Seeking and Smoking

[Oudeis]

Okay, just checking.

 

You might not be giving uber!Seeker enough credit, actually. Vin could detect Ruin and the Well and skilled Seekers (or Vin, when she cheat with Duralumin) can determine the exact emotions Rioters/Soothers are aiming at. I think an uber!Seeker could Bronze-ify at that mug and know immediately that it was Invested, and perhaps even some details about the type of its Investiture. All on the level of the conscious mind, rather than relying on intuitions.

I am once again being unclear; that is what I meant. To expand on my previous example: He looks at the mug, and physically he sees the Batman mug. He knows that this is what everyone else around him sees. However, he is aware that if it weren't Forged, it would be a Superman mug. What I meant by my similes is that the source of the knowledge is esoteric; he doesn't "see" the mug as being a Superman mug, he doesn't hear someone chanting "superman" in his ear. To his feeling of perception, the knowledge simply arises, like a memory, only he can't recall where he learned it. In his specific case, he is aware that this sensation means "I learned it from bronze" and he eventually gets comfortable with the feeling, but it would have been odd the first times it happened.

 

Another thing to keep in mind: With iron, ironsight is a side-effect; Inquisitors still retain the power to pull on metal sources. Just so with this case; I'd imagine advanced bronzedar is a sensation he feels whenever he burns bronze, but he can still direct it towards specific effects as any other Seeker could.

 

Taking the iron analogy a bit further... in the time of The Final Empire, or even Alloy of Law, people assume that bronze is only ever on or off. When you start burning iron, all that happens is you see the blue lines. It becomes obvious what to DO with those lines (possibly because there's only one thing to do) so people rapidly figured out what else can be done while burning iron. I think bronze is similar. You burn it, and you hear bronzepulses, just like iron lets you see ironlines. No skaa allomancer is ever safe unless he's hidden in a coppercloud so there'd be almost no reason for a skaa Misting (or Mistborn) to risk practicing with a metal everyone things is useless, and anyone Noble or in a Ministry is under the control of The Lord Ruler. Bronze is used to find the Well. It might be useful to locate bindpoints. Mr. Sanderson has said that bronze can be used to sense feruchemy, and Rashek does not want anyone to learn that he's a feruchemist. This is still all rampant speculation, I have nothing concrete to base my conclusions on, but more and more I'm starting to think I will be unsurprised if it turns out both bronze and copper are far, far more interesting than anyone realizes.

[Kurkistan]

That's an intriguing idea, Darnam.

[Oudeis]

I have to fanfic this, but I'm running into so many logistical problems. He has to deal with people from other worlds for full effect, but having him meet that many worldhoppers on Scadrial is preposterous, having him stranded on one other world would deny him access to allomantically active metals, and not only do I not have the faintest notion how a Scadrian would world-hop, but making him a full world-hopper is making an already over-powered character even over-er-powered. Best I can think is, a world-hopping merchant named Plot Device who can be paid to bring you to a different world, and who will keep him regularly supplied with Scadrian metals. This way he's on a planet with restricted access to world-hopping (if he suddenly needs to leave the planet but Device doesn't get back for two more weeks, he's out of luck) but I can justify his access to metal, and occasionally move the story around the cosmere. But even just cosmere-awareness is a relatively over-powered ability, not to mention his access to a lot of very powerful allomancy in a number of worlds that have never heard of this power. Kelsier kills eight hazekillers with relative ease, and they've trained to specifically fight him. Imagine how rapidly a Mistborn would go through the royal guards on almost literally any other world, especially if the Mistborn's specialty was sensing your own Investiture. I'll have to write a story with either such great conflicts they challenge even his capacities, or one where the drama is found in things other than direct confrontations or really anything that any of the allomantic metals would make easy. Sort of a day-in-the-life. Or some manner of mystery, something that has nothing to do with Investiture so he can't just bronze-scan the answer, and action scenes which pose no real threat to him are the method of lowering dramatic tension.

 

And I have NO idea what I'm gonna name him.

[Kurkistan]

Well you know what they say: You can't make Frodo a Jedi without giving Sauron a Death Star. And by Death Star, I mean Catquisitor.

 

Having an even more over-powered worldhopping cat following him to try and get revenge/spike out his super-Bronze/toy with him like a mouse might raise the stakes.

 

Just a thought. I'm not a fanfic writer, I just want to mention Catquisitors whenever possible. 'Cause they're awesome.

[Oudeis]

I confess I am slightly unclear on the definition of necro-ing: if someone could please define it for me, and tell me if I've just commited it or not, I would appreciate the tutoring.

 

A thought occurred to me, a skill a super-smoker might have. Might it be possible to selectively smoke? Change your area to something other than a globe? Or, to decide WHAT you Smoke? Smoke only Pewter, or smoke everything-but-Steel?

 

For example. Let's say we've got a Mistborn undercover as a coinshot. He's in mid-jump, and another coinshot flies up to tackle him. He wants to burn an instant of pewter to give him an edge in the crash, but he worries there might be seekers. If he simply burns copper, any seeker would realize he was suddenly in a cloud, and wonder where it came from. If he were amazing with copper, could he burn to mask ONLY pewter? So he's burning copper, steel, and a moment of pewter at the crash; a Seeker, however, would sense the steel and nothing else, and would only have the worldview to accept the idea that this coinshot could not possibly have been in a coppercloud, and must just be really hard core.

 

Thoughts, anyone? I admit, this is rampant speculation, but does anyone have a thought one way or the other on it?

[name_here]

Necroing depends on the forum community. Usually if it's still on the front page and you have something to contribute it's all good. And we're relatively lax about it because we don't have so much activity it pushes active conversations off.

 

Copper might or might not work that way; I'd say it's possible if it takes practice to block non-allomantic detection abilities, since that would imply it selectively jams certain powers and so could theoretically jam a subset of those. If it auto-blocks Lifesense without needing extra effort, that would imply it is a uniform phenomenon that makes the area inherently resistant to such abilities. Actually, it could hypothetically be possible to test this on Scadrial without external assistance; everyone with a single Breath on Nalthis has Lifesense in some capacity, and I consider it reasonably likely that Breaths are basically segments of spiritweb that are partially detached. So Scadrial natives might have Lifesense by default at a very low level but not recognize it as a real sense. Blocking it would manifest as people finding Smokers kinda odd and not readily noticing their presence. Which would explain a lot, except Vin doesn't use it very much.

 

Apparently detecting other power types is a somewhat tricky business and not many people know about Feruchemy or Hemalurgy. The Steel Ministry apparently never found out, but they might just have shrugged and assumed it was inherently impossible after an original generation Mistborn spent a couple months trying without really knowing where to look. Or Rashek might have shut it down; while he seemed pretty intent on wiping out the Keepers he was also running a millennium-long triple bluff. If it can be used for Hemalurgy, he apparently didn't know how, since all three of the exotic types(Koloss,Inquisitors,Kandra, in that order) were created way back at the beginning.

 

Also, I doubt copper would interfere with most types of powers. As far as I'm aware, we haven't heard of it suppressing any Allomancy outside of the mentals quadrant, and other interference seems to be mainly the domain of the enhancement quadrant. I expect it would only work on powers that are mental in nature. Then again, Scadrial divides everything into clearly delineated categories while the other Shardworlds seem to have everything more intermingled. Plus, while everything has the three aspects, it always seemed to me like everything there was more centered on the Physical with the other two as secondary. Probably it's because Ruin and Preservation have such straightforward Intents.

 

So Smokers might have better luck interfering with more cognative-centric power sets, although given that Feruchemical gold doesn't seem to be affected I'm guessing it only helps against externally-directed powers (yes, Allomantic bronze is an internal, but it picks up external effects that Allomantic copper suppresses). Awakening and Forging would probably be particularly susceptible since Cognitive aspects are so prominent in them even for physical applications.

[Moogle]

So Smokers might have better luck interfering with more cognative-centric power sets, although given that Feruchemical gold doesn't seem to be affected I'm guessing it only helps against externally-directed powers (yes, Allomantic bronze is an internal, but it picks up external effects that Allomantic copper suppresses). Awakening and Forging would probably be particularly susceptible since Cognitive aspects are so prominent in them even for physical applications.

 

Your entire post was quite well written. I'm curious (though I worry about sounding like a broken record): Vin was burning copper when she fought The Lord Ruler, yet she had no problems burning malatium. Would you argue that malatium is internal, like Feruchemical gold or tin? It seems to me like it would similar to bronze, in that it tries to pick up 'signals' from other people in order to show their potential selves. Why is it not blocked? Is it, perhaps, spiritual rather than cognitive under your theory?

Edited November 19, 2013 by Moogle

[name_here]

I'm honestly not all that up on Realmantics. Malatium is an external, but it's also temporal in nature, so I don't know what that qualifies as. Do note, though, that she can use the external mentals while burning copper, and Atium seems to be entirely unaffected by copperclouds.

Edited November 19, 2013 by name_here

[Oudeis]

 

Also, I doubt copper would interfere with most types of powers. As far as I'm aware, we haven't heard of it suppressing any Allomancy outside of the mentals quadrant, and other interference seems to be mainly the domain of the enhancement quadrant. I expect it would only work on powers that are mental in nature. Then again, Scadrial divides everything into clearly delineated categories while the other Shardworlds seem to have everything more intermingled. Plus, while everything has the three aspects, it always seemed to me like everything there was more centered on the Physical with the other two as secondary. Probably it's because Ruin and Preservation have such straightforward Intents.

 

I envision it mattering on externality, primarily. I can envision, maybe, at extremes, when burst or fueled by mist, copper managing to block something like a steelpush, but I couldn't imagine it quenching a Tineye. It couldn't stop Kaladin while he's full of Stormlight, but perhaps it could make it harder for him to Invest. It couldn't stop an Awakened rope in the middle of strangling him, but if he caught an Awakener giving Commands, maybe he could interfere, like what happens when you mumble, the Breaths go but nothing happens.

 

Your entire post was quite well written. I'm curious (though I worry about sounding like a broken record): Vin was burning copper when she fought The Lord Ruler, yet she had no problems burning malatium. Would you argue that malatium is internal, like Feruchemical gold or tin? It seems to me like it would similar to bronze, in that it tries to pick up 'signals' from other people in order to show their potential selves. Why is it not blocked? Is it, perhaps, spiritual rather than cognitive under your theory?

 

I have a theory why it wouldn't be blocked. I think you cannot do both Bronze and Copper because they are direct opposites. I think it blocks emotional allomancy on yourself because that is external, and directed at you, and perhaps because it specifically is in the same mental group as Bronze. It's possible that Copper could deliberately be used to block use of malatium, but here's why I don't think it did.

 

Malatium is temporal, rather than mental. The effects, the hallucination, might be considered mental, but that's secondary to its true bailiwick. Also, Vin herself was burning it. Allomancy frequently makes allowances for itself, like unconscious pewter-burning. Vin, especially, has always been an astoundingly good Allomancer; it's possibly she instinctively made a bit of room in her coppercloud to allow in the malatium-shadows.

 

Lastly, malatium is the alloy of a God metal. I could be wrong, but I think that gives it a power boost. I at least wouldn't be surprised to learn that God metals, even their alloys, are a lot harder to Smoke than others.

[Shardlet]

Kelsier kept his copper on pretty much all the time and even suggested it to Vin if I recall correctly.  This seems to suggest that it would have no effect on either internal or external from he mistborn's perspective.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Shardlet

[Pechvarry]

Darnam, thanks for reviving this topic.  It fell off my "new content" page and we're so bad at staying strictly on topic around here, I can never tell which thread I said what in.  You asked a few weeks ago about what I meant.  Basically, my last sentence was a more clearly stated version of my first sentence: seems like Scadrian Investiture should've been detected in the manner you describe first.

 

But there are some good points to be made.  Even if you can't see spiritweb bindpoints (which I would envision as points where innate Investiture is "closer to the surface"), having the regular Noble population learning how to detect power inside of a hemalurgic spike definitely seems like the sort of thing TLR would suppress.  Can't have them figuring out the source of his and his inquisitors' power.

 

For your fanfic, you made several mentions to importing Scadrian metal.  Is that still a thing?  I thought we finally got WoB that metal anywhere in the Cosmere is potential allomantic fuel.  The one thing I think I should mention: malleable copperclouds and many of your proposed bronzedar (thanks for that, btw) ideas really feel like they should be savant-level skills. Maybe this was your intention, though.

 

Just make sure there aren't any Catquisitors in your story.  Anything but that.

 

Tangent: Iron/Steel don't necessarily need you to "see" either.  Afterall, Inquisitors have no eyes, and Brandon has said a blind mistborn could learn the same trick.  Among other things, this makes me think one could learn to detect metal coming at you from behind while keeping your eyes on your opponent.  Likewise, Bronze is interpreted as a sound or vibration, but is clearly more than that.  I like this parallel a lot. 

[Kurkistan]

Just make sure there aren't any are definitely Catquisitors in your story.  Anything but with that.!!!!!

 

Fixed that for ya'. 

[Vortaan]

Kelsier kept his copper on pretty much all the time and even suggested it to Vin if I recall correctly.  This seems to suggest that it would have no effect on either internal or external from he mistborn's perspective.

 

Kelsier was also not the best source of what is and isn't Allomantically possible. Coppercould piercing and beating atium in particular seemed like things he didn't figure out. Also, he had a year or so and never figured out malatium. Gifted leader yes, smartest Allomancer ever? Not so much.

[Oudeis]

@Pech:

 

I agree with you that such feats should prolly not be possible... but I don't think a Mistborn can savant, can he? And if he could, I don't see how you can savant in both copper and bronze, especially in my speculation of how they work. So... what I'm admitting is, I'm going to cheat. The story will be boring if I don't, so I'm just gonna make my guy overpowered. Yes, I do plan to have plots and characters that are interesting, but I can do that in any story. The spice, the sprinkles atop the sundae that will be my literary creation, will be some interesting uses of copper and bronze, so I'm gonna fudge the rules for my story. I'm so far out on a speculative bridge that some WoB is going to invalidate my entire work well before we get down to the specifics of copper savanting, so I'm just going to give myself a pass on the details. Will it make my story much more shallow? Probably. Will the deeper story be boring and unreadable without it? I think so. Lesser of two evils, please!

[Shardlet]

Kelsier was also not the best source of what is and isn't Allomantically possible. Coppercould piercing and beating atium in particular seemed like things he didn't figure out. Also, he had a year or so and never figured out malatium. Gifted leader yes, smartest Allomancer ever? Not so much.

 

I was referring mostly to posts 57 and 58 where they were talking about (or at least appeared to be) copper interfering (or not) with co-burning other metals.

[name_here]

@Pech:

 

I agree with you that such feats should prolly not be possible... but I don't think a Mistborn can savant, can he?

I'm actually pretty sure Vin got a mild case of pewter savanthood in Well Of Ascension. She was noted to be burning it fairly frequently and averaged four hours of sleep a night over a rather extended period with no noticable ill effects, then collapsed for an entire week at the end after her first lengthy period without pewter in quite a while. Also, Kelsier alludes to the nasty side-effects of overdoing it back when first explaining the metals to Vin, with the implication that it could happen to her.

 

I expect you mostly don't see Mistborn savants because they've got so many options. Since multiple metals will provide potential solutions to any given problem they have, they don't have a good reason to focus on one exclusively. The only metals they'd be likely to overdo are copper, which everyone thinks is absolute anyhow and also doesn't seem to stop Inquisitors even for savants since Clubs burns it constantly but Vin breaks through just fine, and tin, which they generally won't burn during daylight and don't flare too terribly often.

Edited November 21, 2013 by name_here

[Oudeis]

Is there a single instance in the book of anyone ever flaring copper?

 

On a just-barely-related topic, what happens to your bronzepulses when you use duralumin? If Zane had turned off his copper and turned on his Bronze just at the right moment that first time Vin managed to use duralumin, would he have seen her tin, bronze and pewter send out bronzepulses like tidal waves? Would they be unchanged? Would the pulses be different but not necessarily "bigger" or "louder", just modified in some other way?

[name_here]

I don't believe anyone is ever stated to flare copper. Everyone who makes use of it thinks it's absolute; Vin has a very strict need-to-know policy about high-end allomancy, and since she and Marsh were the only known super-seekers in the city no one else needed to know. Marsh probably didn't tell anyone due to Ruin's influence, since it's pretty clear he didn't explain Hemalurgy at all. For instance, we're pretty much certain he didn't have Allomantic gold and I'm pretty confident he did have Feruchemical gold.

 

I expect that duralumin pulses would change somehow. While I've previously commented that they don't seem to propogate like waves, the intensity might vary like one, in which case there are two possible outcomes, where it either increases the frequency or the amplitude. An amplitude increase would make them "louder" and be detectable from further away. A frequency shift would not increase propagation distance unless it really does act like a wave propagating through a medium. How it would be perceived  is an open question, although I'd be willing to bet it feels like a different and probably nonexistent metal.

[Araris Valerian]

Do we know if bronze works in a linear way? So if a coppercloud is between a seeker and the source of the bronze pulses, would the seeker still be able to sense the pulses? Based on the two other "cloud" metals we have, anything that enters a cloud is effected, but the effect is reversed to normal upon exiting the cloud.

[Oudeis]

Hrm, not sure. That could be a very good question to ask Brandon. We know so little about how bronze actually works.

[Mailliw73]

Storm all those people who assumed Bronze and Copper were simple. Why couldn't you have experimented for us?

[Oudeis]

Storm all those people who assumed Bronze and Copper were simple. Why couldn't you have experimented for us?

 

Per my theory, it's because Rashek knew that Bronze could expose his secrets, and thus stifled the Nobility and Ministry. Any Skaa Misting with an ounce of sense only practiced under a coppercloud, where obviously Seekers can't practice. Any Skaa Misting without an ounce of sense would've gotten caught by a Soothing station and killed. In short, The Lord Ruler successfully stifled nearly all human technological and allomantic advancement. He stifled this, too.

[Mailliw73]

Now I wish we had documentation of TLR's 1064 years to just experiment himself. We could know so much more.

[Swimmingly]

We do, kind of. He left the plates in the caches. Probably recorded all his allomantic tricks in copperminds, though... that would be quite a relic to recover, if anyone could find them and get around the feruchemical "thou shalt not use the Investiture of another" problem.

[Mailliw73]

Well, yeah, I meant like a omniscient observer who watched TLR experiment and wrote it down. Preservation, maybe?