Chaos

theory
Magical Technology on Scadrial

132 posts in this topic

It's been a long time since I read these books, and they had no data on the southern continent that I'm aware of. So would I be wrong to assume that there are mistwraiths on the southern continent? Perhaps if you force a mistwraith to ingest the metal, and wait a specific period of time it can be extracted as invested metal.

Edited by Gloom
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Clever Idea, Chaos.  Definitely needs some more info to flesh it out (as you pointed out).  Nice job extrapolating out the wetlander question response.  Also, How did you get that fancy "Theory" indicator on your thread title?

 

@Gloom- I would very much doubt that there are mistwraiths on the Southern continent.  The mistwraiths are former Terris feruchemists and their offspring.  Of course TLR could have directly created them on the Southern continent from SoScad stock.

 

How about SoScads and NoScads as shorthand convention for dealing with the separate continents?

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Well Chaos, you know already that I like this theory.

 

Also, How did you get that fancy "Theory" indicator on your thread title?

When you create a new topic there's a check box to the left of where you enter the tags that says "Use First Tag as Prefix". So the first tag you use will be placed by the title of the topic, and in this case the tag was theory.

How about SoScads and NoScads as shorthand convention for dealing with the separate continents?

I'll probably stick with just typing it out, because I tend to dislike camel case.
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Interesting idea but are mists even necessary? We know Southerners have very little of Preservation's power in their blood so there is no chance of one of them being born Mistborn+Feruchemist. Which means if they have Feruchemy there, the Lord Ruler doesn't have a reason to try to wipe them out.

 

So, Feruchemy already handles the storing Investment in metals part. The trick is how to tap that power without the Feruchemist who stored it. I have no idea how that would work.

Edited by cem
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When you create a new topic there's a check box to the left of where you enter the tags that says "Use First Tag as Prefix". So the first tag you use will be placed by the title of the topic, and in this case the tag was theory.

 

Ooh, thanks Windy.

 

I'll probably stick with just typing it out, because I tend to dislike camel case.

 

Camel case is optional: Soscads and Noscads. :P

 

Edit: @cem- The rub is which power is greater in magnitude?  A stored specific attribute or raw power of Preservation (or Ruin with the other mist)?  I am inclined to get behind the raw power if for no other reason than it would be attribute generic.

Edited by Shardlet
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That's... random and farfetched at best, @Gloom. It's possible, but in the way a-wizard-did-it is possible.

 

@Shardlet, I will fight against those shorthand notations. Partially because I don't like shorthand very much, but also because those feel... clumsy. Not that I have anything better to offer.

 

Back to the main theory. It makes sense conceptually. My realmatics are more than a little rusty, but let's see if I can put something sensible together. Let's look at fabrials on Roshar. They touch each one of the Realms, mostly by requiring components:

  • a gem from the Physical Realm, to host
  • a spren from the Cognitive Realm, which
  • using Stormlight, the power of creation itself, temporarily and locally rewrites
  • the laws of magic which "reside" in the Spiritual Realm

Assuming I am correct here, mist fabrials might operate on a similar principle:

  • A metal from the Physical Realm will be foundation, the host, of the entire fabrial
  • Something from the Cognitive Realm will do the actual work. It would have to be something, a Scadrial spren (for the lack of a better word), to which magic is as native as breathing is to us. 
  • The mists to serve as fuel for that mysterious Cognitive component

We - or at least I - don't know enough the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial, so I can't really bring any proof to the table, But it sounds streamlined, there is coherence to the idea. There are holes, obviously - this can only explain Allomancy. I can't begin to imagine how Feruchemy would work under this system, though I am not convinced it has to be possible. 

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This post will contain spoilers for 'Shattered State', the MAG game I am narrating. So if tec or anyone else is online, please do not read this, or any responses to my response. Claincy, you can feel free, just don't tell them anything.

 

 

 

Also, as an aside, there is an annotation that suggested the Lord Ruler put people on the southern pole as a reserve, in case his genetic modifications failed. So, if mist fabrials were the method that the Lord Ruler gave these people to survive down there. Sooo, I figured if Brandon said yes to the previous question, I'd ask if the Lord Ruler knew of this method and used it. (He certainly wears enough metal to make it useful, don't you think?)

 

To be honest, I would assume that the Southerners were placed underground. My key clue was that Brandon said they survived when the sun was moved to their side of the planet... that led me to thinking they were placed in a subterranean cavern, along with a food source which could be grown underground (similar to Kandra food). (Basically, while the North languishes under Rashek, the South gets a thousand years of Minecraft).

 

As for the mechanical way of using the Metallic Arts... we know that Hemalurgy was part of the pre-Empire culture, and everything you're saying about charging an object with Allomantic or Feruchemic power puts me in mind of spikes. Perhaps the key is to give machines a way of interfacing with spikes? It would certainly solve the "influenced by Ruin" problems of Hemalurgy... do machines have souls or minds?

 

I'm thinking the "mechanical" use of the Metallic Arts could be... "safe" Hemalurgy.

 

Mistfabrials as Hemalurgic spikes would certainly be consistent with your reasoning that it would be easily explained, and fit with what we know.

Edited by Kadrok
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Perhaps the key is to give machines a way of interfacing with spikes? It would certainly solve the "influenced by Ruin" problems of Hemalurgy... do machines have souls or minds?

 

Which in turn makes me think of the Lifeless from Nalthis...

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@Kad, Ah, so that's where you are going with that. Don't worry, I won't tell ;)

 

Perhaps the biggest problem with the theory to start with appeared to be the lack of any spren equivalent for the cognitive aspect. Kadrok's idea of the "fabrials" being haemalurgic spikes can fix this. As haemalurgic spikes can take part of someone's cognitive aspect as well as the part of their sDNA. So the people who were killed to make the spikes would take the place of the spren in Rosharian fabrials.

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Perhaps the plot of a future Mistborn book is a war between the north and the newly discovered south, with Marsh's book being the key to turning the tide, allowing Wax or whoever to figure out the south's strange Hemalurgic technology.

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So the people who were killed to make the spikes would take the place of the spren in Rosharian fabrials.

 

Spiked, not necessarily killed. It's not a huge difference for the person whose sDNA is getting ripped from them, but I can (given how messed up Scadrial has been...) see a culture where certain people offer to be spiked in exchange for... stuff. It could be that this is how Southern Scadrians deal with criminals, offering them a choice between pseudo-life after spiking and death. Or maybe some people volunteer in exchange for massive monetary compensation for their families. Or they only play sDNA roulette with those who are close to death - the sick and the elderly. 

 

But all of those options sound... unstable. I really can't imagine a society whose foundation is Hemalurgy surviving for a millenium. 

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@Argent, good point. Nah, a society where they regularly took parts of peoples souls couldn't possibly last very long, oh, wait, Hallendren anyone? ;)

 

It is a bit different, but mainly just because of the process of taking that part being a tad messier with haemalurgy.

 

Edit: dang it. Some day I will remember that hemalurgy doesn't have an extra 'a' in it despite it's connection to blood :/

Edited by lord_Ffnord
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I'm pretty sure Hemalurgy requires contact with blood to work guys. I don't know how they'd get around that.

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@lord_Ffnord misspelled the name, @cem - he typed "haemalurgy" instead of Hemalurgy. Brandon likely took the "Hema" part of "Hemalurgy" from "hema" / "haema" (the latter being British), which is derived from "hemato" or "of blood." I assume our lord_Ffnord up there is not American, so every time he reads "Hemalurgy," it's itching him to turn that into "Haemalurgy" :P

 

Linguistics aside, I'll admit that Hallandren sounds similar, but there is one very significant difference. Being a Drab doesn't mess up your sDNA nearly as much as Hemalurgy does - I am not even sure giving up your Breath affects your sDNA at all. Hemalurgy literally rips your soul apart, and as far as we know the damage is irreparable. On Nalthis, even if you've been a Drab (almost) your entire life, you can still buy a Breath and go back to "normal." That, I think, makes all the difference in the world. 

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Yup, that's correct (Australian).

 

I agree that losing your breath on Nalthis is not as severe as being spiked. However, I think it is very similar just on a lesser scale, and it is still quite serious.

 

The fact that Drabs can’t be noticed by life sense allows me to show that they have taken one more step toward being objects themselves.

BioChroma. It turns objects into living things, but turns living things into objects as well.

Warbreaker annotations chapter 15 part 2 http://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-warbreaker-chapter-fifteen-part-2/

 

Vivenna is right about what happens to a person when they lose their Breath. It is a part of your soul, and without one, you are more prone to depression, you get sick much more easily, and you’re generally more irritable.

 

I included this mention here because I’m betting that most people who read the book side with Denth and assume he’s right when he talks about these things. But don’t be too judgmental about the Idrians—yes, they’re biased, but the Hallandren are too in a lot of ways. It’s not as simple as one side always being right and the other wrong. In this case, the Idrian teachings are correct, and most Hallandren are looking for justifications when they say that giving up one’s Breath isn’t all that damaging to them.

Warbreaker annotations chapter 22 part 2 http://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-warbreaker-chapter-twenty-two-part-2/

 

I think the parallel is justified. Anyway, you kind of can get back what was stolen by hemalurgy, just by getting a spike yourself. Not an ideal solution and if it wasn't the spike that was made using you you are still going to be a bit different. Though yes, that is notably harder than just replacing a breath.

 

As a side note, I'm not convinced that losing your breath then gaining someone else's breath will leave you exactly as you were before. (Ignoring the impact of time spent as a drab.) We know that breaths can be different strengths and I think it's possible that breaths differ in more ways as well.

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The Hemalurgy Tech theory looks interesting, but I'm not sure how Southern Scadrians can get Allomancy-infused spikes, seeing as none of them are Allomancers. I think they can only make Hemalurgic spikes for normal human attributes (i.e. Iron, Tin, Zinc, and Copper Hemalurgy). So, that still doesn't answer how the Southerns harnessed Allomancy via technology.

 

I think Chaos' idea, Mist-fuelled Allomancy Tech, is a bit more likely. Do we know if the Mists existed in Southern Scadrial?

 

My own crazy theory involves using gold-aluminum intermetallics as catalysts for inducing the Allomantic effects of metals. Yes, I'm a bit obsessed with aluminum and gold when it comes to the Metallic Arts (see the other theories in my sig). :P

 

The reason why I think another metal is the key is two-fold: The first is Miles' dying words about the "bearers of the final metal," which I presume to be a reference to the Southern Scadrians. Second is how aluminum's Allomantic (anti-Allomantic?) power manifests itself even without burning it. I put those two things together and concluded that the final metal is an alloy of aluminum whose presence induces Allomancy in other metals. It can't be duralumin, because that metal was known in Northern Scadrial pre-Harmony. Anyway, I'm not yet ready to justify why I chose gold-aluminum specifically. I just wanted to put this theory out there in case somebody else finds it interesting. :-)

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The Hemalurgy Tech theory looks interesting, but I'm not sure how Southern Scadrians can get Allomancy-infused spikes, seeing as none of them are Allomancers.

I see no reason why they can't snap into Allomancers given that Alendi was a Seeker, though Mistborn would be unheard of.

 

Here's a WoB:

 

Comatose (18 October 2008)    

So here's my last question. If there ARE people on the other side of the world, did Vin kill them all by placing the sun on their side, or do they have they're own Ruin/Preservation battle going on over there as well? Do they also have allomancy feruchemy and hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson (20 October 2008)    

No, they're not dead. Yes, Rashek was aware of them. In fact, he placed them there as a reserve. I knew he wanted a 'control' group of people in case his changes to genetics ended with the race being in serious trouble. All I'll say is that he found a way other than changing them genetically to help them survive in the world he created. And since they were created by Ruin and Preservation, they have the seeds of the Three Metallic Arts in them—though without anyone among them having burned Lerasium, Allomancers would have been very rare in their population and full Mistborn unheard of.

Edited by Kadrok
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<kadrok just ninja'd me =( >

Oh well. They would have genetic allomancy but it would be much rarer than in the final empire.

 

 Anyway, the haemalurgy thing is more an expansion of Chaos's theory than a new theory altogether (ooor I'm on a different track to Kadrok :/ ).

 

@Skaa, interesting theory, but I can't say that I really think it's correct. Though Aluminium definitely has a lot of interesting things about it that we don't know yet, which would be why he keeps RAFOing aluminium questions. (I don't actually think Chaos's theory is quite correct either :P)

Edited by lord_Ffnord
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I see no reason why they can't snap into Allomancers given that Alendi was a Seeker, though Mistborn would be unheard of.

Oh. I'm sorry about that. You're correct, Kadrok. Allomancy does exist on Southern Scadrial. I misread that WoB when I first encountered it months ago. My bad.

But... won't the Southern Allomancers always be in hiding if their society is after their blood (literally)? :P

 

Anyway, the haemalurgy thing is more an expansion of Chaos's theory than a new theory altogether (ooor I'm on a different track to Kadrok :/ ).

@Skaa, interesting theory, but I can't say that I really think it's correct. Though Aluminium definitely has a lot of interesting things about it that we don't know yet, which would be why he keeps RAFOing aluminium questions. (I don't actually think Chaos's theory is quite correct either :P)

Well, my understanding is that Chaos' theory is that Scadrian "fabrials" are powered by mist, while Kadros' is about using Hemalurgic spikes to power them somehow. I'm sorry if I missed something. :) Me, I just wanted to share a theory that involves the mysterious "final metal" somehow.

But yeah, as long Brandon keeps on RAFOing our Southern Scadrial questions, we should enjoy making as many of these theories as we want. :P

Edited by skaa
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But yeah, as long Brandon keeps on RAFOing our Southern Scadrial questions, we should enjoy making as many of these theories as we want. :P

Oooh yes =D

 

My take on the haemalurgic spike thing, is that the actual usage of them as a fabrial would be powered by the mists as in Chaos's theory. But you needed an imbued spike rather than just a random piece of metal.

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I think the idea that's being thrown around is, if we keep to the fabrial comparison. The bit of Cognitive aspect in spikes is akin to the spren in a fabrial, while the mists are like  Stormlight. I've wondered about using spikes myself, but I'm not entirely sure how I feel about it.

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If they lived underground with the mists, that would be...different. Life underground is far more difficult than life above ground, even in Scadrial this would still be the case.

 

No matter how long your society exists, it would be difficult for it ever to flourish. There would always be a definite balancing act between expansion, which is extremely labor intensive when using manual labor, food, and population. I think such a society would be likely to fail at the first plague unless they were broken up into separate colonies. Those colonies may or may not ever encounter each other pre-Harmony. If they did encounter each other they would probably fight to see who was stronger, if the fighting proved fruitless, they would eventually trade. Space would be the most important factor next to food, and in fact, without space to grow food, no food.

 

This lack of space would result in a surplus of people who were not sustainable.

 

I don't believe that a society would be unable to survive by spiking and killing a portion of its population. In our world, the Aztecs sacrificed their own people for generations before they began sacrificing their enemies instead. Human beings have since the dawn of time left unwanted infants exposed to the elements. They continue to do so even to this day. Humans are willing to do what it takes to survive, and when that is something unpleasant, we codify it, mystisize it, and make it acceptable. Hemalurgy is a strong candidate if you can figure out how to keep a spike alive in a machine.

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@Kad, Ah, so that's where you are going with that. Don't worry, I won't tell ;)

 

Perhaps the biggest problem with the theory to start with appeared to be the lack of any spren equivalent for the cognitive aspect. Kadrok's idea of the "fabrials" being haemalurgic spikes can fix this. As haemalurgic spikes can take part of someone's cognitive aspect as well as the part of their sDNA. So the people who were killed to make the spikes would take the place of the spren in Rosharian fabrials.

 

Oh, interesting. Where'd you find that out, Claincy?

 

EDIT:

On the connection between Breath and Hemalurgy:

 

Source:

Satsuoni:

1) You said that every person on Scadrial has a bit of Preservation in them. It is possible, then, to accumulate enough Hemalurgic charge from killing normal people by, say, steel spike (at once, or in order), to make that spike grant Allomancy? Building on this, is it possible for the spike to accumulate charge while being imbedded in acceptor body, by killing people with the protruding end?

Brandon:

1) My, you're making the Scadrial magic systems sound a lot like the one from Nalthis.... Hm....

 

Sats also touched on the possibility of "harmless" spiking back in another thread.

 

@General Theory

 

I like the theory, and I think Kads might be onto something about Hemalurgy providing the "spren" component of the "mist fabrial".

 

I don't think, as some do, that you'd necessarily need to use a Smoker's spike to power a "smoke fabiral", though. That could be taken care of by metal composition and mist-investment, possibly.

 

Also, recall that you can likely spike out attributes from animals (since we know you can spike them in), so Hemalurgy as providing the "spren" component needn't be human-sacrificing.

Edited by Kurkistan
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Hmm... mist fabrials? I very much like this.

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