The Nature of Copper

[Kurkistan]

I'm not sure I do get your point, given that I was supporting your argument against Claincy...

At this point I'm honestly unsure on what we're supposed to be disagreeing about.

As I said, the idea that Nalthians have a minute smidgen of a bit of extra life force is somewhat plausible. That still gets you to around the same average if you're not measuring things with an electron microscope.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Claincy]

Correct me if I am wrong here. But I believe Darnam and I were agreeing here. We were both saying that we think the Nalthians might have marginally more "life-force" (really need a better word).

 

Regarding that quote. It strongly implies similar levels, which no-one is disagreeing with. I don't think it says anything regarding minor differences. I've read your arguments there and you ascertain that it is entirely plausible that there is an exact equality, however there is little to prove whether that is the case or the (in my opinion) equally plausible marginal differences is the case.

 

So given that we all accept that either way is plausible we really are arguing a very minor point here. Short of directly asking Brandon I don't think we will get confirmation either way on this. (Oh and apologies for derailing your thread )

[Kurkistan]

I suppose we were talking at something of cross-purposes, then. 

 

I'm happy to let it lie, though I really don't have a leg to stand on so far as criticizing thread-derailment goes.

[Oudeis]

Yeah... I think that Kurk agreed with me but disagreed with Claincy, and I tried to stand up and agree with Claincy but wasn't being clear. And the thing, with the face, that goes.

 

Can't we all just get along?

[Robot Aztec]

Hey But one quesiton if you suck in all the investures dioesnt that make copper end negative because that seems weird if it is?

[Kurkistan]

@Darnam

 

Let us gather and sing. 

 

@Robot

 

As I clarified to Claincy, "absorb" isn't quite the right word.

 

Also, even if Allomantic copper was more absorbent than the regular brand, I wouldn't call it end-negative because of that. After all, Aluminum flat-out annihilates metal reserves without so much as a by-your-leave, and we aren't calling that end-negative.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Gloom]

I think the right word would be counter. If I understand all this mystical mumbo jumbo, your saying that it scatters or diffuses other types of investiture, but I think it really only scatters or diffuses certain types of investiture. I would say it could pretty much counter or diffuse (because I'm not willing to commit to either one) perceptual investiture. It can do those things and still be end positive and allow a strong enough Allomancer to break through. It wouldn't stop a Coinshot from actively using his power inside a copper cloud because the copper cloud because pushing steel isn't perceptual. It wouldn't stop a lashing, but it would stop a Stormrider from seeing what was going on. So yes, Life Sense would be a type of perceptual investiture as well.

Yeah, I know, I'm totally way off of what you were theorizing, but

Edited October 30, 2013 by Gloom

[Moogle]

I think the right word would be counter. If I understand all this mystical mumbo jumbo, your saying that it scatters or diffuses other types of investiture, but I think it really only scatters or diffuses certain types of investiture. I would say it could pretty much counter or diffuse (because I'm not willing to commit to either one) perceptual investiture. It can do those things and still be end positive and allow a strong enough Allomancer to break through. It wouldn't stop a Coinshot from actively using his power inside a copper cloud because the copper cloud because pushing steel isn't perceptual. It wouldn't stop a lashing, but it would stop a Stormrider from seeing what was going on. So yes, Life Sense would be a type of perceptual investiture as well.

Yeah, I know, I'm totally way off of what you were theorizing, but

 

What about tin?

[Kurkistan]

@Gloom

 

That's not too far off, I don't think. On reflection, I may have been a bit to broad in the OP.

 

Recall, though, that Allomantic copper also blocks emotional Allomancy, both for the Smoker and potentially everyone else in the cloud. Perhaps, then, instead of "perceptual" Investiture, we should talk about relatively weak Investiture and/or that which acts only on the Cognitive/Spiritual?

[Gloom]

How about extra sensory effects? Emotional and perceptual, they are both extra sensory in nature, or at least not physical in nature.

[Kurkistan]

I think that we're just saying "non-Physical" at that point.

[Moogle]

Here's some food for thought:

 

Vin burned copper while fighting The Lord Ruler. I strongly suspect that if it had some sort of Investiture-negating property that TLR wouldn't have been able to affect the metals inside her stomach quite as strongly. He's able to Soothe her a little despite the copper, and so I suspect he would have been able to only barely affect the metal in her.

 

There's also the issue that she used malatium while burning copper and did see the past-shadows of Rashek. I don't think those count as Physical, so I think there's issues with the theory that copper blocks non-Physical Allomancy.

 

Thoughts?

[Gloom]

That's why I suggested scattering or diffusion. If I throw a handful of rice in the air (scattering), I'm still likely to get rice in my hair. If I get shot in the chest while wearing a bulletproof vest (diffusion), I'm still going to feel an impact (but hopefully not a fatal one). It doesn't work perfectly. I think I like diffusion better because with diffusion your defenses can still theoretically be overwhelmed. The right type of bullet would still be able to punch through.

[Oudeis]

I had a thought today on how Copper and Bronze work, and why one is Pulling, and the other Pushing.

 

I've heard it suggested that everyone has an innate ability to 'sense' investiture. I agree. I've heard it said that this sense is what Bronze "pushes." I disagree.

 

I think Copper and Bronze work on your own innate Investiture.

 

Someone mentioned Tineyes blocking out the sounds of their own bodies. I think everyone, in theory, can feel the power of creation, but the biggest source for anyone is that which is inside of them. Even a Drab is a Child of Endowment, and has Investiture. We're told expressly that this is why you cannot Push on metals inside someone; it is their Investiture blocking your allomancy. I think everyone can feel investiture, at least a little, but you spend your whole life with one single voice shouting in your ear, the same thing over and over. You can feel changes in yourself (when you burn a metal, you feel a physical sensation of warmth which may or may not be literal), but that single voice is still so loud, you cannot hear anything coming from outside.

 

I think Bronze pushes on that sound. Pushes it down, deep inside of you, quieting the voice in your ear. For the first time ever, it's quiet enough that you can sense the pulses of those around you using Investiture. Ironically, this only pushes your innate Investiture; the Bronze itself is a 'power', and thus sets off its own bronzepulses.

 

This is going to be a common theme in my post, so wrap your head around it now; the idea that the "sound" of a person's innate Investiture is distinct from the "sound" you generate when you actively use a power.

 

What of the curious traits of Copper, then? If Bronze tamps down your innate Investiture, stowing it deep inside, what does Copper do? It swells your Investiture; it causes it to overflow.

 

How could that possibly block someone who could sense Investiture? Hey, this guy is healed by fire! Let's try throwing more fire at him! But think about it. We know everyone has innate Investiture. Yet Bronze cannot sense it. Vin has amazing Bronze, and she never once talks about how it lets her sense the bit of Preservation inside all Scadrians. It is the universe's white noise, a buzzing so constant your sense just tunes it out completely. It is the background. So you, the allomancer, burn Copper and send out pulses to let everyone know that you're burning Copper... yet at the same time, you, the person who has innate investiture, is cranking up your white-noise generator so loud no one can tell. Everyone near you is swamped in your own overflowing Investiture, drowning out their own music in a constant, undetectable buzzing.

 

Think of the world as a white canvas. Everyone who uses allomancy drops a spot of color... but you're a swelling fountain of white paint. People looking for color cannot tell "wow, there sure is more white than I expected". It's all just white.

 

But wait. How could this possibly explain how copper can block emotional allomancy? How it does it instinctively for the smoker, but can merely be learned how to do it for others? How could it stop other forms of investiture?

 

The fact that you even ask that question shows you don't fully appreciate how awesome Breeze is. I've heard it mentioned that Copper cannot block Iron or Steel, because emotional allomancy is a gentle feather-touch and the physical externals are a sledgehammer. Yet we've got proof that brass could take iron out behind the woodshed and show him who's boss.

 

What is steel's weakness? What metal can you not push on? That which pierces a living human body. Why? Because the innate Investiture of a body blocks steel.

 

What does zinc work on again? Oh, right, humans. Those chock-full-of-Investiture humans. Zinc punches right through a defense that has kept steel out since the dawn of time, still has enough control to administer a feather-light touch, and on its way out, flips off steel. Steel has to go play easy-mode, pushing on metal that has no Investiture with which to fight back, like a push-toy, while Brass is owning the ring in MMA.

 

Why does Copper stop emotional allomancy? Cuz emotional allomancy already has an uphill battle. It's fighting a human's innate Investiture... the very thing I suspect Copper pulls out. When you burn copper, you're finally overflowing with enough personal innate Investiture to keep out brass and zinc. I think copper can be used to protect others, when you find ways to direct your spare investiture heavily enough around them to block. For now, the over-flow which hides their pulses with your generic Investiture isn't strong enough.

 

A Smoker could direct this towards metal; she could smother metal in her own overflowing innate Investiture. However, that's now the first line of defense. A human is already resisting emotional allomancy, exactly the way humans resist the external physicals, the difference is that emotional allomancy punches through. A boost from copper is a boost to your own defenses. But metal? There's nothing there to help. Whatever copper does to a nail to block a Steelpush, that would be the only thing Steel would have to overcome. Would it be enough? Maybe; Steel's clearly not all that. But also maybe not.

 

I have further theories, but I'd like to see if anyone can poke holes in my foundation before I start to build on it.

[Kurkistan]

@Darnam

I'm glad to see your madness is bearing fruit, Darnam. Welcome to the club: It's always fun here.

 

Some thoughts (not necessarily full critiques of the theory or the like, just things to keep in mind):

 

I was the one to suggest the feather vs sledgehammer for emotional allomancy (and Tineye's blocking themselves out, actually: wow, I'm good ), and I'm not so sure that was the right tack now that I think more on it. It implies, as you discuss, that Allomantic copper can go around trying to block out Lurchers. Reading about "ripples" and "drum beats" and whatnot that are the side effect of using Investiture seems to suggest that Allomantic copper could just be operating on another level. That level could posibly include where power is used for emotional Allomancy, but maybe not where it's used for Physical or the like. Something to keep in mind.

 

Also, I question the extent to which this "white noise" is completely and utterly unremarked upon, especially when it's "upped" by Allomantic copper. Just because you live with the sound of the ocean all your life doesn't mean that you don't notice when a hurricane comes aknockin'.

 

Just trying to poke some holes and/or see to make sure you can fill them. I'll need to mull over the theory as a whole for a bit before I can do anything more.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Oudeis]

@Darnam

I'm glad to see your madness is bearing fruit, Darnam. Welcome to the club: It's always fun here.

 

It implies, as you discuss, that Allomantic copper can go around trying to block out Lurchers. Reading about "ripples" and "drum beats" and whatnot that are the side effect of using Investiture seems to suggest that Allomantic copper could just be operating on another level. That level could posibly include where power is used for emotional Allomancy, but maybe not where it's used for Physical or the like. Something to keep in mind.

 

Also, I question the extent to which this "white noise" is completely and utterly unremarked upon, especially when it's "upped" by Allomantic copper. Just because you live with the sound of the ocean all your life doesn't mean that you don't notice when a hurricane comes aknockin'.

 

First, don't ever link me to an FTL thread again. =D

 

Second, I see no reason why Copper might not affect Lurchers. I don't think any normal Smoker would ever have the power to do so, but a Mistborn burning it with Duralumin might. Do we have WoB that it can't? I know the MAG says Copper can block emotional allomancy for others in the cloud, and people seem to be going as though there is WoB that this is true, but I don't think I've ever seen it; does it exclude the ability to block lurchers categorically? I'll get into this more if anyone can find me the quote, for now I'm gonna focus on the bigger part of my theory.

 

The white noise.

 

If you'll pardon the criticism, I think you're fixated a bit on the idea that bronzepulses are sound. Both Kell and Vin mention that they feel like sound, but also like waves lapping against a shore. And in Vin's lesson with Marsh, she could tell that the pulses were coming from Kell, but she could also feel that they were "pulling". If a "sound" felt like it was going towards Kell, wouldn't it sound like it was coming from directly the other direction? Yet she's certain it's coming from Kell.

 

I think that bronzepulses are not directly analogous to any of the other five senses. I think this is part of what distinguishes it from iron; iron is purely a visual effect, and thus it was super-easy to figure out what else you can do with iron. Bronze defies the normal five senses, and Seekers try to describe it or maybe even experience it in terms of the senses they are more used to. Perhaps this would be the mark of one amazing Seeker; someone who let go of the notion that it was an analogy of his normal five senses and embraced it for what it truly was.

 

So yes, if innate investiture were simply white-noise, a Seeker would be able to tell if it suddenly got louder. But we know that's not the case. A Seeker can't 'hear' innate investiture, at all. If he could, it would be a life-sense. A barren mountaintop and a city full of non-Mistings both feel exactly the same to a Seeker, even though the difference would be far greater than the extra innate Investiture a Smoker would put out. And we know that humans do have innate investiture, since that's what blocks a Coinshot from pushing on metal inside a human, even one who isn't a Misting. So we know innate Investiture is a thing, and we know that however much of it there is, a Seeker cannot tell the difference between it and simple background. They can only tell when Investiture is channeled through allomancy (or other means).

 

There are animals that can only really 'see' movement. There are types of technology that can only pick up on color. In fact, some human eyeballs have trouble with color. So we get back to my white canvas analogy.

 

Think of the world as a white canvas. Everyone who walks on it is a blob of white paint. The "eye" looking at it can't tell the difference between white paint, and white canvas, which we know because Seekers actually cannot tell where people are. But when a Misting burns, they set off color. This color is what the Seeker notices (as pulses/physical sensation/sound/what-have-you). So that's what a Smoker does; floods the area with white. Suddenly the drops of color a Lurcher put off are drowned out.

 

Of course, this only makes the color fainter, not disappear. A normal Seeker has as much innate investiture as anyone; this is why he can't "hear" the bronzepulses without burning bronze. When you burn, you're tamping your own investiture down, but not all the way. We know this because Vin can do it better, so there must be different levels. So a Seeker pushes enough of his own Investiture out of his way to be able to "feel" those drops of color, but they don't have to be all that well hidden to hide from him. But then Vin comes along, with her double-bronze, and pushes away even more of her own Investiture. Suddenly she can "feel" oh hey, that spot of red is pale and almost washed away, but I can still see it and tell where it comes from.

 

I realize it's not a perfect analogy, but I think it matches what little we do know about how Bronze, Copper, and emotional allomancy work. And yes, frankly, it is rampant speculation.

[kinxer]

I'm not certain about the rules regarding thread necro'ing and revival, but I just read through this and feel like it wasn't adequately discussed.

I happen to agree with Outis' rampant speculation because it's a model that seems to work very well, and it just rings true for me.

If that is true, though, would that mean that Drab Smokers would be really weak and Awakeners would be (practically) impervious to emotional Allomancy? Or is Breath separate, in your (Outis') model, from innate Investiture?

[Oudeis]

There's a WoB that Breath is Innate Investiture.

 

It's very possible that the specific mechanics of BioChroma would have unforeseeable interactions with Allomancy. That said, if there is not any other complication... I definitely think that a Drab Smoker (which is gonna be rare anyway, since if I'm remembering correctly that would have to be the child of a Scadrian and a Nalthian, born on Nalthis) would be weaker than a typical Smoker. I wonder if that means a Drab Seeker would be more powerful...

 

To give you an analogy for why the Drab Smoker might be weaker, think of a Thug who lost a hand. He'd still have his power, he'd still be strong and still be able to do all manner of things with his power... but he's still not going to be as effective a fighter as a Thug with a whole body. That kind of trauma would affect much more than just your hand, especially if we're considering medicine at the time of the Final Empire. For a more extreme example, a paraplegic. However strong you are, there will be a limit to how well you can brace yourself. Similarly, a Smoker with a handicapped Innated Investiture might be less effective than one with a Breath.

 

Would many Breaths protect you from emotional allomancy? It's possible. I'm gonna mull it over, but for now I'm saying that by my model, yes. Many Breaths would protect you from the effects of Emotional Allomancy, based on Mr. Sanderson's telling us that Breath is Innate Investiture.

[shinigamisid]

I've been having some thoughts on Allomantic copper over the months, so I thought it an appropriate time to share my findings.

 

First, most of the relevant evidence that is out there.

 

Evidence:

 

Copperclouds stack:

-Two Smokers burning in proximity to each other will create a more powerful cloud more resistant to piercing.

 

Feruchemy can be Seeked:

 

Seekers detect the power of creation being used:

 

Seekers can detect non-Scadrian magic:

 

If you are Smoked, you can't Seek

-Which means that Seekers can't detect anything when under a cloud.

 

Deductions:

 

The takeaway here is that Brandon has managed to accidentally confirm that Smokers block out all types of Investiture. The fact that Seekers can detect other magics, tied in with the fact that they can't detect anything when Smoked, nails this down despite the RAFO.

 

EDIT: Actually, it's not quite 100%, now that Claincy mentions it I think about it. Technically, a Seeker could be uniquely affected by being Smoked, which affect is unique and separate from the reason why he can't sense other Allomancers who are themselves in Copperclouds. I find that a somewhat arbitrary and inconsistent way for copperclouds to work, but it is a possibility.

 

It also tells us that "life sense" works on the same level as other magic. Other magic which is "the power of creation". This ties the "Spirituality" of life sense to that of Investiture: if we can decide one, that gives us a firm clue as to the other.

 

Copper's universality also narrows down the range of ways that it can work: Now it has to not only block out Allomancy's ripples, but those of all Investiture. It can no longer be posited that Copper somehow uniquely interacts with Allomancers to disrupt Seeking.

 

I also think this lends some additional credence to a rather off-the-cuff theory on this that I've been espousing for a bit now.

 

Main theory: (pirated from another post of mine)

 

Note: This is mostly speculative, though I think it highly plausible. If you want, just ignore this and go about your day happy with the knowledge that Allomantic copper blocks out at least the ripples of all Investiture.

 

Copper is weird. In fact, based on its weirdness, I hereby posit that talk of "clouds" is, in fact, highly misleading for how copper actually works.

Given that we know that copper can absorb/negate the Investiture of Rioters/Soothers aiming at the Smoker, as well potentially shield the emotions of others, what if copper actually actively absorbs Investiture, rather than masking it? So the Investiture aimed at a Smoker is absorbed because it's right in the middle of the cloud and/or he automatically defends himself with his absorption-powers, while the "ripples" that Seekers detect are actually comprised of energy themselves, energy which the Smoker can take in and counteract with his own copper-fueled energy, to an extent. So a skilled Smoker would be able to consciously extend the scope of his absorption to include Rioting/Soothing directed at others.

This seems to solve a bit of weirdness, since Copper is supposed to be both internal and pulling, yet doesn't seem to do either when you think of a Smoker as actually establishing some miasma of negation, rather than the Smoker's range simply being a measure of how far out he's reaching to absorb stuff. This is backed up, to some extent, to how burning Copper "feels" to Vin: "Vin [burned copper]. The only change was a was a slight feeling of vibration within her" (Final Empire).

 

The Copper, then, seems to change Vin's nature such that she acts against the pulses in the fabric of the universe around her, the same pulses that Bronze detects. This counter-action is not perfect, though, as ripples seem to remain, and her own Copper-burning creates its own ripple that cloud-piercers can detect.

"Piercing" a coppercloud, it seems, is thus simply a matter of reading whatever left-overs the Smoker isn't strong enough to eliminate. Pulses that Vin detects through clouds are described in the book as "muffled", and so this would explain that.

If copper absorbs Investiture, where does the absorbed Investiture go? Definitely not the Smoker. Because, he can't use the Investiture, and it would go to waste. It's like energy is being wasted. This disturbs the Balance, I think.

 

Also, if it absorbs Investiture, how can you still use Allomancy within a Coppercloud? Sure, you can't Soothe or Riot emotions, but you can still Steelpush and Ironpull, can't you?

[Kurkistan]

I was kind of more going for cancellation like conflicting waves than strict absorption, but even if that's not how it works I don't really see any great need to maintain "the Balance" in Allomancy. Harmony's the one who's all caught up on that, not his magic systems.

 

--

 

Talking about steel/iron is an interesting angle. To take a guess, I'd say the most plausible explanation would either be "well as it turns out you can block steel/iron lines, it's just not the default use for copper and takes some finagling", "no, that's on a far far higher power level than just cancelling some ripples that bronze would detect", or "steel/iron work on a different principle."

 

Also:

[shinigamisid]

I was kind of more going for cancellation like conflicting waves than strict absorption, but even if that's not how it works I don't really see any great need to maintain "the Balance" in Allomancy. Harmony's the one who's all caught up on that, not his magic systems.

 

--

 

Talking about steel/iron is an interesting angle. To take a guess, I'd say the most plausible explanation would either be "well as it turns out you can block steel/iron lines, it's just not the default use for copper and takes some finagling", "no, that's on a far far higher power level than just cancelling some ripples that bronze would detect", or "steel/iron work on a different principle."

 

Also:

Necro Post.jpg

I think the Balance is necessary for any Investiture in the cosmere. Take atium, for instance. When you burn atium, it doesn't just vanish. It returns to the Pits of Hathsin. The Balance also explains why Preservation was "weaker" than Ruin. Preservation used part of his consciousness to imprison Ruin, so that power was lost. Even in Warbreaker, Breath (if the person doesn't give it to anyone else) after a person's death returns to Endowment.

--

Well, your first explanation makes sense, but how can you do the same for tin and pewter then? Unlike steel, brass, zinc and iron, they're internal metals. So, you'd have to absorb power directly from the Mistborn, which I think isn't possible, probably unless you use Hemalurgy.

[DrakeMarshall]

Three years later... I'm just going to point out that perhaps it isn't so much about magnitude, as illustrated in the feather and sledgehammer analogy... Maybe it has more to do with realmatics. It seems to block cognitive abilities, not weak ones. I would venture to say that copper creates a sort of interference field like a radio disruptor might, but in the cognitive realm. And that it does not do so in the physical realm because it doesn't block iron pulling, and that it does not do so in the spiritual realm because it doesn't block atium.

Burning a metal would be rather visible in the cognitive realm, because you aren't even using magic so much as tapping into the powers of a colossal external shard. I imagine that this is why feruchemy is much harder to detect with bronze, because it is much more internal. Surgebinding is probably also harder to detect, but likely easier to detect than feruchemy since stormlight is a bit more exotic of a type of investiture than, say, weight. It stands to reason that most types of magic use can be noticed if you are listening for them in the cognitive realm (ie burning copper), because pretty much any investiture is probably going to be observable in some form in the cognitive realm, especially if it is being actively moved around / changed / put to use.

By this theory, a coppercloud wouldn't block a windrunner from using the lashings... But it might at least make it more difficult for an elsecaller to use either of their abilities. Depending on whether life sense is spiritual or cognitive, it may or may not block life sense. If this is the case, it would likely also block things like kelsier's cognitive shadow from occupying your location, and even maybe make it harder for a shard to communicate with you. It would not however outright negate many types of magic that directly impact the physical realm. Bronze could probably detect something like awakening or surgebinding, but would probably be a lot better at detecting things like allomancy and AonDor, both of which draw on external forces to produce effects.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Drake Marshall

[Hollow_the_edgdncr]

 

On 10/28/2013 at 0:04 PM, Kurkistan said:

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Copperclouds stack:
-Two Smokers burning in proximity to each other will create a more powerful cloud more resistant to piercing.
 
Feruchemy can be Seeked:

 
Seekers detect the power of creation being used:

 

Seekers can detect non-Scadrian magic:

 
If you are Smoked, you can't Seek
-Which means that Seekers can't detect anything when under a cloud.

Given that we know that copper can absorb/negate the Investiture of Rioters/Soothers aiming at the Smoker, as well potentially shield the emotions of others, what if copper actually actively absorbs Investiture, rather than masking it? So the Investiture aimed at a Smoker is absorbed because it's right in the middle of the cloud and/or he automatically defends himself with his absorption-powers, while the "ripples" that Seekers detect are actually comprised of energy themselves, energy which the Smoker can take in and counteract with his own copper-fueled energy, to an extent. So a skilled Smoker would be able to consciously extend the scope of his absorption to include Rioting/Soothing directed at others.

A good question is could a smoker concentrate all of the absorption on to themselves and be more resistant to copper cloud peircing

[Fezzik]

New record for oldest necro! Given that this thread was created before even Words of Radiance came out, it is really old, so if you want to discuss the particulars of how copperclouds work, best do it in a new thread.