The Diaemus Project

[Edgedancer]

Might I throw in one last point about what bugs me with the microorganism idea? Namely it seems like a concept biased from a viewpoint based within evolution on earth, aka. these races would have evolved essentially like on earth and then adapted to the magic. However, unless this setting was artifically created I have problems seeing that because life shouldn't have evolved mainly as on earth but it should have evolved as on Diaemus and on Diaemus microorganism (meaning organic lifeforms) can create magic, so what happened?

Did the magic stuff evolve, even though it had no advantage from it whatsoever and did so long before life was capable of actually entering a symbiosis to support it, did they get an advantage for it but for some reason evolution didn't follow survival of the fittest and the not magical part of life evolved or did the magical part of life evolve but then lost its ability to metabolize raw magic, even though there was no better alternative?
To put it into perspective, this is like all the (higher) creatures on earth not being able to drink water directly, so they first have to fish these weird things out of the water, squeeze some kind of liquid out of them and then drink that. Case in point, we didn't evolve with such an extra link in our ecosystem.

I'd vote that if you guys want to keep something like this, then we at least make them more seperated from biology/evolution and make them entirely magical in nature. Although to be fair, given that we are on a Sanderson fan-site I have a hard time not thinking of these things as a blander/less cohesive version of Spren already, they even have the luminescent glow of Stormlight.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Edgedancer

[Young Bard]

@Mailliw: Do you still want mountains in your area, or not? (I know the general area you're talking about, I just need to sort out details.)

[Sir Jerric]

@Sera: Thank you for the detailed replies. Now that I have a better handle on our mutual experience levels, I'll make some more direct responses. I prefer the question-based approach, but with this long of posts, trying to clarify by roundabout is going to take a huge amount of time (and I'm supposed to be detailing coastlines ). So I hope you'll forgive me if any of the following reads in an aggressive tone, and please know that you are welcome to call me on any errors I make. After all, "Yay! Feedback!"

No problem!
 
First question: It would look like my second picture, upside-down. I'm calling it "inverted", but saying it's a tilt greater than 90º would be more accurate. Earth's tilt is 23.4º, to get the upside down equivalent the tilt would be 156.6º (180º, which is half circle, minus 23.4º). Instead of wobbling at the top, the planet would wobble at the bottom.
 
(Note: Since this world is fictional you kinda get to pick where your North and South are, so don't worry about ending with the continent in the Northern Hemisphere when working on the axis, just pretend it was the Southern Hemisphere all along. =P)

Any object suspended by the pull of gravity is going to wobble at its center of mass. The axis in your picture is imaginary on a planet, nor does it have a surface on which to dance.

 

Even disregarding that, the northern hemisphere has summer when the north pole tilts toward the sun (as shown here). If we wobble the axis to tilt the opposite way at every point in the orbit, the effect is a reverse of the seasons (as shown here).

 

I personally pick "Sun rises in the east" and layout the compass from there. Magnets don't define things well enough, since the magnetic polarity of a planet is independent of its spin (Earth's polarity is expected to switch at some uncertain interval.). As drawn, this is definitely a southern continent.
 

Second question: You're correct. Biomes with similar climate, animals and plants can still vary a lot. E.g.: The tropical forests from Brazil are nothing like the ones from Malasya, the height of trees, the size of animals, the predators and critters, they're all different. You can still have a hell of a lot of fun with ecosystems after picking a given temperature/moisture.

Right, right. Good, good. You have a handle on this subject.
 

Third question: If my geographic knowledge doesn't fail me, Capricorn (southern, hotter) crosses a wider stretch of ocean, and Cancer crosses more continuous land.

Right again. Why was that important?
 

Fourth question: Again, if I'm not wrong, the tropics position depend on your planetary axial tilt; they're linked to the solstices. My lazyass solution to trace a tropic would see where the sun rays hit the planet at a 90º angle when the planet is in solstice position (perfectly tilted in relation to the sun). (Example)
 
The opposite tropic will be a mirrored version of your tropic 01. If you're going to use that trick, for the sake of simplicity consider all the sun rays as horizontal lines, not a radial-shaped emission.

Right again, though this didn't quite answer the question. Again, why did I ask what I did?
 

__
I wasn't around around when you posted about the wobbling. I particularly like eccentric seasons, but you shouldn't count my vote—I don't intend to fiddle with Dieamus. I just stumbled on this topic when exploring the forum. I also should mention my knowledge on such matters is full of holes. I'm just a way too curious enthusiast.
 
I think a bigger tilt gives you more drastic seasons, but I don't think it can give a three years season. All seasons will still be contained inside a single year, because per definition a solar year is a full cycle (e.g; solstice to solstice). They can only be more or less accentuated.

I (as I expressed) don't consider anyone's vote. I consider their logic. I want feedback to make sure that I haven't ignored something important, or that I haven't gotten something completely wrong.

 

Yes, a bigger tilt increases seasonal variation and moves the tropics and the wind patterns. And no, it would not give longer seasons.

 

A solar year, when I Googled it, is unfortunately ambiguous. The more precise term for what I wanted was a sidereal year (measured by the other stars). A tropical year is summer solstice to summer solstice. Either can be called a solar year.

 

I did not propose changing the degree of tilt through the sidereal year. I proposed wobbling the direction of the tilt during the sidereal year. Depending on the direction and pace of the wobble, seasons would be either shorter or longer (though all four are still near-equal in duration in all cases).
 

To give you a real life example of "different" seasons: The Northern Hemisphere can see snow in winter. You see clearly defined seasons in these places: sunny summer, falling-leaves autumn, frozen winter, rebirth of life in spring.

 

Then you look at the Southern Hemisphere. I live there, exactly under the Tropic of Capricorn, where temperatures are fairly constant and seasons are boring less drastic. You see the infernal and rainy summer, the second summer, I mean, autumn, the drier and colder (not even close to snow) winter, the slightly hotter spring. That's why our tropical forests are evergreen and no animal hibernates. There's absolutely no need for that, because temperatures never drop low enough to become harmful to them.

Having lived in both central and eastern North America, I've seen a lot of seasons. I currently live in a light blue region, if you are curious.

 

So, the reason for the third and fourth questions. The fact of "Southern Hemisphere" is not the cause of those biome layouts. The hemispheres are mirrored. Allow me to quote my old textbook, since this one line talked me into toying with (a series of) southern mega-continents in the first place:

 

The severe midlatitude climates occur only in the Northern Hemisphere because the Southern Hemisphere has limited landmasses at the appropriate latitudes---between 40° and 70°.

The reason Earth's Southern Hemisphere is warmer is because the landmasses are skinny and concentrated northward. As soon as I saw that, I wanted a setting in which people traveled north to find a warmer clime. (And then Brandon Sanderson wrote one.)

 

I like fantasies that mess with little assumptions like "the south is warmer." Seriously, who questions that? (As I noted above, "the sun rises in the west" is technically invalid to the best of my research, so please don't do that unless you have a REALLY good argument.)
 

Anyway, to get seasons spanning several years you modify the orbit of the planet. You can make it more eccentric (oval and closer to sun at one edge), you can do your planet orbit a binary system (two suns), etc. There are many ways to make something as harsh as GRRMartin's winter plausible.

Those are orbits I do not want to mess with, because there are a lot of extra consequences, identifying which I know I will fall woefully short on. Wobbles are plenty of trouble as it is.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Sir Jerric

[Mckeedee123]

Might I throw in one last point about what bugs me with the microorganism idea? Namely it seems like a concept biased from a viewpoint based within evolution on earth, aka. these races would have evolved essentially like on earth and then adapted to the magic. However, unless this setting was artifically created I have problems seeing that because life shouldn't have evolved mainly as on earth but it should have evolved as on Diaemus and on Diaemus microorganism (meaning organic lifeforms) can create magic, so what happened?

Did the magic stuff evolve, even though it had no advantage from it whatsoever and did so long before life was capable of actually entering a symbiosis to support it, did they get an advantage for it but for some reason evolution didn't follow survival of the fittest and the not magical part of life evolved or did the magical part of life evolve but then lost its ability to metabolize raw magic, even though there was no better alternative?

To put it into perspective, this is like all the (higher) creatures on earth not being able to drink water directly, so they first have to fish these weird things out of the water, squeeze some kind of liquid out of them and then drink that. Case in point, we didn't evolve with such an extra link in our ecosystem.

I'd vote that if you guys want to keep something like this, then we at least make them more seperated from biology/evolution and make them entirely magical in nature. Although to be fair, given that we are on a Sanderson fan-site I have a hard time not thinking of these things as a blander/less cohesive version of Spren already, they even have the luminescent glow of Stormlight.

 

I guess I've sort of been working with the assumption that life on Diaemus was created somehow rather than evolving, because of, yes, stuff like this. Not to say that evolution didn't happen but that life here has been influenced to reach the point it's at. How else could creatures possibly have evolved weird and unique adaptations to use magic with? How else could you have independent sapient species that didn't wipe each other out as they expanded across the planet? (Well, I suppose that if they occupied different niches, it's plausible, actually.)

 

Well, we chose not to acknowledge this one before, apparently, but if it bugs you, the nature of these balls of light is definitely mutable. I assume nobody has any problems with removing the biological aspect, correct? 

Edited September 19, 2015 by Mckeedee123

[Edgedancer]

Huh, makes more sense, in that case shouldn't we at least lay down the basics of what created the world and why, before we starting building an ecosystem based on some kind of greater force? (Maybe it's a mix of a space zoo and a relaitiy show )

Edited September 19, 2015 by Edgedancer

[Mailliw73]

And there's people's beliefs leaking into their creation. That was actually kinda neat to notice.

Bard, no mountains, just that narrow neck of light green and a small coastal area on the desert across from it.

[Curious Anamaximder]

You aren't alone, Winter. I'm leaving most of the science stuff to those who know what they're doing. I'm more interested in the culture things. To weigh in on the magic, I really don't care either way, I'm game for whatever you guys decide on. I would like humans to at least have some type of way to use the magic though.

Ditto.

[the winter system]

I'd like some of the brown area, if nobody's already claimed it. 

[Adamir]

 

I'm also in favor of some concrete guidelines as to what the magic actually does, but this is Brandon Sanderson's fansite, so I think we're probably all in agreement there.

 

I put a few ideas together in a mindmap; click the paperclips to actually get information on them, if you are willing to drag yourself through it (I may have gone a bit overboard). I put it together to tie together both the spirit and krill routes into two distinct methods. I couldn't edit the mindmap after putting it together, so just to clarify; Conduits occur in one person out of ten thousand. Going by Sanderson's laws of magic, this is about 60% soft, 40% hard magic. I'll leave it to anyone willing to go through it to pick out what actually works in this system.

 

https://atlas.mindmup.com/2015/09/6240930040e30133ef5b4161d8ff9f50/_/index.html#

 

Clarification No. II: What I refer to as Higher Manifestation Entities are normal people made spirits by over-exposure to krill.

 

EDIT II: Good point, Edgedancer. I'll take whichever patch no one else has claimed by the end.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Adamir

[Edgedancer]

Wasn't the idea for this to give everyone a region of the world to go wild with? Maybe it's just me but it seems that only settling on the barest of guidelines up-front and then everyone can set their own rules for the actual manifestations seems more in spirit to that then giving everyone one a detaied rule book they have to follow.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Edgedancer

[Esaias]

For the magic, it would be cool to have it work something like Elantris. Where each region is different while still having the same basic rules.

 

Also, if I'm allowed to claim a region, the middle of the eastern desert (the part nearby the orange) looks nice to me.

[Mckeedee123]

And there's people's beliefs leaking into their creation. That was actually kinda neat to notice.

Bard, no mountains, just that narrow neck of light green and a small coastal area on the desert across from it.

 

Nah. Whenever I start thinking about worldbuilding or xenobiology or whatever, I always assume life arose naturally and followed paths of evolution. Then again, that's because I usually don't take magic into account. It's not really plausible for dragons (or whatever) to have have evolved the ability to breathe fire, for the same reason it's not really plausible for macroorganisms to have evolved organic versions of the wheel. Evolution is about proximate factors, "the build-up" to the end result, rather than the end result itself (though, then again, I suppose the "breathing fire" thing could work if an organism mutated an organ for storing the ethanol from alcoholic fermentation, then mutated again to expel that alcohol, then... wait, no, it's still ridiculous.) The whole "magic-as-energy-source-thing" came from my musings on alternate sources of energy life forms could use way back in AP biology, but believe me, I did realize that it made life as we know it on Diaemus sort of redundant, not to mention that there's no way the things would naturally have developed bioluminescence if it made them such easy targets for predation.

 

Wasn't the idea for this to give everyone a region of the world to go wild with? Maybe it's just me but it seems that only settling on the barest of guidelines up-front and then everyone can set their own rules for the actual manifestations seems more in spirit to that then giving everyone one a detaied rule book they have to follow.

For the magic, it would be cool to have it work something like Elantris. Where each region is different while still having the same basic rules.

 

Also, if I'm allowed to claim a region, the middle of the eastern desert (the part nearby the orange) looks nice to me.

 

Right. Again, Jerric brought up a good point when he said that we should be able to do what we want. I'm pretty sure that what was written already is vague enough that people have near-absolute freedom, including being able to have the mineral-based magic system. Granted, I haven't read Adimir's thing as of yet...

[Edgedancer]

Nah. Whenever I start thinking about worldbuilding or xenobiology or whatever, I always assume life arose naturally and followed paths of evolution. Then again, that's because I usually don't take magic into account. It's not really plausible for dragons (or whatever) to have have evolved the ability to breathe fire, for the same reason it's not really plausible for macroorganisms to have evolved organic versions of the wheel. Evolution is about proximate factors, "the build-up" to the end result, rather than the end result itself (though, then again, I suppose the "breathing fire" thing could work if an organism mutated an organ for storing the ethanol from alcoholic fermentation, then mutated again to expel that alcohol, then... wait, no, it's still ridiculous.) The whole "magic-as-energy-source-thing" came from my musings on alternate sources of energy life forms could use way back in AP biology, but believe me, I did realize that it made life as we know it on Diaemus sort of redundant, not to mention that there's no way the things would naturally have developed bioluminescence if it made them such easy targets for predation.

 

 

Right. Again, Jerric brought up a good point when he said that we should be able to do what we want. I'm pretty sure that what was written already is vague enough that people have near-absolute freedom, including being able to have the mineral-based magic system. Granted, I haven't read Adimir's thing as of yet...

Pretty much the same for me... I actually don't even see how real world belives would play into this, unless someone belifes evolution didn't happen at all. Still, it would pay of to raise the question if we have some kind of creational force that set the planet up.

 

And seeing how I just spoke out for freedom, I'll take the my mineral idea and make it a subset. Be aware that I will go completely nuts with it now and only show very little restraint. MUHAHAHAHAHA! Anyway, undeground caverns are already taken, so is there still a mountain range free on the map?

[Seonid]

Not all of the underground caverns are taken, I think.

 

I've been assuming that life arose naturally on this world as well, but that the magical microorganisms are not natural. Either created (insert gods/spirits/mystic power/whatever here) or engineered (insert ancient alien race/progenitors/ancestors of modern humans/whatever here). I lean towards the engineered - some ancient alien race found a planet with life on it and added something. Maybe that interference that produced the "Lumuoles" also is why there are so many sapient races, maybe the "Lumuoles" are engineered to produce conditions that favor sapience arising. I'd like to keep the amount of

 

Similarly, I've been assuming that the humans/near-humans that we have living here are non-native for similar reasons. Humans are not going to arise naturally on this world. Not even close to it. Not in competition with other sapient races, not without primates, not without the specialized set of conditions that led to their arising here. On an entirely new planet, if we want recognizable humans, importing is the most plausible option.

[Edgedancer]

Not all of the underground caverns are taken, I think.

 

I've been assuming that life arose naturally on this world as well, but that the magical microorganisms are not natural. Either created (insert gods/spirits/mystic power/whatever here) or engineered (insert ancient alien race/progenitors/ancestors of modern humans/whatever here). I lean towards the engineered - some ancient alien race found a planet with life on it and added something. Maybe that interference that produced the "Lumuoles" also is why there are so many sapient races, maybe the "Lumuoles" are engineered to produce conditions that favor sapience arising. I'd like to keep the amount of

 

Similarly, I've been assuming that the humans/near-humans that we have living here are non-native for similar reasons. Humans are not going to arise naturally on this world. Not even close to it. Not in competition with other sapient races, not without primates, not without the specialized set of conditions that led to their arising here. On an entirely new planet, if we want recognizable humans, importing is the most plausible option.

You'd like to keep the amount of what?

 

The grey H areas are mountains, right? Can I take some of those?

[Lindel]

I've been assuming that there's a concrete reason the lumuoles are different from all other life on Diaemus, along the lines of what Mckeedee and Seonid have said.

I also like the idea of having some fundamental guidelines as to what the magic is capable of, so there's some cohesion. I'm in favor of allowing plenty of room for creativity, but it still needs to feel like part of the same magic system.

I think we discussed earlier that internally accessing lumuole energy through specially evolved organs is something few of the sapient races are capable of. This would fit with the idea that Diaemus has been cultivated by some external force: most of the sapient races are not native to the planet.

This would mean that they'd have to get more creative. The question, then, is what sort of abilities do lumuoles grant to the flora and fauna of Diaemus? I like the idea of it primarily powering biological processes, but more supernatural effects would work as well. Lumuole energy might allow some species to change their physiology in certain ways, allowing them to thrive in nearly any environment and adapt as needed in any given situation.

As far as the more supernatural effects, I say we come up with a basic idea of what the magic can effect. Is it an elements thing? This seems extremely arbitrary to me, but I'm throwing it in because it's been brought up. Does it manipulate fundamental forces and energies? We need at least a basic understanding of what the magic actually does, or there will be no cohesion.

EDIT:

I did realize that it made life as we know it on Diaemus sort of redundant, not to mention that there's no way the things would naturally have developed bioluminescence if it made them such easy targets for predation

There are two possible answers here. If they're symbiotes, then they might actually want to be found and ingested. Perhaps living inside larger lifeforms is an essential part of their life cycle. Not sure what the benefit would be for them, but it might have some connection to how they reproduce. The other possibility, of course, is that if they were engineered, they might have simply been built to glow so other lifeforms could actually find them. Edited September 19, 2015 by Lindel

[Kobold King]

Maybe lumuoles allow for the internal manipulation and infusion of matter on a fine scale? The spiders could make ultra-tough silks with it, far stronger than mere biology would allow. The raptors could use their lumuole colonies to become stronger and faster--maybe they owe even their sapience to a symbiotic relationship with brain lumuoles. Meanwhile, humans create machines that somehow "trick" the lumuoles into behaving like they're in a living thing, creating steampunk-esque mechanisms of astonishing variety and capability.

[Edgedancer]

I've been assuming that there's a concrete reason the lumuoles are different from all other life on Diaemus, along the lines of what Mckeedee and Seonid have said.

I also like the idea of having some fundamental guidelines as to what the magic is capable of, so there's some cohesion. I'm in favor of allowing plenty of room for creativity, but it still needs to feel like part of the same magic system.

I think we discussed earlier that internally accessing lumuole energy through specially evolved organs is something few of the sapient races are capable of. This would fit with the idea that Diaemus has been cultivated by some external force: most of the sapient races are not native to the planet.

This would mean that they'd have to get more creative. The question, then, is what sort of abilities do lumuoles grant to the flora and fauna of Diaemus? I like the idea of it primarily powering biological processes, but more supernatural effects would work as well. Lumuole energy might allow some species to change their physiology in certain ways, allowing them to thrive in nearly any environment and adapt as needed in any given situation.

As far as the more supernatural effects, I say we come up with a basic idea of what the magic can effect. Is it an elements thing? This seems extremely arbitrary to me, but I'm throwing it in because it's been brought up. Does it manipulate fundamental forces and energies? We need at least a basic understanding of what the magic actually does, or there will be no cohesion.

I don't think that magic that gives creatures more adaptability is very well suited for something that's supposed to be split into different sections.

 

anyway... Kobold pretty much ninja my idea. Make the magic internal, it allows for more range in what a type of creature can be/do and follows a theme. Although what we should limit is how strong a not "god" creature can be. (What did we settle on with those anyway? So do we stick with the, they used to be normal members of their species until they got further "uplifted" idea?)

[Seonid]

Whoops. Only wrote half of my thought. What I meant to write is that I'd like to keep the amount of alien/divine intervention to a minimum.

[Edgedancer]

Whoops. Only wrote half of my thought. What I meant to write is that I'd like to keep the amount of alien/divine intervention to a minimum.

Ah yes, this I agree with.

[Kobold King]

anyway... Kobold pretty much ninja my idea. Make the magic internal, it allows for more range in what a type of creature can be/do and follows a theme. Although what we should limit is how strong a not "god" creature can be. (What did we settle on with those anyway? So do we stick with the, they used to be normal members of their species until they got further "uplifted" idea?)

 

Potential rule of thumb: no "prime invincibilities." No individual creature should be so powerful that a small squad of men with steel weapons wouldn't be able to dispatch it.

[Edgedancer]

Potential rule of thumb: no "prime invincibilities." No individual creature should be so powerful that a small squad of men with steel weapons wouldn't be able to dispatch it.

Are we talking men with magical swords? Given that just about everything in this world will have acces to magic in some kind the balance would be diffenrent afterall.

 

While talking about the power levels, what about the god creatures? I don't think we want anything on a reality warper level but they'd have to do something to earn the title.

[Grey Knight]

I'm coming in late, and I really don't feel like reading through 8 pages of ideas, so forgive me if this has already been resolved, but I have an idea for what powers the magic of this world.

 

The two governing forces in this planet are Growth and Entropy. They are the energy of life, flowing through all things and affecting all things. Growth is the power of creation (using unused resources) and Entropy is the power of destruction, reverting things into their basic states.

 

I put the parentheses in because, unlike the names suggest, neither power is good nor bad. In areas where either is out of balance, nature stops working correctly. With an over-abundance of Growth, plants and animals will go through natural resources so fast that they burn out the land, leaving a barren wasteland. Areas with an over-abundance of Entropy turn into violent battlefields, with life fighting so hard to destroy other life it doesn't have time to create new life. Wizards (special people) can channel these powers.

[Kobold King]

Are we talking men with magical swords? Given that just about everything in this world will have acces to magic in some kind the balance would be diffenrent afterall.

 

While talking about the power levels, what about the god creatures? I don't think we want anything on a reality warper level but they'd have to do something to earn the title.

 

True. And it would be fun to have a few dangerous megafauna wandering around--sea monsters that can bring down ships, a few aerial predators that make travel over the plains dangerous, that sort of thing.

 

Maybe reality warpers that can affect everything except entities with high quantities of lumuoles? That would make the gods terrifying to humans and extremely dangerous to most races, but with limits that allow them to be confronted and fought.

 

Alternatively, the gods are reality warpers that can only affect entities with high concentrations of lumuoles. That would make them nigh-omnipotent against magical creatures, but in a rare twist humans would be the most effective warriors against them.

[Edgedancer]

True. And it would be fun to have a few dangerous megafauna wandering around--sea monsters that can bring down ships, a few aerial predators that make travel over the plains dangerous, that sort of thing.

 

Maybe reality warpers that can affect everything except entities with high quantities of lumuoles? That would make the gods terrifying to humans and extremely dangerous to most races, but with limits that allow them to be confronted and fought.

 

Alternatively, the gods are reality warpers that can only affect entities with high concentrations of lumuoles. That would make them nigh-omnipotent against magical creatures, but in a rare twist humans would be the most effective warriors against them.

I'd personally like the idea of the god creatures being rather individualized as well, so one may have become an night immortal being however apart from that only has powers that help him to care for his people but only little to "fight" another might have gained highly aggresive powers but is still rather close to mortal and yet another could have split the power under multiple members of its race, maybe even to the point where it is almost hereditary in a small portion of the population.