Seeking and Smoking

[Moogle]

I actually asked Brandon about this at the Alloy of Law signing. He told me that because burning copper creates an Allomantic dead zone, so to speak, everything inside it is effectively silenced. This prevents pulses from reaching Seekers who are outside the cloud, but it also prevents anyone inside the cloud from receiving any pulses whatsoever. The reason Vin could do this is because of her earring.

 

There's something missing here. If copper creates a 'dead zone', then it should be impossible to sense anything, no matter how strong you are with bronze, because there is nothing to sense. This should also prevent malatium/gold/tin (potentially) from working, and we have evidence that this is not the case. Perhaps copper just 'dampens' pulses exponentially as your power increases, so the signals are still coming through, albeit more and more weakly, but in this case, Vin should be able to Seek while burning copper because of her earring, and Soothing should still be possible, but very weak. There is some weak evidence here that this is the case because TLR could Soothe Vin through her copper, but apparently Kelsier didn't feel anything when he burned copper, so I think that it's more that having a Hemalurgic spike makes you more vulnerable to Soothing.

 

I definitely support someone pinning down Brandon for specifics. I get the feeling the answer is going to be 'it's magic, don't ask', like bendalloy and cadmium somehow functioning when our world's physics apply.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Moogle

[name_here]

Just a few quick possibilities:

Vin can pierce one coppercloud, but barely - she has to concentrate to hear pulses, and her range probably goes down. She probably cannot pierce two of them, do her burning copper would effectively negate her piercing abilities , and make her Seeking only barely effective at most.

Seekers in posts- are we sure that they just sit in there, and are not, say, attached to station and patrolling about? The reason for coppercloud in station is to conceal constant Soothing, after all, and the position, not to make skaa Mistings feel safe ...

 

We actually had a discussion about multiple copperclouds before. I'm pretty sure they don't stack; there are two occasions where Vin detected a group of Allomancers containing two people who could burn copper. The first time she pierced a coppercloud was against Shan's kill team, which contained two Mistborn. And at the start of Well Of Ascension, she detects a team containing a Smoker and a Mistborn, although she doesn't keep it up during the fight itself.

 

The Soothing stations could go either way; on the one hand the Skaa were completely unaware of their existence, so Skaa Seekers must not have picked up on the station Seekers. On the other hand, the vast majority of Allomancers are not Seekers, so they wouldn't be able to realize that there was an active Seeker in the area when they blew their cover. If the Seekers can't operate from within the cloud, that would go a long way to explaining how any Skaa Allomancer used their powers outside of a coppercloud without being immediately arrested, since the Seekers wouldn't be able to provide 24/7 surveillance without giving away the secret. Even if they caught any Skaa Seeker who detected them, the general noble population would find out, and they're pretty bad at keeping matters secret from Skaa.

[Kurkistan]

We actually had a discussion about multiple copperclouds before. I'm pretty sure they don't stack; there are two occasions where Vin detected a group of Allomancers containing two people who could burn copper. The first time she pierced a coppercloud was against Shan's kill team, which contained two Mistborn. And at the start of Well Of Ascension, she detects a team containing a Smoker and a Mistborn, although she doesn't keep it up during the fight itself..

 

There would be no reason for both of them to burn copper. After all everyone knows that you can't pierce copperclouds...

 

And copperclouds do stack.

[Oudeis]

I'm re-reading chapter 10 right now of The Final Empire which is the scene of Breeze teaching Vin how to use emotional allomancy, and Vin specifically turned off her own copper so she could try Seeking Breeze (it didn't work because she realized a moment later they had another Smoker in the room). Maybe she was doing it because her own coppercloud would cover him, or maybe she just knew she couldn't burn bronze if she was also burning copper.

 

In case you're wondering, she wasn't doing it to actually feel the impact from him, because a few paragraphs later she does exactly that for that reason. It is a bit odd, there's really no specific reason given the first time, just "she turned off her copper and started burning bronze."

 

EDIT: because I forgot to write a clause that makes this make sense.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Darnam

[Kurkistan]

While I agree that even Vin likely can't Seek while she herself is burning copper, I don't think she knew about her copper-piercing at that point. So either way she'd want to turn it off to Seek.

 

If you're asking why she'd have copper on after figuring out there was a Smoker in the room: paranoia/not wanting her own emotions affected?

[Oudeis]

While I agree that even Vin likely can't Seek while she herself is burning copper, I don't think she knew about her copper-piercing at that point. So either way she'd want to turn it off to Seek.

 

If you're asking why she'd have copper on after figuring out there was a Smoker in the room: paranoia/not wanting her own emotions affected?

 

No no, she even expressly says that she's burning copper for the sole reason that she wants immunity to Soothing. And then it's a fascinating example of exactly what he's talking about when he gets her to carry his chair and she's stunned for a second, knowing she's immune to his allomancy and still feeling like doing it for him and ARGH HER BRAIN SHUTS DOWN and I really don't think people are in awe of Breeze as much as they should be...

 

What I meant was, Mr. Sanderson does not expressly say why she turned off her copper. It was just, "She turned off copper and burned bronze." She turned off copper, so he wouldn't be in her coppercloud? She turned off copper, because she knew you cannot Seek if you yourself are being Smoked? From the W's-o-B we've got, it seems like either or both could have been meant, and anyone can say "well I believe this to be true so I think it's what was meant" but there's literally nothing there, so no one can prove "he meant this, not that".

[thecatinthehat]

Would the Soothing Stations work if the Seekers in them were Steel Inquisitors? It would create a standard-type Coppercloud, which could not be pierced by an ordinary allomancer passing by, but would be pierced by the (Hemalurgically-empowered) Seeker inside, right?

Or maybe the effect is different when the Seeker and the Smoker are the same person than when they are two?

Edited November 2, 2013 by mdmilosz

[Mailliw73]

That might actually work. If we believe, and I do, that regular Seekers can't pierce regular Copperclouds but Hemalurgically-enhanced bronze allows you too, then the Inquisitors are the only real option I've heard so far. Except for the fact that Inquisitors aren't common and there are many Soothing stations around the city.

[Pechvarry]

My understanding was that copper effectively has 2 effects: self, and aura. Self blocks emotion manipulation and your own seeking, aura just blocks other seekers. If you could figure out how to block emotional allomancy on everyone in your bubble, it would probably smother their seeking abilities as well.

But I realize that's way less technical than most of you want.

[Mailliw73]

But, though it's possible to block emotional Allomancy for everyone in your cloud, it's very difficult and takes a lot of practice. So blocking Seeking would be the same.

[Claincy]

But, though it's possible to block emotional Allomancy for everyone in your cloud, it's very difficult and takes a lot of practice. So blocking Seeking would be the same.

Not quite sure what you are trying to say here. The wording suggests that you are saying that blocking seekers with a coppercloud is difficult. Which doesn't make any sense, so clearly I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say

 

Inquisitors would work, but, there is no way they would be used. There were around 20 inquisitors in the final empire with around half in Luthadel at any time, that isn't nearly enough to fill all the soothing stations. Especially as the inquisitors need a lot of rest, you would need 3 inquisitors to one soothing station to have one there seeking constantly and beyond that thare simply far too valuable to be wasted on duty at soothing stations. Aside from that, there was a lot of tension between the obligators and the inquisitors, unless ordered to by the lord Ruler (who didn't care about day to day management) they would not be helping out with the obligator run soothing stations.

 

One other note, Marsh did duty at a soothing station at least once before he became an inquisitor, so they plainly use normal seekers. He also would no doubt have mentioned if they used inquisitors.

[Mailliw73]

/>Not quite sure what you are trying to say here. The wording suggests that you are saying that blocking seekers with a coppercloud is difficult. Which doesn't make any sense, so clearly I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say

I meant that, if as Pech says, if you can block emotional Allomancy from others in the cloud, you can smother the people in the cloud's Seeking abilities too, that it would be very difficult as we have WoB that blocking Emotional Allomancy for everyone in the cloud is very hard. Does that make sense?

[Claincy]

I meant that, if as Pech says, if you can block emotional Allomancy from others in the cloud, you can smother the people in the cloud's Seeking abilities too, that it would be very difficult as we have WoB that blocking Emotional Allomancy for everyone in the cloud is very hard. Does that make sense?

I'm not sure. Maybe I'm just being thick. So you are saying that preventing anyone within the cloud from seeking would be a possible technique but very difficult, just like blocking emotional allomancy for everyone in the cloud is?

[Mailliw73]

Yes, that's what I was saying. Because Pechvarry shared his thoughts that maybe the two are related, I think that if they are, maybe they're both possible but difficult.

[Oudeis]

Yes, that's what I was saying. Because Pechvarry shared his thoughts that maybe the two are related, I think that if they are, maybe they're both possible but difficult.

 

So it seems that you're saying is this: What Brandon said was probably, "you cannot personally Seek and Smoke at the same time," but that simply being in someone else's cloud won't prevent you, personally, from Seeking (though anyone near you will, of course, be Smoked). Additionally, you seem to be saying that you believe a Smoker could, if he knew how and were very good, "Smother" a Seeker in his cloud, preventing the Seeker from Seeking, period.

 

Is my interpretation correct?

 

Additionally, I suppose Soothing stations have to be set up fairly specifically... the Smoker rather far back, the Soothers and Seeker right at the edge of his cloud, so the Smoker isn't accidentally hiding any Skaa Allomancers.

[Kurkistan]

Just to be clear on my feelings here:
 

So it seems that you're saying is this: What Brandon said was probably, "you cannot personally Seek and Smoke at the same time," but that simply being in someone else's cloud won't prevent you, personally, from Seeking (though anyone near you will, of course, be Smoked). Additionally, you seem to be saying that you believe a Smoker could, if he knew how and were very good, "Smother" a Seeker in his cloud, preventing the Seeker from Seeking, period.
 
Is my interpretation correct?

 
I'd like to note that this interpretation, if it is in fact what Mailliw is going for, is almost certainly inaccurate. Let me quote KChan from further up this very page:
 

I actually asked Brandon about this at the Alloy of Law signing. He told me that because burning copper creates an Allomantic dead zone, so to speak, everything inside it is effectively silenced. This prevents pulses from reaching Seekers who are outside the cloud, but it also prevents anyone inside the cloud from receiving any pulses whatsoever. The reason Vin could do this is because of her earring.
 
Now, because this was an informal setting and everyone present for this conversation was talking about a bunch of stuff basically one topic right after another, he might not have realized some of the logistical snafus this would cause, but for now, that's the official word on the matter. It might be a good idea to ask him for more details though, like how those issues would be dealt with. Perhaps bronze savants are able to sense pulses originating from outside of a coppercloud while being smoked themselves?

 

It's possible that Brandon would have clarified a bit if he'd thought through the implications on the spot, but it's still very clear from this that Smoked Seekers cannot themselves Seek.

 

Recall: We practically needed pliers to get Brandon to lay out that Smokers can potentially—with much intent, skill, and training—shield the emotions of others. If Smoking Seekers took the same level of skill, he'd have mentioned it.

Edited November 3, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Claincy]

Yes, that's what I was saying. Because Pechvarry shared his thoughts that maybe the two are related, I think that if they are, maybe they're both possible but difficult.

Ok, so I was reading your post right to start with, I just thought I wasn't.

 

As Kurkistan just pointed out preventing seekers from seeking inside a coppercloud is definitely the default situation. It is perhaps possible that a very experienced smoker could find a way to exclude a seeker from being smoked though I don't personally think this is the case.

Edited November 3, 2013 by lord_Ffnord

[Mailliw73]

That is the correct idea, Darnam. And Kurk, that's not what I believe, just my opinion on what Pech said. If what he said was true, then I think it is very hard. Personally, I think there must be some way to Seek from inside a Coppercloud.

[Kurkistan]

Okay, sorry for the misattribution.

[Oudeis]

I had a wild thought and I'm going to throw it out there. First, let me clarify that this is rampant speculation, so if anyone disagrees with me I'm not going to reply, as I have nothing to base this on besides flights of fancy.

 

Kelsier was a Mistborn, but he specialized in steel and iron, paired metals. Vin learned from him, and those were her best, too (apart from her hemalurgic boost to bronze). Spook started as a tineye and got pewter. When he did, he made much of their pairing, how they were connected. I rampantly speculate that when he was made the Lord Mistborn, he continued to specialize in those two metals. Shan Elariel, from what tiny scraps we know of her, seemed to specialized in emotional allomancy (and there's a character over at the Inquisition who is also a "griftborn"). It's gotten me thinking that perhaps Mistborn do tend to pick one pair of metals and specialize in them.

 

What, then, would a copper/bronze Mistborn be like?

 

The idea intrigues me, and I've been thinking about it for a bit. Someone please correct me if I'm mistaken, but the general sense I've gotten is that both of those metals are the ones with the widest cross-shardworld application. If so, the character would be most interesting as a worldhopper, or possibly someone transplanted to another world, or at the very least someone who deals with a lot of worldhoppers.

 

And here's where we turn the speculation up to 11.

 

Imagine the sort of things a cosmere-aware mistborn could do if he were amazing with copper and bronze. Finding Breath, maybe even Breath stored in a shirt. Knowing when someone is Lightweaving, perhaps even seeing through it. We know Inquisitors see with Ironsight, sensing the shape of objects that have only the most trace amount of metal in them. What if you could develop Bronzesight? What if this guy, when burning bronze, not only saw Sylphrena a la Rock, but could actually see her bond with Kaladin? If Shardplate has a cracked gemstone, parts of the armor will be weaker. Maybe he could see which bits will fail first. Perhaps he could see the true shape of a Forged object.

 

Sylphrena offered to end her Nahel bond with Kaladin, so we know it can end. She also said that flying far away to get the leaf for him would make her lose herself, so presumably the bond can be weakened at times by distance without damaging the underlying bond. What if copper could throw up some interference? Obviously not sever the bond, but what if he could make it feel for a few moments that Sylphrena was too far away to maintain the full power of the bond? In mid-battle, a few seconds of Kaladin being a much weaker Windrunner would be all you'd need. Or blanking out an Awakener's lifesense, or at least disguising himself from it. Shielding himself from effects of AonDor, the way some Dakhor monks can.

 

I am so going to fanfiction this guy. Can anyone suggest a name to me?

 

One final thought: If Hoid did swallow the bead of Lerasium (which I don't think he did), he'd really be the perfect person to use copper and bronze this way.

 

EDIT: Linking to a summation of a few additional thoughts over on this thread.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Darnam

[Pechvarry]

The problem with bronzesight is Scadrial's own applications: able to see if a metal chunk has a feruchemic or hemalurgic charge for example.

More terrifying: wouldn't you be able to see spiritwebs themselves? The bindpoints?

I think it would be flippin awesome, but there's enough investiture on Scadrial that it should've been discovered already.

[Mailliw73]

But most people dismiss Bronze and Copper as the weakest metals and only use them for their base purpose. I think Darnam's idea is very interesting.

[Kurkistan]

@Darnam

 

That's interesting, though note that no one really "sees" with Allomantic bronze, so it'd be a matter of really good "hearing" of pulses.

 

@Pech

 

Actually, Scadrial has relatively low amounts of Investiture floating around, cosmerically speaking.

[Oudeis]

The problem with bronzesight is Scadrial's own applications: able to see if a metal chunk has a feruchemic or hemalurgic charge for example.

More terrifying: wouldn't you be able to see spiritwebs themselves? The bindpoints?

I think it would be flippin awesome, but there's enough investiture on Scadrial that it should've been discovered already.

 

Can you rephrase the first sentence? I don't think I understand what you're saying. Re: bindpoints: Interesting. I had not thought of that.

 

I don't think I agree that it would have been discovered. In Classic Scadrial, allomancy was all but unknown. Since then, Rashek has been in charge. We know he spent a thousand years suppressing the very existence of aluminum as an allomantic metal, or electrum, which would be far more common, and he is deliberately keeping people in the dark about hemalurgy. It's a stretch, but not a huge one, to suggest that he might have discouraged investigation into bronze, and he'd've had motive if it could be used to aid hemalurgy. Even Marsh tells Vin that most other allomancers dismiss bronze.

 

But most people dismiss Bronze and Copper as the weakest metals and only use them for their base purpose. I think Darnam's idea is very interesting.

 

Thank you.

 

@Darnam

 

That's interesting, though note that no one really "sees" with Allomantic bronze, so it'd be a matter of really good "hearing" of pulses.

 

Yes, my phrasing was meant to highlight the precedent set by iron, I did not imagine it would be literal sight. My friend suggested that perhaps bronzedar would be more Cognitive or Spiritual than Physical. My example would be something like this: Let's say a Forger turned a Superman mug into a Batman mug. My Bronzeborn guy would look at it, and physically see a Batman mug, but he'd have a sense of awareness of it and know it was a Superman mug, or at least that it had been Forged. It would be a sensation like when someone says a few random words in a conversation that makes you think of a song, or when you can recall a bit of trivia but have no idea when or how you first learned it.

[Kurkistan]

Okay, just checking.

 

You might not be giving uber!Seeker enough credit, actually. Vin could detect Ruin and the Well and skilled Seekers (or Vin, when she cheat with Duralumin) can determine the exact emotions Rioters/Soothers are aiming at. I think an uber!Seeker could Bronze-ify at that mug and know immediately that it was Invested, and perhaps even some details about the type of its Investiture. All on the level of the conscious mind, rather than relying on intuitions.