The Nature of Copper

[Kurkistan]

I've been having some thoughts on Allomantic copper over the months, so I thought it an appropriate time to share my findings.

 

First, most of the relevant evidence that is out there.

 

Evidence:
 

Copperclouds stack:
-Two Smokers burning in proximity to each other will create a more powerful cloud more resistant to piercing.
 
Feruchemy can be Seeked:

We asked if it was possible to use bronze to Seek Feruchemy. He said it could be possible. If it were to happen, it was very hard, because the Inquisitors would desperately like to be able to find Feruchemists that way, and it was implied they had not discovered this power. So, it is a freaking hard technique to learn, if possible at all.

 
Seekers detect the power of creation being used:

QARLIN
Why did Ruin give off Allomantic Pulses? Because Preservation did and they're two sides of the same coin? Allomancy is of Preservation, so I figured that's why he did...
 
BRANDON SANDERSON
Manifestation of the awesome power he held, mixed with Vin's increased ability to sense these things. Allomantic pulses are like a ripple of sound in the fabric of creation itself—the power of creation being used, creating a drum beat to those attuned to it. Ruin created a similar beat when his consciousness was near.

 

Seekers can detect non-Scadrian magic:

Argent: Could a Seeker who was properly trained and experienced detect AonDor or Awakening? Similarly, does a Coppercloud block an Awakener's life sense?
 
Brandon: A Seeker could sense somebody else using magic not native Scadrial. RAFO on the Coppercloud blocking similar magic.

 
If you are Smoked, you can't Seek
-Which means that Seekers can't detect anything when under a cloud.

 

Deductions:
 
The takeaway here is that Brandon has managed to accidentally confirm that Smokers block out all types of Investiture. The fact that Seekers can detect other magics, tied in with the fact that they can't detect anything when Smoked, nails this down despite the RAFO.

 

EDIT: Actually, it's not quite 100%, now that Claincy mentions it I think about it. Technically, a Seeker could be uniquely affected by being Smoked, which affect is unique and separate from the reason why he can't sense other Allomancers who are themselves in Copperclouds. I find that a somewhat arbitrary and inconsistent way for copperclouds to work, but it is a possibility.

 

It also tells us that "life sense" works on the same level as other magic. Other magic which is "the power of creation". This ties the "Spirituality" of life sense to that of Investiture: if we can decide one, that gives us a firm clue as to the other.

 

Copper's universality also narrows down the range of ways that it can work: Now it has to not only block out Allomancy's ripples, but those of all Investiture. It can no longer be posited that Copper somehow uniquely interacts with Allomancers to disrupt Seeking.

 

I also think this lends some additional credence to a rather off-the-cuff theory on this that I've been espousing for a bit now.

 

Main theory: (pirated from another post of mine)

 

Note: This is mostly speculative, though I think it highly plausible. If you want, just ignore this and go about your day happy with the knowledge that Allomantic copper blocks out at least the ripples of all Investiture.

 

Copper is weird. In fact, based on its weirdness, I hereby posit that talk of "clouds" is, in fact, highly misleading for how copper actually works.

Given that we know that copper can absorb/negate the Investiture of Rioters/Soothers aiming at the Smoker, as well potentially shield the emotions of others, what if copper actually actively absorbs Investiture, rather than masking it? So the Investiture aimed at a Smoker is absorbed because it's right in the middle of the cloud and/or he automatically defends himself with his absorption-powers, while the "ripples" that Seekers detect are actually comprised of energy themselves, energy which the Smoker can take in and counteract with his own copper-fueled energy, to an extent. So a skilled Smoker would be able to consciously extend the scope of his absorption to include Rioting/Soothing directed at others.

This seems to solve a bit of weirdness, since Copper is supposed to be both internal and pulling, yet doesn't seem to do either when you think of a Smoker as actually establishing some miasma of negation, rather than the Smoker's range simply being a measure of how far out he's reaching to absorb stuff. This is backed up, to some extent, to how burning Copper "feels" to Vin: "Vin [burned copper]. The only change was a was a slight feeling of vibration within her" (Final Empire).

 

The Copper, then, seems to change Vin's nature such that she acts against the pulses in the fabric of the universe around her, the same pulses that Bronze detects. This counter-action is not perfect, though, as ripples seem to remain, and her own Copper-burning creates its own ripple that cloud-piercers can detect.

"Piercing" a coppercloud, it seems, is thus simply a matter of reading whatever left-overs the Smoker isn't strong enough to eliminate. Pulses that Vin detects through clouds are described in the book as "muffled", and so this would explain that.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Gloom]

Oops, hit "Enter" by accident. Come back in an hour or two for the actual theory.

 

I think it's a great theory already. Not sure it needs anything else .

[Kurkistan]

I think it's a great theory already. Not sure it needs anything else .

 

You know what, I thought so too. I was just about to delete my "real" post, but I pushed 'Enter' by accident again! 

[Claincy]

Reaction to the initial post. A one line theory post? Who are you? Because you can't be Kurkistan

 

More seriously:

-I agree that smokers block all types of investiture however your logic is a tad unsound here. It is strongly implied by those facts, not proved. There is a difference between the seeker being smoked and the, say, surgebinder that they are seeking being smoked.

 

Beyond that I like this theory. A couple of things it makes me wonder:

-Does it in any way use the investiture it draws in. AKA could a smoker who was covering several actively burning allomancers continue burning for marginally longer than if they weren't covering any? (Assuming they had the same amount of metal to start with.) A better example would be with someone trying to sooth them.

 

-This theory creates an interesting idea regarding bronze. Bronze is a pushing metal, sure, so it allows you to sense what you would not have been able to otherwise. But wait, when you think about it, how is that really pushing anything? So I propose that all humans have some innate ability to sense investiture and bronze pushes that to a point of being actually useful and noticeable.

[Kurkistan]

You're right that it's not 100%. I threw in a disclaimer just now.

 

Also, thinking of it, I'm not sure that "absorb" was the best word, as it implies an additive quality. I think of it more like the Smoker "vibrating" as the inverse of the waves s/he wants to counteract.

 

On Allomantic bronze:

 

Interesting thought. Backed up by the fact that Vin got to the point where she heard the Well without burning Bronze. Now this could be because she was "attuned" to it, or it could be that the faculty which she used to detect the Well was attuned to it.

[Claincy]

A test I would really like to do now. If you put an awakener in a coppercloud can they still sense people through their biochromatic auras?

That could really help with this.

[Kurkistan]

Yeah, that'd do it.

 

Actually, I want to know

 

Steelhunt

Whether Kokerlii (the Aviar who shields Sixth from mental detection) would block either an Awakener or a Seeker. That'd nail the whole lot of them down as relying on the same basic principles, and I think we have pretty firm evidence that "life sense" is almost purely Spiritual, so that nails these "ripples" as Spiritual as well. And it would tickle my fancy.

[Claincy]

Yes! Yes that would be very good to know. I would also like to know if, assuming my theory of innate investiture-sense was correct, it was possible for hemalurgy to steal investiture-sense. If so you could potentially spike a LOT of people to make someone who was essentially a seeker who didn't need to burn bronze and didn't give off allomantic pulses. (Having more inestiture than an ordinary person they would be easier to sense than normal, but not nearly as easy as allomancy.)

 

On a bit of a tangent, it really shouldn't be "life-sense", so much as an "investiture-sense", oh well.

Edited October 28, 2013 by lord_Ffnord

[Oudeis]

A test I would really like to do now. If you put an awakener in a coppercloud can they still sense people through their biochromatic auras?

That could really help with this.

 

 

I was wondering this; it is an odd way that an Awakener might be uniquely suited to sensing a Smoker. If you've got your life-sense going, and suddenly a massive group of people to your right suddenly seem like Drabs to your life-sense, congratulations. Someone is Smoking nearby.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Darnam

[Claincy]

I was wondering this; it is an odd way that an Awakener might be uniquely suited to sensing a Smoker. If you've got your life-sense going, and suddenly a massive group of people to your ride suddenly seem like Drabs to your life-sense, congratulations. Someone is Smoking nearby.

That or someone just killed a large number of people almost instantly, in which case you should run Given that a drab is completely undetectable through life-sense so this would feel the same.

[Moogle]

A good theory, but if Allomantic copper blocks or otherwise nullifies Investiture, why can Vin burn copper and Push things with steel? Something seems off about it 'absorbing' or 'countering' Investiture. It blocks emotional manipulation, after all. Am I alone in thinking this is a contradiction?

[Kurkistan]

@Claincy

 

Remember that there might not even be an "investiture sense." It's not like Iron enhances your innate ability to Pull on metal, or Brass your innate ability to manipulate emotions with your brain. It's a cool idea, but by no means guaranteed.

 

@Darnam/Claincy

 

Another good method is for a Seeker to just walk around with another Allomancer who's burning anything. If you detect their pulses, then you know that you're not in a cloud.

 

Really, I think that Seekers actually just "tune out" their own pulses (like how Tineye's likely tune out their own bodies' sounds), and could learn to listen to themselves if they worked at it. So a Seeker could do the job by himself, I think.

 

@Moogle

 

A good question to raise, but one that I think is fairly easy to answer.

 

There's Investiture, and then there's Investiture. With pulses and emotional allomancy, we're talking about feather-touches that are only detectable in the Spiritual or maybe Cognitive. If those two are feathers, then Iron Allomancy is a sledghammer.

[Mailliw73]

Wait, so has no regular Seeker ever heard the pulsings of a Smoker?

Variation on the classic Tree in a Forest question:) :If a Smoker burns copper and the Seeker can't pierce the Coppercloud, does the Smoker pulse at all?

[Kurkistan]

Answer to the question: Yes.

 

Vin "hears" Clubs when she's kandra-scouting, so I would say that he's always still sending off the pulse to anyone sensitive enough to sense it.

 

EDIT: Though, to be fair, there was a fair amount of discussion about "ping" theories of Allomantic bronze over on the other thread. In that case, the answer could be "no". I hate that question.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Claincy]

@Kurkistan, I'm not trying to take my theory as fact or anything. My problem with the name "life-sense" is a separate, though related, thing. If it was a true "life-sense" it should be diminished on drabs, but it should still detect them as they are still living creatures. But it doesn't. So, I would prefer to call it an "investiture sense" or a "breath sense" if you prefer. As this is the true difference.

 

This "investiture sense" would functionally be very similar to the one in my theory, but doesn't require it to exist. Sorry for the confusion.

[Kurkistan]

I didn't misunderstand you, though looking back I see that it looks like a I did. 

 

I get that you were talking about different things with how life sense worked (detecting Breath, as it would seem) as opposed to how "normal" "sensing of Investiture" would work. And it's even plausible that normal people are able to detect Investiture on some level.

 

I was just making sure that we were on the same page so far as the strength of our beliefs go.

 

EDIT: Although...

 

We might need to have a discussion about the nature of "breath sense" as relates to the "natural" life-sensing abilities of humans in the rest of the cosmere. Would a Scadrian be able to "sense" a drab? An Awakener a Duralumin ferring?

Edited October 29, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Moogle]

@Moogle

 

A good question to raise, but one that I think is fairly easy to answer.

 

There's Investiture, and then there's Investiture. With pulses and emotional allomancy, we're talking about feather-touches that are only detectable in the Spiritual or maybe Cognitive. If those two are feathers, then Iron Allomancy is a sledghammer.

 

But that's a huge issue, and makes copper incredibly weak. If copper can only block emotional Allomancy because it's a feather-touch, and can't block iron or steel because it's a sledgehammer, then it surely can't block Surgebinding or Awakening. Why would Brandon bother RAFOing the interactions if they weren't going to matter, ultimately?

 

I think there's other issues with your theory because of how copper can be used to shield the emotions of others only if you figure out how. If the copper just creates a mini-black hole sort of deal for Investiture, wouldn't that mean it should shield the emotions of others (or at least dull the influence of the Soother or Rioter) by default? All the emotional Allomancy would sort of just be canceled out by the copper, meaning no one could be affected (or else the effect would be dulled) inside in the bubble. I also am not sure that emotional Allomancy is less powerful or a 'feather-touch' compared to Pushing. Has Brandon said something along those lines? I would guess the metals all have the same amount of 'power' or Investiture (except for atium and lerasium, naturally).

 

I think there's something very important hidden in the fact that copper by default does not block emotional Allomancy within its 'cloud' radius, and also that it doesn't block Pushing or Pulling. I think your theory is on the right track, but I'm just not comfortable with the things it fails to explain.

[Claincy]

I didn't misunderstand you, though looking back I see that it looks like a I did. 

 

I get that you were talking about different things with how life sense worked (detecting Breath, as it would seem) as opposed to how "normal" "sensing of Investiture" would work. And it's even plausible that normal people are able to detect Investiture on some level.

 

I was just making sure that we were on the same page so far as the strength of our beliefs go.

 

EDIT: Although...

 

We might need to have a discussion about the nature of "breath sense" as relates to the "natural" life-sensing abilities of humans in the rest of the cosmere. Would a Scadrian be able to "sense" a drab? An Awakener a Duralumin ferring?

Ok, so I was the confuzzled one.

 

I would say that a scadrian would not be able to sense a drab by my theory. i would also note though that a normal Scadrian would also be unable to sense someone with 1 breath to any meaningful degree. I would guess that an awakener could sense any Scadrian, allomancer or otherwise though a non-allomancer/someone who wasn't burning anything would probably be harder to sense/feel fainter than a normal Nalthian. By my theory the "life-sense" of the awakeners is basically a stronger and more directed version of the innate "investiture sense" that other humans have.</blatant conjecture>

[Kurkistan]

@Moogle

 

The interactions certainly matter so far as detection goes. It matters whether a Seeker can detect you, or any other "detection" magic.

 

You make several good points, Moogle, and I may well have been too fast to dismiss your first post. I need to think on this...

 

EDIT: @Claincy

 

NINJAA!!! 

 

I think we may need to rather violently disagree here, then. I would hold that the "life sense" of 1-Breath Nalthians is exactly the same as that of any person on any other shardworld. Brandon modeled it after the fact that people in the real world feel like they can "sense" others' presences, and I doubt for artistically-related reasons that Brandon would ever have the entire population of one of his worlds (read: Nalthis) be inherently different from that of the others, let alone strictly better.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Claincy]

I had thought that a Nalthian with a breath was marginally more alive/(insert better word) than humans on other worlds. So that their basic investiture was slightly stronger, but easier to remove. I could naturally be completely wrong on that. I don't think we have any WoB either way.

[Kurkistan]

The discussion I linked to investigates that question. We do have a bit of WoB, though its meaning is contested.

[Oudeis]

I had thought that a Nalthian with a breath was marginally more alive/(insert better word) than humans on other worlds. So that their basic investiture was slightly stronger, but easier to remove. I could naturally be completely wrong on that. I don't think we have any WoB either way.

 

This was my general sense. Basically here's how I think it goes: A normal human from Scadrial has a certain amount of natural "life force," for the sake of this concept I'm just going to call it an aura, I know it's inaccurate but that's not the point. A normal human born on Nalthis has Breath. Here's how I think it goes. Let's say one big part of your aura (80%, just to throw a number out there) is stuck with you until someone rips it out with hemalurgy. But 20% of your "aura" is what we know as Breath. But here's my thought. I think that takes something extra. I think that Endowment does in fact "endow" literally everyone on Nalthis with a touch of power, just the amount required to gift-wrap up the portion of your aura that turns it into a Breath. Let's say it's the equivalent of 1% of your aura.

 

So, that's my thought. A Drab would have 80% aura. A normal person on Scadrial will have 100%. A normal person on Nalthis would be at 101%. Just the tiniest smidgeon more. Prolly undetectable unless someone was at CRAZY high Heightening, and even then only if you're seriously paying attention (and even then my personal theory is that there's a variance, let's say out to +/-3%, in any given person's aura, so someone from Scadrial with a strong aura could have much more naturally than a weak Nalthian, even if neither has any other investiture).

 

So, are Nalthians all inherently superior to people of other worlds? According to my speculation, technically yes, by about a quantum. And in order for any of them to have any real usable local Investiture, several hundred of them have to sacrifice a whole lot more than the bit they're naturally 'superior' by.

 

Just my two clearchips.

[Claincy]

@Kurk, I really don't see that quote as leaning either way on this.

 

@Darnam, There is a definite variance in the strength of Nalthian's breaths,

"She is quite healthy," the healer said to Bluefingers. "And most likely still a maiden. She also has a very strong breath."

Warbreaker chapter 6

 

I think this supports the idea of people in general having different strength life-forces, which I personally think is correct. I don't see it as being likely that every person in the cosmere has the exact same degree of "life-force".

[Kurkistan]

@Darnam

 

An interesting theory. It might even be true, under some interpretations of this quote:

 

Source:

Shardlet: If a Scadrian allomancer had a baby with a Nalthian (and the baby was born on Nalthis), could the baby have an original Breath and also be a Natural allomancer?

Brandon:  It could happen, the baby would have a bit of Preservation and a bit of Endowment.

 

@Claincy

 

I think we're all fine with various people having varying levels of life force: it's just that the fluctuation should center around the same value no matter what planet you're on. So the average Nalthian is just a "lifey" as the average Scadrian

 

As to the WoB: I find it to be fairly strongly implying an equality of life force, myself. I linked to that thread instead of the quote in the interview database because directly after Voidus' post we go on to have a discussion about the quote's meaning. I think I rather handily "won" that discussion, if I do say so.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Oudeis]

I think we're all fine with various people having varying levels of life force: it's just that the fluctuation should center around the same value no matter what planet you're on. So the average Nalthian is just a "lifey" as the average Scadrian

 

The quote states that everyone has life force, not that all life force is equal. Also, who says it's a benefit to have more? There's a lot of reasons to think that tall people have a lot of advantages in life, but try fitting in an airplane, and don't get me started on heart conditions. People on Nalthis might have a touch more life-force; maybe that makes them a better target, like how a tree with the ripest, biggest apples is going to have them harvested first (yes, I know in the wild the point of an apple is to get some animal to eat it, but on a farm when it just means someone's gonna bash you with a ladder it's less of an advantage. I'm terrible at analogies anyway, but hopefully you get my underlying point).