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Theory: Returned that feed of Stormlight


Yata

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Returned that feed of Stormlight

 

I put together this theory about "How could a Returned lives on Roshar for long (maybe infinite) time without Breath supply".

 

First of all begin with "well know facts":

- The Returned was dead people resurrected through the Divine Breath.

- The Divine Breath is a Splinter of Endowment

- A Returned must feed of One-Breath-amount of Investiture every week, or dies.

- The Sprens are Shard's Splinters (like Seon).

- On Roshar a Bond could grant additional powers.

- The Seon-Bond are confirmed to give new powers on Roshar.

- There are a Returned on Roshar who could be possible not use Breath to stay alive.

 

 

Now I would add some of my "thesis" (this are contestable) :

- The Returned are Bond with their Divine Breath.

- The Roshar's Manifestation of Investiture had two effects:

        1) Granted Ability based on the Bond's nature (example: a Seon-Bond doesn't grant the "surges").

        2) Granted the Ability to access to Roshar's Investiture (Stormlight) to use the point 1 Abilities.

 

I have finished this long prologue and began to explain what my theory is:

The Returned are Bond to their Divine Breath and on Roshar their Bond granted them addictional Powers. Regardless what this "powers" are, they are granted to the absorption of Stormlight to fuel them. This Stormlight could be used by the Returned to remain alive.

 

A Returned could "suppress" his own Divine Breath every day and "unsuppress" it only when He would/must feed of Stormlight, this could me made directly from ad Highstorm (Dangerous) or quite easy from a Infused Sphere hidden from the Other's sight.

 

If this is true, Roshar is the perfect Returned's Habitat. It offer an abundant Free Investiture (like other Shardworld) and a easy way to use its (otherwise from other Shardworld) to someone with a Bond.

 

I really appreciate your opinion about this theory of mine :)

Edited by Yata
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Pretty sure there has been a WoB on this.

 

You've read Words of Radiance, yeah? Do you know who Zahel actually is?

 

Cosmere Spoilers

Zahel is Vasher from Warbreaker, and he does indeed use Stormlight in place of his 'weekly Breath' meal

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Pretty sure there has been a WoB on this.

 

You've read Words of Radiance, yeah? Do you know who Zahel actually is?

 

Cosmere Spoilers

Zahel is Vasher from Warbreaker, and he does indeed use Stormlight in place of his 'weekly Breath' meal

Yeah sure!

This theory was made to explain an "how he can do it" without complex Investiture-Hacking !

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Just twigged that where spren and seons are splinters that attain sentience, divine breath bond with the dead, and perhaps share their sentience that way. This might account for the memory loss?

Also (having trouble quoting on mobile) there might be a difference between holding a breah and holding Stormlight: if a returned could take in Stormlight there's nothing to suggest they'd be any better at holding it in than a (human) surgebinder.

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Also (having trouble quoting on mobile) there might be a difference between holding a breah and holding Stormlight: if a returned could take in Stormlight there's nothing to suggest they'd be any better at holding it in than a (human) surgebinder.

There is something in the Returned's Biology that consume Investiture. This "something"consumed the Divine Breath as Last resource but if there is another source of Investiture. It will use it.

 

If you prefer to have WoB in this way:

 

 

QUESTION
Can Returned feed on Stormlight?
BRANDON SANDERSON
This is definitely possible.

and more details:

 

 

BLACKYETI
Did he [Vasher] actually come from Nalthis and not Roshar?
BRANDON SANDERSON
I’m not going to actually answer that one. Well I can answer that: yes he does come from Nalthis. It’s pretty obvious that the way that the Breath’s working, the reason he moved is because it’s easier to get Stormlight than Breaths, and Stormlight can fuel being a Returned like him. And so yes, he was born on Nalthis. Becoming Returned without being born on Nalthis would be really hard.
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  • 2 weeks later...

.

 

If anyone from Nalthis could handle complex investiture hacking, it'd be Vasher. I'm not sure he needs a simpler way to do it. :)

Oh yeah, that he could...Now why do I want him to meet Jasnah after reading that ?

 

Now on the subject, it is true and proved that returned can feed on Stormlight in some way, be it by a hack of some sort or simply by being able to naturally breath it in as Surgebinders do. However the fact that they can do so might be problematic for Roshar just as Nightblood's presence is: In a WoB were he responded about a question of Szeth statement on the Voidbringer being able to perfectly hold Stormlight Brandon indicated that nothing(on Roshar at least)could do so and that the stuff was designed to get out of things and that it actd a bit like the cycle of water.

 

However,a returned Body actually consumes the investiture hence it cannot get out so if lots of returned came to Roshar for some reason this might potentially  be rather problematic for the locals.

 

Now I wonder how much Stormlight is needing to sate a returned's hunger like a breath does or if enough of it might enable the returned to get further Hightenings or other totally new benefits.

 

On that note, I cannot help to see some similarity between the Aimians and the returned, so we know that the scholars created Nightblood by inspiring themselves from Shardblades/Honorblades so might it be possible that Aimians are the result of someone on Roshar trying to CULTIVATE returned of her own thus them being distorted/modified returned just as Nightblood is a...Frankensprenblade ? Also note that Aimia is the native home of the Larkin a strmlightsucking beast...

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The other thing to consider as well is that Spren and Seons are beings composed of sentient investiture that have a Splinter of a Shard, and can bond with humans.

 

Wheras Returned are a human that died and was resurrected by being granted a Splinter of Endowment, and they, to our knowledge, can not bond with other humans.

 

It's entirely possible that a Returned is akin to an unbonded Spren or Seon in terms of their abilities on Roshar, due to not having a bond with any other being. I expect the fact that they have a physical body makes them different from Spren and Seons in a fundamental way, although it is possible that that difference might not interfere with the odd realmatic conditions around Spren and Seons on Roshar. The question really is whether the Surges granted by Nahel bonds are a result of connection to a Splinter like the OP thinks, or a result of a bond to a Splinter-holding being of sentient investiture, like I think. (Really hoping that Brandon does an interlude featuring a "Knight of Devotion" who brought their Seon to Roshar at some point :D :D)

 

I expect using Stormlight to achieve heightenings would be even more difficult than using it to maintain the Divine Breath. Heightenings are a result of investiture on Nalthis, the same way healing is a result of investiture on Roshar. As for the Returned and Stormlight leaking, it's entirely possible Vasher/Zahel times breathing in his Stormlight very carefully just before his weekly consumption of Investiture, so he can minimise how many spheres he needs to possess disguised as an Ardent, and technically a slave.

Edited by Ari
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.....

To be honest I think you mix something together.

With your (and mine) definition of a Returned (that can be wrong of course). A Returned is a creature, similar to a Knight Radiant (not to a Spren): One Sentient Physical Beins (Dead but the human) and One Splinter of a Shard (The Divine breath).

And if (like the WoB suggest) bonds are granted new powers on Roshar, a Returnd of default may grant the powers because he is actually in a Bond.

 

About the feeding of Stormlight, I said (in the first post) about how Vasher coud feed without any (logistic) problems. And also having a "stormlight consumption" it possible that the radiance is suppres (like the Shallan's Illusion).

But more easy Vasher could wake up every morning,absorb the Light of a Sphere and after some seconds, put it again the remain in the Sphere.

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To be honest I think you mix something together.

With your (and mine) definition of a Returned (that can be wrong of course). A Returned is a creature, similar to a Knight Radiant (not to a Spren): One Sentient Physical Beins (Dead but the human) and One Splinter of a Shard (The Divine breath).

And if (like the WoB suggest) bonds are granted new powers on Roshar, a Returnd of default may grant the powers because he is actually in a Bond.

 

About the feeding of Stormlight, I said (in the first post) about how Vasher coud feed without any (logistic) problems. And also having a "stormlight consumption" it possible that the radiance is suppres (like the Shallan's Illusion).

But more easy Vasher could wake up every morning,absorb the Light of a Sphere and after some seconds, put it again the remain in the Sphere.

 

Isn't the breath consumption a weekly thing?

 

And yeah, I totally get that you feel that a body having a divine breath implies a bond. I think we don't have any evidence to suggest that yet and it's pure speculation. :) We know that Spren and Seons are both sentient investiture and thus have something in common that would allow their bonds with living humans to be fundamentally similar. We do not know that the (to our knowledge) non-sentient splinters of endowment bonded to previously-dead bodies have any similarity, either "bonded to themselves" or in relation to some other living human. You need a good reason to suspect that these splinters either are themselves sentient and bonded to the dead body, (ie. they're not a real resurrection, they're the equivalent of a Seon or Spren piloting a dead body and plundering its memories) or you need a way to shut down the argument that they're different in order to back up the Returned counting as a Knight of Endowment due to "self-bonding".

 

Brandon has confirmed that cases like Dominion and Devotion's power on Sel, and Honour's power on Roshar, lead to the magic gaining sentience. I suppose that doesn't rule out it happening in other places, but so far the closest thing we have is Nightblood, who acts nothing like a Returned.

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Isn't the breath consumption a weekly thing?

 

I don't think that is a "one-shot-feeding" but that in the week you consume a breath-amount of Investiture. But also if it's a one-shot, a sphere could be enaugh, "one breath" don't seem have a significant amount of Investiture, the standard Nalthis people have a few (but very few) Investiture over the normal and to be Honest (but it's pure speculation) maybe an average Scandrial is above of them.

 

@About the Divine Breath sentience:

The Splinter to be a Splinter have to be Sentience and indeed it must have a own Intent. It's not a simple "concentration of Investiture". This kind of "Concetration of Investiture" are the divine metals on Scadrial (Atium and Lerasium) for example.

 

@Nightblood is actually an Artificial Spren (Brandon call it a "robot spren"), they take a quite great amount of investiture (1000 breath) and pack together with some "command". The nature of the "host" and "Command" is a lot of different but it's the same "in less scale" of a Returned (even if the Divine Breath keep at least 5 times the investiture of Nightblood).

Edited by Yata
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Do we have a WoB that Splinters imply sentient investiture? Because Endowment is different to other Shards in that her power hasn't been completely Splintered, (and thus isn't gaining sentience on its own) it's being Splintered deliberately, and those Splinters are being attached to humans to save/resurrect them. The reason Spren, Seons, and Skaze are all sentient, to my understanding, was because there is no mind holding their shard. We do have WoB about sentient investiture being a result of unheld Shards: (question 4)

 

 

Leinton
Would Returned still Return if Endowment died?
Brandon Sanderson
Magic in the cosmere needs a guiding force. If it doesn't have one, the magic itself will gain sentience. Or someone would pick it up. So yes, Returned would still come, but there would be something different based on who was guiding the power.

 

The closest I could find to what you were saying is this one: (last question, #23)

 

Wetlander
Please explain what you will about Shards and Splintering and Slivers.
Brandon Sanderson

An event happened long ago which destroyed something called Adonalsium into 16 pieces. And 16 people took up that power.

Question

People?

Brandon Sanderson

I call all intelligent species people. If someone takes up the power and lets go of it, it has the effect much like a balloon that's been stretched and then the air is let out. I call that a Sliver; based off of the Lord Ruler calling himself the "Sliver of Infinity". The Lord Ruler is someone who held the power and then released it. And so, current Slivers are the Lord Ruler, Kelsier, and there may be others around who at one point held the power and let go of it. A Splinter is a term used by certain people in the cosmere for power of Adonalsium which has no person caring for it, no... no person holding it, which has attained self-awareness.

Wetlander

So is that like the mists and the Well? Are they...

Brandon Sanderson

They are not, because they have not attained self-awareness. But, the Seons are self-aware. So, any piece, for instance there were some spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation got there. Those were already Splinters of Adonalsium where he had left power which attained sentience on its own. So, it can be intentional is what I am saying, does that make sense? You have seen other splinters.

 

Wetlander

Are the highstorms related to the splintering of Honor?

Brandon Sanderson

The highstorms are more related to the mist from Mistborn which terminology we have not discussed yet. You have seen splinters quite a bit on various planets.

 

I couldn't find anything on Theoryland regarding all Splinters automatically being sentient investiture, but this is the closest, which as I expected, doesn't rule out that the sentience of the Splinter is provided by resurrecting the human host for it. In which case, there isn't any sentient investiture involved, and we would need to know more about how it functions to determine if they'd get any cool Roshar powers. (I would presume they don't until we have info otherwise) I suppose you could argue that this entails a bond to the sentient human holding the Splinter, but I'm really not sure that counts. I thought the whole reason the Nahel bond functions as it does on Roshar is that you have two sentient people (in the case of Spren, one from the cognitive realm and made of Investiture, one from the Physical realm, capable of giving presence to the cognitive being in the Physical realm) co-operating to do magic.

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KURKISTAN
Are flamespren, are they all doing their own thing, or is there some Ideal of "Fire" sitting in the Spiritual Realm that they're all based on?
BRANDON SANDERSON

Each spren is based on the Ideal of Fire.

KURKISTAN

And is that sitting in the Spiritual Realm?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, we're using sort of a Platonic Ideal, and that concept is in force, so < sounds hesitant > "yes", but [spren] are manifestations of it.

KURKISTAN

So these Ideals in the Spiritual Realm: Divine Breath, does that heal by accessing some Ideal of Human Health: so a guy who had never had a tongue and doesn't know how to speak all the sudden has a tongue and can speak? [Note: Talking of Susebron here]

BRANDON SANDERSON

You are... < LONG pause > You are, um, on the right track.

KURKISTAN

Okay...

BRANDON SANDERSON

Because the Breath is... eh. How can I explain this? You are, yeah... So... So each Breath is a shade of deity, right?

KURKISTAN

Yeah.

BRANDON SANDERSON

And each Breath incorporates into it this sort of idea of being endowed by the deity Endowment, correct?

KURKISTAN

Yes.

BRANDON SANDERSON

And so each Breath you hold brings you one step closer to becoming like that, and so what you're saying is... is "yes", kind of true, yes.

KURKISTAN

But it's like within the Breath, not sitting off by itself—

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, yes yes exactly.

 

 

Thought this might be relevant to what was previously said, also there is a WoB there stating that Vasher did not manage to awake stuff with Stormlight(which is not surprising given that Breath tends to stick to things/people Stormlight tends to leak out) on the other hand nothing is said about him being able to use the stuff to get further Heightenings or not or about him having managed to develop a new use for Stormlight inspired by Awakening(which he could have, guy's reallly Smart actually that's what I believe he managed to do).

 

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Do we have a WoB that Splinters imply sentient investiture? Because Endowment is different to other Shards in that her power hasn't been completely Splintered, (and thus isn't gaining sentience on its own) it's being Splintered deliberately, and those Splinters are being attached to humans to save/resurrect them. The reason Spren, Seons, and Skaze are all sentient, to my understanding, was because there is no mind holding their shard. We do have WoB about sentient investiture being a result of unheld Shards: (question 4)

 

 

The closest I could find to what you were saying is this one: (last question, #23)

 

I couldn't find anything on Theoryland regarding all Splinters automatically being sentient investiture, but this is the closest, which as I expected, doesn't rule out that the sentience of the Splinter is provided by resurrecting the human host for it. In which case, there isn't any sentient investiture involved, and we would need to know more about how it functions to determine if they'd get any cool Roshar powers. (I would presume they don't until we have info otherwise) I suppose you could argue that this entails a bond to the sentient human holding the Splinter, but I'm really not sure that counts. I thought the whole reason the Nahel bond functions as it does on Roshar is that you have two sentient people (in the case of Spren, one from the cognitive realm and made of Investiture, one from the Physical realm, capable of giving presence to the cognitive being in the Physical realm) co-operating to do magic.

Well but you posted a Wob that says that:

 A Splinter is a term used by certain people in the cosmere for power of Adonalsium which has no person caring for it, no... no person holding it, which has attained self-awareness.

 

Therefore a Splinter is a "Investiture" separate by the Shardholder with self-awareness.

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Well but you posted a Wob that says that:

 A Splinter is a term used by certain people in the cosmere for power of Adonalsium which has no person caring for it, no... no person holding it, which has attained self-awareness.

 

Therefore a Splinter is a "Investiture" separate by the Shardholder with self-awareness.

 

Brandon is specifically talking about untended, Splintered shards here. While Returned have Splinters, their Shard is doing it deliberately.

 

Different category altogether, and I cannot find any archived WoBs about that. We may just need to tweet him and see if he answers at this point, lol.

 

edit: Well, Brandon tweeted back fast. He says that Returned are highly invested beings, but that the investiture itself isn't sapient.

 

Matt Whitehead @MJWhitehead

@BrandSanderson Do returned have a bond with their divine breath that would give them powers on Roshar? Or are they different to Seons?

 

Brandon Sanderson @BrandSanderson

@MJWhitehead They are Highly Invested beings, but the Investiture is not sapient.

 

I think that means I'm correct that they're different to Seons in this regard, as I specifically asked him about whether Returned get special powers on Roshar. I also put your interpretation first so I wasn't biasing the question or anything.

Edited by Ari
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This might help clear the air a bit, both in regards to a Returns need for a breath, and if a Returned is a Splinter.

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Jan 18th, 2010 SKYLER

If a returned gives away his/her breath they die right? So why doesn't Vasher die after he gives his to Denth?

BRANDON SANDERSON

They will die the moment they run out of breath to harvest. Once a week their body needs a breath in order to survive. Each Returned has one single superpowered breath. Imagine it as one breath that propels them up through the Heightenings, but it is only a single breath. It's what we speak of in Shard world terminology as a Splinter. And when the seventh day comes, if a Returned does not have another breath for his body to consume to keep him alive, his body will actually eat his divine breath and kill him. So they don't die immediately after they get rid of the breath, they're sort of put into a state of limbo where if they don't find more breath by the time that their feast day comes, then they will die. (Vasher did not give his Returned breath to Denth, just a number of normal breaths.)

HOWEVER there is a bit of contradiction in his words, when you compare your quote "They are Highly Invested beings, but the Investiture is not sapient." with the quote below (Above he says that a Divine Breath is a Splinter, but your quote says that Returned's Investiture is not sapient, and below says that a Splinter has to be Self Aware... But he did say a Divine Breath was a Splinter, soo i'll go with presuming it is)

 

 
INTERVIEW: Oct 14th, 2013 WETLANDER
Please explain what you will about Shards and Splintering and Slivers.
BRANDON SANDERSON

An event happened long ago which destroyed something called Adonalsium into 16 pieces. And 16 people took up that power.

QUESTION

People?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I call all intelligent species people. If someone takes up the power and lets go of it, it has the effect much like a balloon that's been stretched and then the air is let out. I call that a Sliver; based off of the Lord Ruler calling himself the "Sliver of Infinity". The Lord Ruler is someone who held the power and then released it. And so, current Slivers are the Lord Ruler, Kelsier, and there may be others around who at one point held the power and let go of it. A Splinter is a term used by certain people in the cosmere for power of Adonalsium which has no person caring for it, no... no person holding it, which has attained self-awareness.

WETLANDER

So is that like the mists and the Well? Are they...

BRANDON SANDERSON

They are not, because they have not attained self-awareness. But, the Seons are self-aware. So, any piece, for instance there were some spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation got there. Those were already Splinters of Adonalsium where he had left power which attained sentience on its own. So, it can be intentional is what I am saying, does that make sense? You have seen other splinters.

WETLANDER

Are the highstorms related to the splintering of Honor?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The highstorms are more related to the mist from Mistborn which terminology we have not discussed yet. You have seen splinters quite a bit on various planets.

 

Anyway, I'm going to postulate a theory about Spren/Surgebinding using the terms "Investiture" "Activator" "Focus" and "Manifestation".
Obviously the Investiture is Stormlight and the Manifestation is Surgebinding - I've always felt like the Focus of Surgebinding is the Spren (or Honorblade), like the Metals or the Aons. Investiture is put into or through the Focus (Brandon has said it's the atomic make up of the Metal, the way it resonnates, that determines what magic Manifests, as it is the shape of the Aon that determines the magic that Manifests).
The nahel bond would then be the 'activator' that allows the user to do the magicmaking, by temporarily edditing the sDNA (Breaking the bond, changes your sDNA back so that you nolonger have access to Surgebinding).

As a Divine Breath is a Splinter it means that going to a new world it would be able to integrate itself (to a limit) with that world's magic system (as Shards, and Splinters of Shards have effect in a new magic system) - It wouldn't allow you access to Surges as it's not got enough power or sentience to do that sort of thing, but it would probably be enough to allow a Returned to absorb Stormlight (in the place of a Breath) and survive.

Even if that theory is totally off base I would still presume a Returned could absorb a mass amount of Stormlight and temporarily reach higher Heightenings, but as the Returned isn't a proper Vessel for Stormlight (apparently nothing is, even the pure form Gemhearts) it would escape quickly, meaning losing the Heightenings pretty soon...

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  • 2 weeks later...

I am here to destroy my own theory  :(

 

From a recent WoB:
 

 

Q. With most magic systems, you've said that you need some sort of gap in your soul for the investiture to get in. On Nalthis, there's obviously a bit that they can give away. Is this how Vasher is able to get Stormlight?

A. Yeah. (Brandon looked like he was going to expand on this, but he just repeated yeah instead.)
 
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Also I think he confirmed that he doesn't get any powers from the Stormlight.

Yeah but the old information "Vasher use Breath to stay alive on Roshar" didn't smash my theory. Because we know that him may feed on stormlight but instead decides to feed with Breath (to be honest i don't understand why).

The new one, destroys the logic of my Theory or at least the part about "give the ability di consume local investiture".

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