserve to be happy.

 

That's not the kind of person who lashes out against others, the kind who goes anti-hero trying to do the right thing but becomes "evil" because he's making bad choices and has lost sight of what's important. No, Renarin's brokenness is not the kind of hurt which hurts others, but a hurt which hurts himself. He turns his pain inward, believing that he deserves it, whereas an anti-hero candidate like Loki turns it outward, hurting others because he believes he has been wronged. Renarin doesn't lash out, he breaks down. And this is the hurt from which he needs to grow and overcome.

 

Sorry, this got very, very long, but people thinking that Renarin is potentially "evil" is one of my biggest beserk buttons and will get me to drop an essay so quickly it's not even funny. So yep, have an essay. I should have been doing my homework, but Harmony dangit, I gotta defend my baby Renarin instead.

Edited November 5, 2013 by FeatherWriter

[FeatherWriter]

Double Post, I know, but not really, because I'm making this on someone else's behalf. When my dear friend Ellie, (swamp-spirit) found that I was defending Renarin over here, she asked if I could pass along her personal post that she happened to have just posted. She's got a similar non-standard neurotype to Renarin, and she talks about her perspective on his character, as someone who struggles with the same things that he does.

 

(Tumblr is laxer on language than 17S, so she has given me permission to edit her language to match the guidelines here. Other than that, this is all her own. You may click the links to see her original wording.)

 

(Original Post)

 

Long overdue emotional post about Renarin Kholin and representation

Long and not at all grammatical 

 

Like many of us on tumblr, I have always escaped into fiction. When I was younger, I read every spare moment. There were times where I didn’t have friends, where I was being pretty badly bullied, and books were where I found my center.

 

The thing is, to me, books were never a thing where you got to relate to characters. Half the female characters had arcs centered around boy friends when I just wanted friends.

 

The thing is, none of the characters thought like I did, at all. I’m not even talking about.. like… they cared too much about boys. It was that their world view, their social interactions, their language patterns were never near mine.

 

A neurotypical, straight cis-white dude can name a million characters who check all four boxes, who are exactly like them. So yeah, I look at fictional and can find a number of cis-white people, but that’s all things society tells me I’m normal for. I don’t need to see them in fiction to know I belong. To find stories about incidentally queer people (ie, where queer people get stories about something besides how tragic being queer is. Where I get to watch people like me fight dragons), especially women, is almost impossible.

 

But, for me, more importantly, I don’t get to read about people who think like me. Iron Man can have a couple of panic attacks, but nothing too extreme, nothing that would make him look “crazy”. No. People like me, we only get stories about institutionalization and instability. We are tragic or scary or jokes. 

 

Do you have any idea what it feels like to grow up barely functional and nobody will tell you what’s going on or why? Then you turn to books and they confirm it: You’re a freak. You don’t belong here. You don’t get to be a hero. Go home.

 

When this is the same thing your head is trying to tell you. Look how broken you are. You don’t belong in this world.

 

So then there’s Renarin who is confirmed, for once in my life, to actually think like me. And this is in high fantasy, that is only just now starting to admit that women may actually exist and do things other than look stunning or possibly be a spitfire runaway princess.

 

I can name on one hand other characters confirmed ASD (all male) and once I factor in anxiety, that number drops to 0. Factor in panic attacks, and that number remain 0, but is slightly more ringingly prominent.

 

But Ellie, you may say, of course your brain type doesn’t get as much representation. You’re in the minority.

 

Okay but that’s bull.

 

A. The real world is filled with alternate brain types, and I personally know a number of people who have confided very similar struggles and dianosises to me. We are all over the place if you bother to look.

 

B. We are who you tell stories about. My neurotype, along with a number of other mental illnesses, may not be too common in the general public, but is quite common for trauma victims (like 95% of story heroes are, even if the author doesn’t bother to address it), along with a number of important figures because those of us with weirdy brains are often the ones who shake things up. We are artists and writers and revolutionaries.

 

So I will cling to Renarin Kholin for dear life. I will cling to him because, at 20 years old, for the first time in my life, I get to read about a character who is fighting the same fight I am. Who’s awkward at conversation, whose mobility is limited because panic attacks make it dangerous, who has trouble connecting, and holds on to the connections made for dear life. Who is expected to fill roles they cannot comprehend or match up to. 

 

We are different people, of course. I have still never gotten to read about an autistic woman, or an autistic queer person. I know my trans* and non-white friends are still waiting too, but we are here.

 

And we exist.

 

Even if I forget sometimes.

 

Even when I wake up shaking from dreaming of people laughing at my seizures

 

Because I’ve seen them do it

 

Even when authors erase every part of my existence that doesn’t fit their own world

 

I’m real

 

I’m here

 

And I can fight dragons too

And in response to "Renarin might be/become evil" theories (which we have seen and tried to deal with before), she had this to say:

(Original Post)

On an angrier note to the last post

 

When you say Renarin seems “shifty” and “evil” because of the way they act

 

YOU ARE LOOKING AT SOMEBODY WHO IS CLEARLY AND CANONICALLY WRITTEN AS MENTALLY ILL, IS DIRECTLY STATED BY HIS BROTHER TO BE MISTREATED AND MISREAD DUE TO POOR SOCIAL SKILLS AND READING HIM AS EVIL

 

YOU ARE TAKING ONE OF THE LIKE… TWO CHARACTERS IN FICTION WHO ACT LIKE ME AND CLAIMING HE SEEMS EVIL FOR ACTING LIKE ME

 

forget

 

you

Edited November 5, 2013 by FeatherWriter

[The Count]

Hmmm... I wonder if this is related to Dalinar visiting the Nightwatcher...

 

I know there has been speculation that Dalinar's Boon was related to Renarin. IIRC the speculation was that Renarin was a sickly child and Dalinar asked for him to survive.

 

No evidence for this though.

 

I also agree with the people above who point out that Renarin does not necessrily have to be bonding to see a unique spren.

Edited November 5, 2013 by MadRand

[deddinty]

What I'm most excited about from this quote is the suggestion that we'll be seeing more of Renarin in the future and probably even in a bigger role. I'm ok with that.

I may have squealed a bit in excitement on reading this as well.

[Aether]

I know it's not the most likely Order, if Renarin indeed becomes a KR, but I SO want to see him as a Dustbringer! Imagine how cool it would be, to give the kind and gentle character of Renarin - almost to the point of passivity - being given the power to blow s**t up!

[Guest Alaxel]

Alaxel, those are quite good points, I think I'll have to agree with you on that one. I so hope it isn't Dalinar. (I hope you don't mind that I'm now espousing that in my sig )

 

It makes me all kinds of happy and giddy with excitement that you espouse one of my theories, Mailliw73!

 

And once again I find myself agreeing with Alaxel... I am making a habit of it. If this doesn't stop, I might find myself in a situation where I have to deal with a serious mancrush, and I hate dealing with those.

 

Alaxent...or Argaxel...OTP!

[Argent]

Oh no, you didn't... Argaxel sounds positively distasteful!

 

As for the rest of you, I would implore you to avoid saying bad things about Renarin, FeatherWriter here becomes a dangerous person when provoked in that manner

[Aether]

As for the rest of you, I would implore you to avoid saying bad things about Renarin, FeatherWriter here becomes a dangerous person when provoked in that manner

IS there really anything bad to say about Renarin? He seems like the most gentle person ever. I just hope I get to read about him blowing stuff up.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Aether

[FeatherWriter]

IS there really anything bad to say about Renarin? He seems like the most gentle person ever. I just hope I get to read about him blowing stuff up.

 

*stops protectively hissing over Renarin just long enough to upvote that comment* *slinks back into protective huddle around him*

 

Oh no, you didn't... Argaxel sounds positively distasteful!

 

As for the rest of you, I would implore you to avoid saying bad things about Renarin, FeatherWriter here becomes a dangerous person when provoked in that manner 

 

And you'd better know it, Argent. I will fight you all if you touch my baby. He is adorable and sweet and mine. I have feels and essays and research I am not afraid to derail this thread to use them. "Renarin could be evil" is the fastest way to get me to drop meta on a topic since that one person who tried to argue with me that Elend was a rapist. 

 

Also, all I really have to do is like, mention "someone said something about Renarin that was a little not nice" to the tumblr fandom and all of a sudden there's like an angry mob behind me ready to throw down analysis, kidnap Renarin into protective custody, and capslock school the doubters. I still remember when some of the admins came over to tumblr for the first time and were like "Dang, you guys are really this passionate about Renarin? He's not even a viewpoint character!" 

 

And yes. We are. Tumblr Fandom AKA the Renarin-Storming-Kholin-is-a-totally-adorbs-cutie-and-if-you-disagree-you-are-wrong-sorry fanclub.

Edited November 5, 2013 by FeatherWriter

[The Count]

Lets hope his spren doesn't get corrupted, turning him evil...

 

*runs away and hides

[Kurkistan]

*Puts hat on stick, pokes it around corner*

Man, that Renarin, how about how lame... um, those glasses are?

*Drops stick and runs after MadRand*

Edited November 5, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Botanica]

Renarin turns evil?! Noooo way! If he really does, I'll probably die… Really hope he's on his way to become a KR…