Analysis of the Epic Effect (Spoilers)

[Arcanist Lupus]

I created this thread to do an in-depth analysis/comparison of the Epic Effect.  The Epic Effect (EE) being how the use of Epic powers changes the personality of the users.

 

 

Epics:

Prof

Prof is a gifter with at least 3 separate abilities: matter disruption, rapid healing, and protective shielding.  When he gifts his powers the EE doesn't affect him, but it applies to the giftees, especially in high concentrations.  He doesn't gift people directly, but instead gifts objects, which when worn apply the power to the wearer/user.  The use of objects as the gifting medium does not prevent the EE, although it could theoretically slow it down.

 

It is likely (although supposition) that Prof is the Epic that destroyed the school he taught at.

 

The EE appears to manifest in the Prof mainly as increased arrogance.

 

Prof appeared to be mildly influenced by the EE when David made him think about using his powers.

 

Firefight

Firefight is an illusionist with the prime invincibility of rebirth.  Her rebirths are coupled with memory loss

 

When Firefight used her illusions in the elevator, the EE manifested as anger and possibly hate.  On the motorcycle, she became "stiffer" possibly indicating a number of emotions.  When she used her illusions in the stadium, her attitude afterwards was primarily indifference.

 

When Firefight was reincarnated after the chase scene, she didn't understand David's love, but she has begun to by the end of the stadium fight.  She also says that her mind changes when she is reborn.  This may be the EE, since rebirth is probably a powerful use of Epic abilities, but it may also be a more permanent personality shift (think Doctor Who).  Also, there is a possibility that her underlying personality stays the same, but her EE manifestation changes.

 

Deathpoint

Deathpoint could point at someone and kill them.  He may also have had a secondary power.

 

He claimed that his killing spree/bank robbery was motivated to generate fear to give him power, but he also appeared to enjoy the terror he caused.

 

Nightwielder

Nightwielder could create shadows which could manipulate the environment and kill people.  He was immaterial when not exposed to UV light, and could create a dome which blocked out all external light (except for Calamity).

 

There were no obvious EE manifestations that I could find, besides being generically willing to work with Steelheart to maintain a dictatorship, and not showing any positive emotions.

 

Conflux

Conflux is an energy gifter.  He can imbue objects with energy, and he can gift others that ability as well.  [Note: Exactly what he gives to the people he gifts was not entirely clear]

 

Conflux killed is wife, apparently by accident.

 

Conflux is noted for an apparent lack of EE manifestation.  He doesn't show much guilt or grief over his wife's death, but that was an accident that happened likely over a decade ago.  He may have simply come to terms with it.

 

Those he gifted to also lack an obvious EE manifestation.  However, he was gifting pretty thinly, so this may not be an indication of the EE manifestation of gifting his powers.

 

Steelheart

Steelheart has completely invulnerability, energy blasts, flight, super strength (and a super physique), and the ability to transmute nonliving matter into steel when angry.

 

The EE seems to manifest as arrogance or indifference.  He rarely shows any strong emotions, but simply declares his superiority as fact.  He may also believe that he is divine.

 

Steelheart felt he needed to keep everyone afraid of him, so separating his actions caused by the EE and his actions motivated by his need to scare people may be difficult.

 

Fortuity

A precog with a danger sense.  Secondary power of super reflexes.  [Note: a good precog could possibly use precognition to mimic super reflexes, but this is never discussed, and may be irrelevant].

 

Fortuity enjoyed reading the future using fresh human entrails.

 

Curveball

Never runs out of bullets.

 

No obvious EE manifestation

 

Refractionary

Illusions and invisibility.

 

No obvious EE manifestation.

 

Digzone

Gifter who could gift matter disrupting powers to others.  Those he gifted to when insane.

 

The insanity mentioned could be an EE manifestation.  It is significantly different from every other mentioned EE manifestation, so it may be a separate effect, or have another source entirely (e.g. if Digzone recruited his diggers from an insane asylum).

 

 

Analysis of EE

The most common EE manifestation is arrogance and indifference.  Most of the powerful Epics exhibited these traits.  Two of the weaker Epics, Deathpoint and Fortuity, showed indications of enjoying the suffering of others.  Firefight and Prof showed indications of anger.  Firefight showed two different EE manifestations: anger before her rebirth, and indifference afterwards.

 

Origins

The EE effect is either particularly strong when Epic first gets their powers, or is initially very subtle.  Deathpoint had an obviously horrifying power, yet the EE reached the point where he didn't care about killing a baby.  I see several possibilities:

1) Awakening as an Epic comes with an EE surge.  This is seemingly refuted by Conflux, who (assuming he was telling the truth) never showed the EE, despite being awakened.

2) The EE increases whether or not powers are actively in use.  This is seemingly refuted by Conflux, Prof, and Firefight.  Conflux and Prof could be explained that gifting their powers protects them from the EE, but FIrefight has no such protection.

3) Deathpoint has a secondary power which he used more often then his finger of death until the EE took full effect.  This is inherently unverifiable.

4) The EE overwhelms an Epic extremely quickly.  This is seemingly refuted by Prof and Firefight.  Prof knew about the EE, and therefore was fighting it, increasing his resistance, but Firefight appeared to be ignorant of the EE, so she would not have had that resistance.  However, her ignorance is implied by a cryptic statement she made while recovering from rebirth induced amnesia, so that can't be trusted.

5) Deathpoint was a jerk to begin with, and didn't care about killing people even when he was a normal human.  Also inherently unverifiable.

 

Obviously, we're working with very little data and a lot of supposition.  But we need to start someplace.  I tried to be as complete in my summaries as possible.  If I missed anything, let me know and I'll add it.

 

If you like, I can draw up the quotes I based my summaries on.  But this post is already really long, so I'm going to provide quotes on a case by case basis, if you feel they're needed.

 

My analysis isn't as complete as I would like, but completing the summaries wore me out.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Sir Read-a-Lot

[Limelight]

He doesn't gift people directly, but instead gifts objects, which when worn apply the power to the wearer/user.  The use of objects as the gifting medium does not prevent the EE, although it could theoretically slow it down

 

I thought the items were just a cover-up by prof so as not to reveal his epic powers and he was actually giving the powers to the group...but i might be wrong.

 

PS.did you come up with the epic effect term or has it been used before cause its pretty.....epic(i honestly couldn't think of a different word)

Edited October 5, 2013 by Limelight

[Arcanist Lupus]

 

I thought the items were just a cover-up by prof so as not to reveal his epic powers and he was actually giving the powers to the group...but i might be wrong.

 

PS.did you come up with the epic effect term or has it been used before cause its pretty.....epic(i honestly couldn't think of a different word)

 

Someone brought it up in another thread, but there are instances of people not being healed until they pulled out the harmsway.  Most of the machinery in the items might have been a cover-up, but I'm pretty sure that the items themselves were the sources of the abilities.

 

 

And I don't think anyone else has used Epic Effect yet.  It made the thread seem more scientific-y, so I like it.

[Gloom]

It's a theory, so take it for what it's worth. It's a theory based on solid argument, but not everyone is in agreement with all of the points above.

 

Gifting objects is disputed, though I'm in favor of the idea. Other seem to think that gifting is done person to person, but I've argued, apparently successfully, that being gifted by the Prof. through objects makes more sense. Getting shot without your jacket on for instance would raise questions. Healing without the aid of the harmsway would also raise questions, and no one but the Prof can use tensors without wearing them.

 

There is more evidence around. Read the thread on Conflux if you're interested, most of it's there.

[Isomere]

Lets suppose the gifting is direct, but the object works like a mental crutch. You don't believe you can access the power without it, so you can't. I think this fits all the data we have.

Now lets suppose the object is gifted. Wouldn't that provide a workaround so that other epics could use the tensors? Unless the object needs to temporarily gift the wearer or form some kind of epic power-sharing gig. Someone should really ask Prof about that.

[Satsuoni]

The quote from the book:

I pushed my hand hard, flat, feeling the glove shake. It wasn’t just the glove, though. It was my whole hand. That had confused me at first. It seemed like I was creating the power, not the glove—the glove just helped shape the blast somehow.

So, several possibilities, as outlined above: 1. The objects are gifted. 2. Objects are charged, and then the gift goes on to human when the human tries to use it. 3. Humans are gifted (Prof wanted David to use broken tensor), but objects help with focus and shaping the power.

 

Also: I have the feeling that Conflux cannot use his power directly at all, just gifting (charging stuff with energy, like those power cells). That is how he killed his wife - he charged ?table? instead of microwave, and she got electrocuted. So, he only affected a little by the power.

 

Also, one of the effects is more like arrogance than anger - essentially, in both cases (Megan and Prof), IIRC, it was augmented annoyance  -"How dare those worms" - kind of thing, very understandable in the given situations.

Also, a minor thing You are confused, Read a Lot - babies are morally easier to kill than adults - their personalities are less developed, and so it is harder to attach to them... (at least that is how my morality would work). So that is not a good indicator of effect strength...

[Oudeis]

babies are morally easier to kill than adults - their personalities are less developed, and so it is harder to attach to them... (at least that is how my morality would work). So that is not a good indicator of effect strength...

 

Morality is technically a more organic issue than that; while that's how your brain works, it's not considered universal. You apparently would approach murder from a de-sensitized standpoint, thinking of the baby as "not really a person". Someone else might have 'justification' as their moral workaround, in which case it's easier to ascribe some sort of blame to the victim, which is frequently easier to justify on someone with control over their actions.

 

For a fascinating look at moral relativity, ask a room full of defense lawyers what type of criminal they draw the line at defending. They all understand that it isn't a matter of "these are clearly, objectively worse than these," they're rather morally subjective.

[Satsuoni]

Morality is technically a more organic issue than that; while that's how your brain works, it's not considered universal. You apparently would approach murder from a de-sensitized standpoint, thinking of the baby as "not really a person". Someone else might have 'justification' as their moral workaround, in which case it's easier to ascribe some sort of blame to the victim, which is frequently easier to justify on someone with control over their actions.

 

For a fascinating look at moral relativity, ask a room full of defense lawyers what type of criminal they draw the line at defending. They all understand that it isn't a matter of "these are clearly, objectively worse than these," they're rather morally subjective.

True that... Morality and evil/good are subjective, but the Epic Effect actually seems relatively consistent. Essentially, I think, Epics a) are less afraid (fear is the base of *my* morality) b ) Are... what is the proper term? Egocentric or super-egoistic? Well, they see everybody except themselves as a tool or obstacle, and treat them correspondingly. Everything else seems secondary - that change alone is enough to free normally inhibited impulses, like sadism, idle curiosity, control desire, etc, etc.

[Dahak]

Now lets suppose the object is gifted. Wouldn't that provide a workaround so that other epics could use the tensors? Unless the object needs to temporarily gift the wearer or form some kind of epic power-sharing gig. Someone should really ask Prof about that.

 

Megan can't use a tensor or the harmsway. Despite having tried. Therefore they aren't a workaround.

 

But she has used Power Armour, so Conflux would appear as David said to be gifting Enforcement Team Leaders to be able to recharge them rather than the power cells.

 

Yeah. They’re stuffy inside, and they respond very sluggishly.” She hesitated. “I’ll admit that firing both rotary guns with wild abandon can be rather fulfilling, in a primal sort of way.”

 

As for the Harmaway, it's never used with out both Prof and Tia being in the vicinity, and we never see it put on to someone, despite Tia suggesting she should put it on David. That there is only one suggests it isn't the device that's being gifted and Tia's carrying a single prop. The Prof only gifts that power when people need it. Of course that leads to the question if he can gift the power to gift healing.

 

And The Prof heals David by directly gifting the power with out any noticeable Epic Effect

 

He nodded, breathing in and out deeply. “Take it.” He reached out his hand.

I hesitantly took his hand with my good one—the other was crushed. I should have felt pain from that. I was too much in shock.

I didn’t feel any different, but Prof seemed to grow more in control. My wounded hand re-formed, bones pulling together. In seconds I could flex it again, and it worked perfectly.

“I have to split it up among you,” he said. “It doesn’t seem to . . . seep into you as quickly as it does me. But if I give it all to one person, they’ll change.”

 

 

Since David was showing signs of the Epic Effect after relatively small excavations I don't think we can argue that the Prof was doing anything different from Digzone.

 

There's no evidence yet that the Prof is deceiving David when he comes clean at the end.

[Gloom]

Since David was showing signs of the Epic Effect after relatively small excavations I don't think we can argue that the Prof was doing anything different from Digzone.

 

There's no evidence yet that the Prof is deceiving David when he comes clean at the end.

 

IIRC, They spent three days preparing Soldiers Field, and David was the stick man for the tensors pretty much the whole time. If David was showing EE, it wasn't because of some relatively small excavations.

 

I agree that the power can't be utilized by another epic regardless of what method is used, but I still believe that objects can be gifted.

 

Conflux could charge/gift batteries.

[Isomere]

I think the fence looks like a nice place to rest. The data works with objects as mental crutch, and with objects as a power transference tool. Since epics can't use tensors it doesn't seem consistent if the power is purely between gifter and object.

[Vortaan]

I think something to note here is that some of these powers are probably always on. Fortuity and Steelheart definitely, Prof maybe. I'm curious if Deathpoint's secondary power was something that was always on as well. Regardless, it seems like the EE would have more of an effect under the cumulative usage model if you can't turn the power off. In fact, depending on how aware an Epic is of the EE, you might end up totally under it's sway before you realized it was a problem. Prof in particular comes to mind, as Tia makes a comment about not being able to get him back.

[Arcanist Lupus]

I think something to note here is that some of these powers are probably always on. Fortuity and Steelheart definitely, Prof maybe. I'm curious if Deathpoint's secondary power was something that was always on as well. Regardless, it seems like the EE would have more of an effect under the cumulative usage model if you can't turn the power off. In fact, depending on how aware an Epic is of the EE, you might end up totally under it's sway before you realized it was a problem. Prof in particular comes to mind, as Tia makes a comment about not being able to get him back.

 

 

I agree that the EE is probably most powerful if you can't/aren't turning your power off.  But if this is the case, the most drastically affected Epic should be Nightweilder, who is constantly using several of his powers.

Which to me implies that the cumulative effect of the EE is indifference/arrogance.

[Vortaan]

I agree that the EE is probably most powerful if you can't/aren't turning your power off.  But if this is the case, the most drastically affected Epic should be Nightweilder, who is constantly using several of his powers.

Which to me implies that the cumulative effect of the EE is indifference/arrogance.

 

To be fair, Nightwielder doesn't say a whole lot, nor do we get a lot of background info on what kind of atrocities he's committed in the past. He also seems to cling to some kind of Japanese cultural elements, so that might explain why he seems much more indifferent/arrogant to more European sensibilities. 

[name_here]

Conflux probably couldn't manipulate electricity on his own behalf to any great extent; someone with strong electromagnetic manipulation powers is basically impossible to confine in buildings constructed entirely out of ferromagnetic, conductive materials. It's quite possible his personal powers are fairly weak, limiting the manifestation of the Epic Effect, and after accidentally killing his wife he hasn't been using it himself.

 

The jackets apparently do actually have electronics that do something and stop working when they break. That's not mutually exclusive with Prof granting powers directly, though, the jackets could be weaker than directly granting powers to the user.

 

Edit: As for the nature of the effect itself, it seems that the signature of the Epic Effect is simply regarding other humans as lesser beings of no intrinsic value, fit only to serve or die. Refractionary once murdered a man and a random family in a nearby house for cutting her off in traffic, and apparently killing for the slightest offense is typical of Epics. The ones who show signs of contempt or rage without lashing out were in situations where the human who offended them is somehow important to their goals and cannot be murdered out of hand. Nightwielder holds back on murdering Davis because Davis hadn't done anything that would be expected to offend him and witnesses would wonder if he was provoked by his weakness being exposed, and slaughtering the lot of them would require replacing several bodyguards and secretaries and leave Steelheart short an arms dealer.

Edited October 9, 2013 by name_here