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The Joule-Thompson-Sanderson effect


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Didn't Brandon say that regular metals (i.e. everything except lerasium and atium) are really burned up? And so while Scadrial's low population of Allomancers has never been able to make a serious impact on the planet's reserves, the issue of iron (for example) running out is a real concern for the future of Scadrians? Something he was maybe looking to explore into future books?

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Sorry about the derailment. BioChroma discussions have a tendency to do that.  :unsure:

 

As for the metal question: Good question. There's a claim floating around that the metals return to the planet somehow, but I've yet to see the source for it. Another pseudo-theory that appeals to me is that the metals aren't destroyed, but instead rendered inert and/or changed somehow, while actually still remaining in the Allomancer's body.

 

I definitely remember reading something to this effect, but I can't find it in the interview database.  I will keep looking though.

 

Didn't Brandon say that regular metals (i.e. everything except lerasium and atium) are really burned up? And so while Scadrial's low population of Allomancers has never been able to make a serious impact on the planet's reserves, the issue of iron (for example) running out is a real concern for the future of Scadrians? Something he was maybe looking to explore into future books?

 

He did say that here.

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@Argent: Brandon said here the metals are vaporized, not that they are destroyed. Vapor implies they sublimate into a gas phase, and I distinctly remember reading WOB that suggested metals reform, but without the exact words I could be misinterpreting. About the quote Weiry linked: I see this more as input vs output. If the number of allomancers is sufficient, you can burn the metals faster than they reform and deplete the planets reserves.

@Kurk: Feruchemy doesn't produce any power, but can make use of energy created through other means. When the aluminum ferring's Soul generates energy that is end-positive and unrelated. He can also eat food, absorb ambient heat/light, use Allomancy etc to get energy. Feruchemy only comes into play when he stores the energy previously gained in a metalmind. When he takes it back out there is no more or less energy that he had before, it is just being used at a different time.

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@Isomere
 
On "Vaporizing": I'm inclined to agree with Argent.
 
Also, recall that Kelsier specifically warns Vin that she should burn off all of her metals before sleeping, due to metal poisoning. This tells us that burning a metal gets it out of your body, since having gaseous pewter absorbed into your soft tissue isn't exactly good for you either. So something more than sublimation to gas must be happening.
 
----
 
On end-neutrality: A good analysis on how power flows in Feruchemy. I disagree, though, that any of this analysis supports the claim that Feruchemy is unique in its neutrality in comparison to Awakening.

 

Specifically, you say that "When the aluminum ferring's Soul generates energy that is end-positive and unrelated." What now?

 
Recall the definitions: 

 

[Allomancy] is end-positive, according to my terminology, meaning that the practitioner draws in power from an external source.

[...]

Feruchemy is an end-neutral art, meaning that power is neither gained nor lost.

 

If the aluminum ferring's soul generates energy on its lonesome, then it's not an external source of power. Thus it's not end-positive.

 

All the power manipulated by a Feruchemist is his own (I include Heat and Food and whatnot because they must be incorporated into the Feruchemist in some way before he can use them), with no calls to some 3rd party and no leakage. So Feruchemy is end-neutral. As it turns out, the Feruchemist can create quite a bit of power (which power is "neither gained nor lost" in his manipulation of it) in this manner, but all without spilling into positivity.

 

So too, I would argue, with Breath and Awakening. There need not be any call to a 3rd party—so it's not end-positive—and no energy is lost during the process (normally, at the very least)—so it's not end-negative. Once we agree on those two points, that's all she wrote.

Edited by Kurkistan
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My basic problem with this whole discussion boils down to your claim that breath does not need to draw on an external source to create new energy. I simply disagree. A generator does not create new energy, it converts from one form to another. In this case, the soul is acting as a generator to convert the Power of Creation into a form usable by awakening. Saying the power just appears with no explanation seems... unsatisfying, especially when innate investiture is just sitting there waiting to access a seemingly limitless pool of magical energy. Occam would have words with you about creating a novel source of energy when a well known and firmly established method is readily available.

Edited by Isomere
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Huh.

 

Perhaps you'd be more amenable if I withdrew to a more "turbine" model of discussion? So the Breaths don't actually "create" energy, but their existing energy is simply used in a non-destructive manner.

 

Thing is, I fundamentally disagree that "innate investiture is just sitting there waiting to access a seemingly limitless pool of magical energy." I don't think that's what it does. I think it does its own thing without the need—and perhaps without even the basic capability—of accessing any external source. I think Nightblood (when not drawn) and Shardblades can truck along being magical by themselves no matter what. I don't think innate Investiture relies upon any external source of power. That's what makes it innate...

 

Recall that, at some level we have energy just being "created" out of nowhere. Preservation doesn't lose power from fueling Allomancy, yet the Shards all have a finite amount of power at their disposal. Thermodynamics is deeply unhappy on several levels. I think it natural to say that we can have "self-replenishing" magics on some level beneath that of a Shard, and that (at least some kinds of) "innate Investiture" fits that bill.

Edited by Kurkistan
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I can definitely get behind that interpretation of how investiture works. Perhaps you are right and there is no outside source of power, and it is all created de novo within the investiture. Still, you're saying that if your own innate investiture generates new power it should be ignored when calculating net energy gain. I would prefer to include it, and thus lump any self-sustaining power source into end-positive magics.

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Glad you're on board. :D
 

I think such a categorization would be perfectly intelligible, but it simply does not match up with the given usage of the terminology. Unless Mr. AoLAAA was talking quite narrowly about just the attribute transfer mechanism for Feruchemy, our given definition of end-neutrality seems to allow for non-Shardic investment of energy; Spiritual energy, no less.

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One should not forget that Feruchemy also allows for creation of the infinite amount of physical energy - Feruchemical iron see-saw comes to mind. Not all attributes, of course, but weight, warmth and Health, at least, ignore the laws of thermodynamics rather extensively, and not only them, but also laws of conservation of Energy and Momentum :)

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Specifically, you say that "When the aluminum ferring's Soul generates energy that is end-positive and unrelated." What now?

 

If the aluminum ferring's soul generates energy on its lonesome, then it's not an external source of power. Thus it's not end-positive.

 

So too, I would argue, with Breath and Awakening. There need not be any call to a 3rd party—so it's not end-positive—and no energy is lost during the process (normally, at the very least)—so it's not end-negative. Once we agree on those two points, that's all she wrote.

 

First, let me go on record saying that I think we should not be using Trueselfs as an example, since entire threads have spent a lot of time running in circles trying to decide what feruchemical aluminum does. We're trying to build a castle on shifting sand here.

 

That said, just to try untangling one knot I think I see... I believe that when Isomere discussed "an aluminum Ferring's soul creating energy" he wasn't talking about specifically aluminum Ferrings; your previous contention appeared to be that there was an "energy of the soul" being stored that everyone creates. I believe Iso was saying, okay let's assume that f-aluminum really does store soul energy; if it does, that's a separate process from the feruchemy. Everyone's body generates heat, everyone's body has weight, everyone's body turns food into caloric energy. So, too, does every soul on the planet generate "soul energy" (if that's actually a thing). If so, and if it is end-positive, that is separate from the feruchemy, since literally everyone on the planet who does not have feruchemy also does that thing. Aluminum feruchemy would simply mean temporarily storing that power, and is not "end-positive" because it is a process entirely independent of the generation of that power, just like storing caloric energy is entirely independent of the process of eating. Which again, is not what I think aluminum feruchemy does.

 

I also do not agree that souls generate power on their own; if they do have some mystical 'power' which i don't think they do, it would come from the same place the energy for Ironpulls or copperclouds come from. Mr. Sanderson seems very interested in energy, where it comes from and how it is created, and it doesn't seem his style (I haven't seen any other examples that aren't the Power of Creation) to have something independently create energy just because. As Iso said, Occam.

 

Let's break Awakening down. Energy is absolutely used in Awakening. A rope flinging boulders uses up energy. Your contention seems to be the following: Breaths themselves are souls, and souls generate their own power which has nothing to do with the Power of Creation that fuels allomancy. This power is spontaneously generated with no fuel. I do not accept your premise, and I have not seen you present any evidence supporting your claim. Please note that this is my main point.

 

If you can explain this one fact, if you can show me some reason to accept that every soul on Nalthis, if not the Cosmere, generates power spontaneously out of nothing in a way unlikely anything Mr. Sanderson has shown us except for the very Power of Creation itself, I will consider your idea that Awakening is end-neutral. If you cannot, I clearly have no power to control what you choose to believe, but there will be absolutely no evidence to support your claim.

 

In additional, your claim if true would basically make all end-positive Investiture end-neutral. We know allomancy is end-positive; why then wouldn't it just run on this soul engine? If the power of a soul can raise a person to a Heightening and animate a scarf to throttle a man, why can't it push a coin away from your chest? Why can't it sense bronzepulses?

 

EDIT: To clarify a minor point.

Edited by Darnam
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First, let me go on record saying that I think we should not be using Trueselfs as an example, since entire threads have spent a lot of time running in circles trying to decide what feruchemical aluminum does. We're trying to build a castle on shifting sand here.

 

Okay, fine. Feruchemical copper. Feruchemical zinc. Feruchemical steel. Feruchemical gold even, as it obviously stores something beyond just what you'd find in a healthy body, what with its limb-growing abilities and all. Are those better? The point is, all kinds of Feruchemy store Investiture into their metalminds without any real energy input from the outside. Feruchemical aluminum just seemed the most obviously powered by the soul and nothing but the soul, so help me soul.

 

That said, just to try untangling one knot I think I see... I believe that when Isomere discussed "an aluminum Ferring's soul creating energy" he wasn't talking about specifically aluminum Ferrings; your previous contention appeared to be that there was an "energy of the soul" being stored that everyone creates. I believe Iso was saying, okay let's assume that f-aluminum really does store soul energy; if it does, that's a separate process from the feruchemy. Everyone's body generates heat, everyone's body has weight, everyone's body turns food into caloric energy. So, too, does every soul on the planet generate "soul energy" (if that's actually a thing). If so, and if it is end-positive, that is separate from the feruchemy, since literally everyone on the planet who does not have feruchemy also does that thing. Aluminum feruchemy would simply mean temporarily storing that power, and is not "end-positive" because it is a process entirely independent of the generation of that power, just like storing caloric energy is entirely independent of the process of eating. Which again, is not what I think aluminum feruchemy does.

 

So you're narrowing down the definition of end-neutrality to the mechanism of Feruchemy, rather than the source of the power? That may be a path to making Feruchemy uniquely end-neutral, but I think the language of the AoLAA suggests that neutrality is more about power sources than anything else, what with it saying that end-positivity is about the power source being external.

 

As to everyone else on the planet also having these power sources: Yes, but it's about how you use it. A Breath sitting in a normal Nalthian isn't lifting weights or anything: you have to throw in some magic system so that the Power of Creation there is doing something abnormal.

 

---

 

A real problem I see with your formulation, though, is that if you strip down every magic to just its mechanism and consider the process of getting the energy as "entirely independent" of the utilization of it, everything starts looking end-neutral.

 

We don't have any reason to believe that Allomancy wastes/adds energy from/to that gotten from Preservation, so is it end-neutral? The source of the energy is "entirely independent" of its use, since it's not even really Allomancy until it's filtered through the Allomancer's spiritweb, so it seems that, so long as nothing is added on or taken away by the Allomancer during the process, Allomancy suddenly becomes end-neutral.

 

Once again, our given definitions of the various "ends" specifically talks about the source of the energy being external to the user. The internality of the source is an important point, then, I would think.

 

I also do not agree that souls generate power on their own; if they do have some mystical 'power' which i don't think they do, it would come from the same place the energy for Ironpulls or copperclouds come from. Mr. Sanderson seems very interested in energy, where it comes from and how it is created, and it doesn't seem his style (I haven't seen any other examples that aren't the Power of Creation) to have something independently create energy just because. As Iso said, Occam.

 

Let's break Awakening down. Energy is absolutely used in Awakening. A rope flinging boulders uses up energy. Your contention seems to be the following: Breaths themselves are souls, and souls generate their own power which has nothing to do with the Power of Creation that fuels allomancy. This power is spontaneously generated with no fuel. I do not accept your premise, and I have not seen you present any evidence supporting your claim. Please note that this is my main point.

 

No, actually, I do not say that.

 

Okay, some quick facts:

 

All Shards hold some part of the Power of Creation: they do not channel it, they embody it.

-Power comes from the Shards themselves, not some outsourced soup of "Power of Creation."

-Shards are pieces of the PoC.

 

Preservation gave some part of his power over permanently to empower humanity, weakening himself. Humanity on Scadrial, then, is endowed with a part of Preservation's power. The Power of Creation.

 

Preservation does not lose power when he fuels Allomancy. It returns to him "like water through a turbine" and so he can use it again without ill-effect. This power is the Power of Creation.

 

--

 

So, in short, souls generate their own energy (or non-entropicaly utilize existing energy, if you prefer) specifically because they are made of the Power of Creation. Just as Preservation's "power is spontaneously generated without fuel," so too is the power of the soul in the Cosmere.

 

If you can explain this one fact, if you can show me some reason to accept that every soul on Nalthis, if not the Cosmere, generates power spontaneously out of nothing in a way unlikely anything Mr. Sanderson has shown us except for the very Power of Creation itself, I will consider your idea that Awakening is end-neutral. If you cannot, I clearly have no power to control what you choose to believe, but there will be absolutely no evidence to support your claim.

 

So, in sum: souls are made of "the very Power of Creation itself," the one and only energy source you're willing to accept. Does this mean that I win?

 

Beyond that, I would think that the existence of various Invested objects that do not, at least at first blush, look to draw upon external sources of power at all times (Nightblood, Shardblades...) is evidence on its own, even if I wasn't backed up by various quotes about the Shards and PoC.

 

In additional, your claim if true would basically make all end-positive Investiture end-neutral. We know allomancy is end-positive; why then wouldn't it just run on this soul engine? If the power of a soul can raise a person to a Heightening and animate a scarf to throttle a man, why can't it push a coin away from your chest? Why can't it sense bronzepulses?

 

EDIT: To clarify a minor point.

 

Because it needs a lot more power than that? It takes dozens or hundreds or Breaths to get anything done in Awakening. Also the power of people's souls isn't exactly "geared" towards Allomantic effects. It's sitting pretty doing its thing, and people normally have no way to get at it and try to rejigger its functionality.

 

Unless you have Feruchemy, of course...

 

Also, maybe people can sense bronze pulses... ;)

Edited by Kurkistan
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And again, I would point out that Feruchemy creates energy like there is no tomorrow - in particular, Feruchemical gold can allow you to regenerate lost organs, adding matter to your body (as well as go without breathing/eating for a while). 1 gram of matter, in raw energy form, is sufficient to power human body for thousands of years (assuming average rate of about 300W. It is actually lower) - without growth, of course. So a single regrown finger can account for years of stone-throwing and human-throttling.

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@Sats

 

Sorry, didn't mean to ignore you there. :)

 

That too, though I imagine that it's still going to come down to whether something with an internal power source is allowed to be "end-neutral" (spoiler: yes ;)).

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What I meant is, if one uses definitions from Ars Arcanum (end-positive/neutral/negative), one couldn't rely on no energy gain/production and part of classification, since Feruchemy is end-neutral by that very definition. Myself, I think it has more to do with energy interactions in Shard/Not-shard system.

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