theory Magical Technology on Scadrial

[Argent]

I don't think, as some do, that you'd necessarily need to use a Smoker's spike to power a "smoke fabiral", though. That could be taken care of by metal composition and mist-investment, possibly.

 

The type of spren is important - critical even - for the type of fabrial you want to create. I would imagine the type of Allomancer will matter in a similar way.

[Kurkistan]

Unless you follow the reasoning in Chaos' OP to allow for the metal and how you Invest it with mist to be a large determining factor.

[Argent]

I don't think that's sufficient - I believe you need the Cognitive component, and Chaos' original theory lacks that. 

[Satsuoni]

Indeed, as Kurk says - Metal works as gates, and it is what is (partly) shaping the power of Preservation - so possibly metal alone would be enough. Or possibly, the "fabrials" (which are more or less similar to what I meant by "mist engines" in this post) - can use user's cognitive aspect, or even be mounted on to users through a variant of hemalurgy (invested spike may work as implant, even if Investiture comes from mists instead of humans).

 

EDIT: I think the question then would be- how are the fabrials/engines infused? Simply leaving metal in the mists is probably not enough - that is too easily noticed, and would have been known on the northern pole (probably). As Gloom noticed, infants, for example, can be easily used for spiking, especially if the resulting machine would then work for decades, if that is necessary - it can even be an honor. But spikes alone are also not enough...

Edited October 21, 2013 by Satsuoni

[Kurkistan]

@Argent

 

Yes, a component. But it isn't 1:1 in fabrial construction either, I would bet. I doubt that there are "move things in tandem" spren that are used in Conjoiner fabrials. Some wiggle room inevitably exists, and we needn't necessarily sacrifice Allomancers to get Allomantic effects.

 

Recall that the various Allomantic powers are all just manifestations of excess Preservation: so adding a bit of (hemalurgically acquired) Preservation in the proper way ought to let us get Allomantic effects.

 

@Sats

 

Oooh, implants...

Edited October 21, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Satsuoni]

Oooh, implants...

Implants, or simply machines that require you to, say, cut your arm on it to drive (spiked wheel )

That said, what if there are augmenters - "fabrials" that are charged from Mist and allow normal person to use the allomantic power he/she is closest to? Until mist runs out.

For Feruchemy - lack of Identity in machine may even help - something that drains a person on one setting, and charges on other, and can be used on different people?

[Argent]

I am not sure "closest to" a power applies to Allomancers. 

[Satsuoni]

I am not sure "closest to" a power applies to Allomancers. 

Well, something does define what kind of Misting one may become when, say, snapped by mists. So, essentially, the kind of Misting one would become if one had just a bit more Preservation, just barely enough to get a power.

[Nicrosil]

So... if there are machines that can simulate Allomancy, can they run by themselves, or does someone need to be actively controlling them, like a Roshar fabrial? If the former, then spacecraft becomes relatively simple. Attach a steel burning fabrial to your ship, and have it push of the core of the planet in a super push with a nicrosil fabrial. Of course, that's assuming that Scadrial has an iron core... hm.

[Kurkistan]

You don't necessarily need a user for a Rosharan fabrial. Heaters or Alerters almost certainly work fine by themselves, and I imagine most others do as well.

That aside, that won't work for FTL unless Brandon just doesn't care at all about physics. At all. You can't exceed c with any amount of energy, period.

Also, Scadrial almost certainly has a metallic core: note the volcanoes and tectonic activity, which indicate heating from radioactive elements in the interior. In fact, I'm not sure that it's even possible to have a rocky planet without a metallic core.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Nicrosil]

Yes, FTL would be impossible with just pushing, but it would potentially put the ship out of Scadrial's orbit. From there, bendalloy or cadmium fabrials would kick in to do wonky FTL things.

 

Actually, I think it would be best if the ship was in the vacuum of space before it started reaching insanely fast speeds; collisions with even small clumps of atoms when traveling quickly are apparently dangerous... but I think if you're faster than light, you're traveling backwards in time? I guess the point is moot 

Edited October 21, 2013 by Nicrosil

[Argent]

Time travel due to FTL effects is... not a very common sense friendly topic. In some ways you are, in some you aren't. Regardless of the speed I move at, I can't go and kill Hitler*. Let's not discuss theoretical science (fiction) here. 

 

* I swear, a few hundred years from now, Hitler will be more famous for being an example in a time travel thought exercise than for the Holocaust... 

[Oudeis]

 I am waiting with baited breath for the answer.

 

**Bated breath. Short for "abated". Literally, "I'm holding my breath".

 

we know that Hemalurgy was part of the pre-Empire culture

 

Where do we know this from, please?

 

I have some thoughts:

 

First and foremost, Chaos this was excellent work on your part. The base theory is simple and genius. You have connected concrete data in a genius way. Thank you for your effort and for giving me something to think about that is as rich as this idea is.

 

In no particula order, since we are discussing Southern Scadrians, I have a (totally unsubstantiated) theory about them that might affect things. We know they have no genetic modifications that would allow them to survive anything like Ashworld or being kept underground, we know that they had protection from their half of the planet burning, we know they are a 'control group' and we know Rashek is a 'control freak', and we know of no method he could have used to keep tabs on his southern people. I've always just assumed it was some form of stasis. Rashek needs to ensure these people survive just in case the north doesn't, and he won't be there to save them. Why not just make sure no time passes for them? I had originally thought something along the lines of cryogenics, but now I have a different idea.

 

See if you can follow this: The people down south somehow have access to tech that simulates the powers of allomancy. Rashek needed to keep them suspended in time. Rashek may well have known about the other metals. What if he set up a cadmium machine? If the 8:1 ratio supposed in chapter 12 of Alloy of Law is constant, 1024 years could pass in 128 subjective ones. Still a risk, but that is a far more survivable timeframe. (Also, who is to say the power of Preservation was bound by the same limits as a normal Pulser? If he could merely quadruple mortal power, it'd be 32 years.)

 

So, the time passes. Maybe they even have access to the machine, and 128 years is not long enough for people to forget that the Voice of God spoke to them and told them this machine was all that kept them alive. Until the last few decades, there'd prolly still be people alive who heard it.? They study it, they learn from it, it is the blueprint for their allomancy technology. Aaaand... that's my idea. 128 years is short enough that it's believable that even without TLR's iron grip, the world would have changed little enough. Little enough opportunity for any sort of regime change or world-spanning revolution. Granted, crafting "mist-fabrials" to slow down time for that long, over that large an area, would be implausible for them to possess, but it's something Rashek could theoretically have set up while he was Preservation.

 

Now, for feruchemy. We know there were full feruchemists in Pre-Empire days. I put to you that he would not have eliminated those feruchemists for the following reasons. First, as someone pointed out, they are literally a world away from the mistborn he fears them mixing with. Yes, theoretically they could cross thousands of miles of unsurvivably infernal planet in an attempt to reach the north and procreate, but it's as unlikely as the Terrispeople, bereft of any feruchemists, nevertheless bearing feruchemist children, and he took that risk, so clearly something kept him from total sociopathy (Preservation's influence?). Second, his entire point was a control group of unmodified people. Maybe one day he WOULD want unmodified feruchemist stock, and since his own body survived in Ashworld he presumably did modify his own body. So, I think the south would have feruchemy, and would not have mistwraiths.

 

I have other thoughts but this is getting fairly long, so I shall save them for another time.

[WeiryWriter]

Where do we know this from, please?

 

I believe we know it from the annotations on Brandon's site.  Basically Ruin influenced Scadrian culture to promote metal piercings (and as a result Hemalurgy) so he could have some control over potential Heroes.  We know Alendi, for example, had a spike for allomantic Bronze.

[Shardlet]

However, whether these piercings were worn by the wearer in order to use hemalurgy or if the intent came from Ruin (as in the case of Vin's earring) is not yet known. 

[Oudeis]

However, whether these piercings were worn by the wearer in order to use hemalurgy or if the intent came from Ruin (as in the case of Vin's earring) is not yet known. 

 

?? Not sure I understand what you're saying here.

 

One thing I think I do know, surely Vin's spike was intended for both purposes? Ruin wanted to influence her, true, but he also needed someone with strong enough bronze to hear the Well's thumps, which required a Mistborn or Seeker with an additional hemallurgic spike.

[Shardlet]

So Vin has her earring and wears it because of its potential use as a tool and as the only thing her mother gave her.  She is completely unaware of its hemalurgic properties.  So, did Alendi wear his piercings because of fashion, cultural norms, Ruin's influence, or to get enhanced abilities?  It is pretty clear why Ruin wanted both Vin and Alendi to have spikes.  But why did Alendi choose to have his piercings?

Edited October 21, 2013 by Shardlet

[Claincy]

but it's as unlikely as the Terrispeople, bereft of any feruchemists, nevertheless bearing feruchemist children, and he took that risk, so clearly something kept him from total sociopathy (Preservation's influence?).

I don't believe that was an intentional risk. His purges of the Terris people afterwoulds indicate that he just didn't think of the feruchemic sdna still present in the non-feruchemist Terris when he turned all the existing feruchemists into mistwraiths. He didn't really want to destroy his own people and he didn't think he needed to. I highly doubt Preservation's intent had any impact on this decision as it takes a long time bearing a full shard for it to have a major effect on the person's psyche to fit the shard's intent.

 

 Oh, interesting. Where'd you find that out, Claincy?

Ok, take it with a grain of salt as it is at least partially MAG based info. However I expect that at least the basic part is correct, "Copper spikes store intelligence and memory." It goes on to talk about the detrimental effects of having chunks of someone else's memories etc in your head. I take that as part of the cognitive aspect of the person and if that is the case, I would theorize that any spike would take on some small part of the cognitive aspect. (Clearly this is just theorizing and unconfirmed =) )

 

Edit: I'm just going to put a general apology here for all times where I go talking about stuff that is MAG confirmed only or is a theory as if it was confirmed. Because of how much time I have invested into the large MAG campaign I am running and the assumptions and decisions I have had to make for that I do sometimes get whether something is a theory that I've adopted for it or actually confirmed, mixed up.

Edited October 21, 2013 by lord_Ffnord

[Kurkistan]

@Alendi's Piercings
 
Here we go:

VEGASDEV (16 OCTOBER 2008)
Alendi's "Piercings of the Hero"?

BRANDON SANDERSON (17 OCTOBER 2008)
This is part of the manipulation Ruin did during the classical era on Scadrial, before the coming of the Lord Ruler. Piercings, and Hemalurgy, were part of the world before the coming of Allomancy in its modern form. Then, they were seen as a means of communicating with deity—which, indeed, they were. Ruin manipulated this to make sure any Hero of Ages who came would be under his influence. The reference is included mostly to indicate that yes, Alendi was under Ruin's influence. He ignored Rashek, though. (At least, right up to the moment when everything went 'wrong' for Ruin, when Rashek killed his chosen Hero of Ages.)

 
@Claincy
Hm. A fair enough supposition, though we have so very many quotes on Hemalurgy stealing "souls" (which itself has a number of definitions, it seems). If we want to retain Hemalurgy as focusing on the Spiritual, we could (as I've posited in the past, though I can't find the instance at the moment) ask whether a piece of soul might be able to "drag along" some part of the Cognitive aspect with it.

[Claincy]

Wait. I had forgotten about Alendi having spikes. Wasn't there something about no-one with haemalurgic spikes being able to use the power at the well? Was Ruin unaware of that or did the prophecies account for that and mention the hero removing their piercings before using/releasing the power?

[Kurkistan]

There's no info on it that I know of.

 

I doubt Ruin didn't know, so it was probably accounted for in the prophecies, or Ruin was counting on the Hero removing them himself, like Vin did.

[skaa]

I think the idea that's being thrown around is, if we keep to the fabrial comparison. The bit of Cognitive aspect in spikes is akin to the spren in a fabrial, while the mists are like Stormlight. I've wondered about using spikes myself, but I'm not entirely sure how I feel about it.

 

Ah, now I understand. I'm not quite sure Hemalurgic charges can be considered equivalent to spren, though. Hemalurgic charges, if I understand them correctly, are forms of Invested power, similar to the Mists, Stormlight, Feruchemical charges, etc. The only difference is that Mist and Stormlight are "raw Investiture" (my term), while Hemalurgic and Feruchemical charges have already been shaped by the intent of their users.

Edited October 22, 2013 by skaa

[Claincy]

Ah, now I understand. I'm not quite sure Hemalurgic charges can be considered equivalent to spren, though. Hemalurgic charges, if I understand them correctly, are forms of Invested power, similar to the Mists, Stormlight, Feruchemical charges, etc. The only difference is that Mist and Stormlight are "raw Investiture" (my term), while Hemalurgic and Feruchemical charges have already been shaped by the intent of their users.

Haemalurgic spikes are slightly more different than that as they do contain a piece of the victims sdna.(Whether they steal a part of the victims cognitive aspect or not is still very open to debate ) They definitely aren't equivalent to spren but they could *maybe* serve a similar purpose in this theoretical system.

Edited October 21, 2013 by lord_Ffnord

[Argent]

There's no info on it that I know of.

 

I doubt Ruin didn't know, so it was probably accounted for in the prophecies, or Ruin was counting on the Hero removing them himself, like Vin did.

 

This is a fair assumption. If I recall correctly, when Vin entered the well and her Hemalurgic earing came into contact with Preservation's power/body, he felt as if the earing was burning; presumably because Ruin's and Preservation's power don't play well with each other (as seen in Vin's battle against Ruin after her ascension). So Alendi probably would've removed them as well.

 

... wait. This is backwards. Wouldn't Ruin want to keep control over the Hero? Or is the working theory that he wanted to control the Hero only as far as to take him or her to the Well and make sure they took the power for themselves, but then released it, thereby freeing him? 

[Kurkistan]

He never controlled Alendi or Vin, just... influenced. I imagine that that influence lasts for a bit after de-spiking, just like Ati would stay Ruinous for a while after giving up the Shard.