Making a Splinter of Adonalsium

[Kadrok]

These ideas have come from this thread, and the original idea in that thread of gathering a piece of every shard was Darnam's.

 

The question is... could someone (say... Hoid) make a splinter of Adonalsium if he gathered a piece of each Shard, and if so... what would he need to gather. At least two are givens as far as I am aware (Preservation and Ruin) but what of the other Shards we know? As we go I'll update this post with what we figure out or suggest.

 

Preservation: A Lerasium bead

Ruin: An Atium bead

Devotion:

Dominion:

Endowment: The tears of Edgli? A divine breath?

Honor: A gemheart? An honourspren?

Odium:

Cultivation:

[Kadrok]

The alternate name for this thread was "The Cosmere Cooking Circle". (I realise this is a double post, but I wanted it separated from my serious post).

[Two McMillion]

Devotion:

Dominion:

That would be a Seon and a Skaze, wouldn't it?

[Meg]

These ideas have come from this thread, and the original idea in that thread of gathering a piece of every shard was Darnam's.

 

The question is... could someone (say... Hoid) make a splinter of Adonalsium if he gathered a piece of each Shard, and if so... what would he need to gather. At least two are givens as far as I am aware (Preservation and Ruin) but what of the other Shards we know? As we go I'll update this post with what we figure out or suggest.

 

Preservation: A Lerasium bead

Ruin: An Atium bead

Devotion:

Dominion:

Endowment: The tears of Edgli? A divine breath?

Honor: A gemheart? An honourspren?

Odium:

Cultivation:

 

 

 

Such an interesting idea and I have to work.

 

My first ideas:

 

The beads are "condensed essences" of their Shard (says the wiki); I'd have them called "pieces of the physical manifestations" of their Shards, but that might be the same.

The beads are neither Splinters nor Slivers. 

 

The Divine Breath is a Splinter of Endowment. 

 

 

That would be a Seon and a Skaze, wouldn't it?

 

 

No . If anything it would be the Aons inside the Seons and Skazes. 

Those Aons are Splinters of Devotion. 

 

 

Where I want to go: I don't think a mixture of essences/Splinters/Slivers will serve to form a Splinter of Adonalsium if this is even possible. 

 

Therefrom results a new question in my mind: Why had Adonalsium been Shattered in its different Intents and not in Shards of all containing a mixture of the original? 

[Kadrok]

Therefrom results a new question in my mind: Why had Adonalsium been Shattered in its different Intents and not in Shards of all containing a mixture of the original? 

My gosh. Upvote. Why have I never asked that same question? Odium is splintering other shards... what would happen if he shattered them? Is there a difference? Would there be chunks of, say, Honor with subintents? I mean, according to the wiki, splinters of a shard have their own intents.

[Oudeis]

Interesting questions. Does he simply need ANY part of each Shard (be that Sliver, Splinter, physical body, cognitive aspect, or spiritweb?) I'm not saying he'd necessarily make a "Splinter of Adonalsium" with it, but maybe he could do SOMETHING?

 

It's my belief, though I admit I have no real evidence and I'm completely open to other ideas, that Hoid is trying to reform Adonalsium, or at least rejoin all the Shards into one thing which may not be the same thing as Adonalsium anymore.

 

I've heard the Shattering described as breaking a window. That each Shard is one slice of the "pie" of what used to be Adonalsium. We've seen with Ruin and Preservation that joining those two, specifically, is as easy as a single human taking up both Shards. Is that the case for any two Shards, I wonder? Were Ruin and Preservation originally side-by-side in the "pie" of Adonalsium? Could you join two Shards that didn't share a "border", as it were?

 

If this theory is unclear, I will try to get someone better than me to draw a bitmap or something to illustrate.

 

Back to my original thought: If Hoid is trying to join them all, maybe he doesn't know exactly how to do it, either. Maybe he's trying to take all these bits of the Shards, their bodies and Splinters and what-not, so he can begin experiments to figure out how they interact and what he can do to bring about their joining.

 

Side theory: We actually do have an idea of something Odium fears. He doesn't want to take on any other Intents. What if the way someone finally defeats him is that a Shardholder sacrifices his or her life to literally force their own Shard upon Rayse? We have WoB (does anyone have the quote?) that Shattering Harmony back into Ruin and Preservation isn't quite that easy. Rayse might not be able to divest himself of the second Shard once it's melded to his own, which might be something that distracts him long enough for someone else to stop him. Or maybe Rayse will end up being the one to take on EVERY other Shard, become the new Adonalsium, and live eternally with the regret of how he acted as Odium?

 

LAST SIDE THEORY I PROMISE. Has it already been suggested that Hoid might be the man who originally held the full Adonalsium?

 

EDIT: To add one random thought. What would happen if the bead of lerasium were placed in Ashe's Aon?

Edited September 30, 2013 by Darnam

[Morsk]

Side theory: We actually do have an idea of something Odium fears. He doesn't want to take on any other Intents. What if the way someone finally defeats him is that a Shardholder sacrifices his or her life to literally force their own Shard upon Rayse? We have WoB (does anyone have the quote?) that Shattering Harmony back into Ruin and Preservation isn't quite that easy. Rayse might not be able to divest himself of the second Shard once it's melded to his own, which might be something that distracts him long enough for someone else to stop him. Or maybe Rayse will end up being the one to take on EVERY other Shard, become the new Adonalsium, and live eternally with the regret of how he acted as Odium?

I want to see them force Odium to take Honor as a second Shard. It's probably not possible for just any Shard to do it, otherwise Preservation would have done it to Ruin. But Honor is good at binding things. Or maybe combine Roshar's 3 Shards into a big explosion that splits into 2-3 new, different Shards. That way Cultivation doesn't get left out. (My motivation is a bit cynical: I don't like honor. I think it competes with more civilized values like justice and individual rights, and that turning Honor into something else would be an improvement, not just a price to pay to defeat Odium.)

I think you're right about dumping extra Shards being difficult or impossible. Otherwise, wouldn't Rayse just take Dominion, use it for a few weeks to kill other Shards, then dump it?

[Mailliw73]

/>That would be a Seon and a Skaze, wouldn't it?

That's what I thought, but if not, could Devotions be some water from 'The Lake' that can disintegrate Elantrians?

[Meg]

We have WoB (does anyone have the quote?) that Shattering Harmony back into Ruin and Preservation isn't quite that easy.

.

.

Here it is:

 

Thanatos17901 ()

Thanks so much for all your writing, Way of Kings is the best book I've read in the last decade.

If Sazed were to die, would he drop the shards Ruin and Preservation, or would he drop the shard Harmony?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.)

 

source

 

The part in brackets seems to fit with you here:

 

Rayse might not be able to divest himself of the second Shard once it's melded to his own, which might be something that distracts him long enough for someone else to stop him.

 

 

LAST SIDE THEORY I PROMISE. Has it already been suggested that Hoid might be the man who originally held the full Adonalsium?

 

 

T.T.

5. Is Hoid a Herald, or a Shardholder, or something else entirely.

 

BS:

5. Hoid is something else entirely.

 

source

 

This quote might imply that Hoid wasn't the original holder of Adonalsium. And: Would he still live if his power was Shattered? Skai, Honor and (forgot the name) died when their power (Devotion, Dominion and Honor) were Splintered (or Shattered). 

 

 

[Kadrok]

To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if the full Adonalsium, whatever it was, didn't need a holder. The shards  seem to need a guiding intelligence to invest, so perhaps all the shards together, all their intents joined together, make up a kind of sentience that the individual pieces lack.

[Oudeis]

I want to see them force Odium to take Honor as a second Shard. It's probably not possible for just any Shard to do it, otherwise Preservation would have done it to Ruin.

 

Not sure Odium can take Honor; I was under the impression that we know Honor has been Splintered? I feel like Honor would need to be re-formed before it could be melded with Odium, and he's not likely to sit back and allow that. Presumably, he has some agency to interfere with the process.

 

Also, I agree with you that only certain Intents would have the capacity to force their Shard upon Odium. Preservation presumably is incapable of killing even himself (remember, he needed Vin to take up the power, a creature of Ruin and Preservation, someone who could kill to save). I could see Cultivation being able to "plant the seed" of its own Intent (if nothing else, it's at least not something directly opposed to the idea of Cultivation). I feel like Endowment is our best current bet, though Harmony might appreciate the idea of adding balance to Odium's extremity, and Sazed not only has experience melding Shards, but there's at least a chance that Harmony is more powerful than the other Shards, meaning it would balance out even more of Odium's Intent.

 

.

.

Here it is:

 

This quote might imply that Hoid wasn't the original holder of Adonalsium. And: Would he still live if his power was Shattered? Skai, Honor and (forgot the name) died when their power (Devotion, Dominion and Honor) were Splintered (or Shattered). 

 

Upvote for finding the quote! You're awesome.

 

Dominion was Skai. Devotion was Aona. Honor was Tanavast. In the case of Skai and Aona, we know that they died, and their Shards were Splintered. We're not sure of the order of events or how they affected each other. While we've never seen anyone give up a full Shard, we've only five cases of a Shardbearer dying, and only a really good look at two of those (Leras and Ati), so our knowledge of the process is hardly exhaustive. Also, there's no reason to assume the Shattering of Adonalsium is comparable to the Splintering of a Shard.

[Kadrok]

This quote might imply that Hoid wasn't the original holder of Adonalsium. And: Would he still live if his power was Shattered? Skai, Honor and (forgot the name) died when their power (Devotion, Dominion and Honor) were Splintered (or Shattered). 

I don't think it implies that he wasn't the original holder of Adonalsium (assuming Adonalsium had a holder, which I actually don't believe). The question gave three options:

 

Hoid is a Herald (Hoid isn't a Herald, given Brandon's answer)

Hoid is a Shardholder (Hoid isn't a Shardholder, given Brandon's answer)

Hoid is something else entirely (ie. not a Shardholder, or a Herald)

 

Hoid being "something else entirely" means Hoid could very well be anything that isn't a Herald or a Shardholder (or something similar). The quote on its own allows Hoid to be, for example, a former Shardholder, or a non-cosmere Wizard escaped from a D&D game, or Bela reborn from WoT depending on where we draw the arbitrary line of similarity. This quote certainly allows Hoid to be some kind of consciousness left behind when Adonalsium shattered (though I am, as I said, unconvinced of this).

[Shardlet]

 And: Would he still live if his power was Shattered? Skai, Honor and (forgot the name) died when their power (Devotion, Dominion and Honor) were Splintered (or Shattered). 

 

This is a kind of chicken or the egg thing.  Fact is we don't know how closely linked the shattering of a shard and the death of its holder is.  It may be that the shard was shattered and the holder died as a result, the holder died and the shard shattered because nobody around was willing to take up the shard, the shard was shattered and the holder was subsequently killed by other actions taken, or the holder was killed and the shard was subsequently shattered by other actions taken.  It could be that more than one of these possibilities have occurred in different cases (i.e., Dominion by one, Honor by another).  Must...Have...More...INFO!  . 

[Meg]

@Kadrok

I vote for Bela!

 

No, sincere, you're right. Because of those possibilities I wrote "might imply" (what I thought to be the right words).

 

@Shardlet

"This is a kind of chicken or the egg thing." That's right.

 

As it would be helpful to get more concrete definitions for some terms we use (and sometimes mix).

 

Edit: Another question came up in my mind: Did/do "Splinters" of Adonalsium (from when it was still whole) exist?

 

Edit2: Hoid also has the Moon Scepter. I really don't have any idea what this scepter is for or if this is/contains the power of a Shard (which? Devotion?) too.

Edited October 1, 2013 by Meg

[cem]

These ideas have come from this thread, and the original idea in that thread of gathering a piece of every shard was Darnam's.

 

The question is... could someone (say... Hoid) make a splinter of Adonalsium if he gathered a piece of each Shard, and if so... what would he need to gather. At least two are givens as far as I am aware (Preservation and Ruin) but what of the other Shards we know? As we go I'll update this post with what we figure out or suggest.

 

Preservation: A Lerasium bead

Ruin: An Atium bead

Devotion:

Dominion:

Endowment: The tears of Edgli? A divine breath?

Honor: A gemheart? An honourspren?

Odium:

Cultivation:

Since we are making a Splinter of Adonalsium, wouldn't it make more sense to combine the Splinters of all Shards rather than those condensed essence thingies?

 

Which would make the list:

Devotion: Aons at the center of Seons

Dominion: something to do with the Skaze

Endowment: Divine Breath

Honor and Cultivation: Sprens probably.

[Isomere]

Theory disclaimer: my thoughts on Splinters are not cannon.

From what we have in the books, Hoid is collecting the physical body of Adonalsium. This could be the precursor to a splinter, but I'd suggest something quite different may be going on here.

The basic problem for me is defining different types of investiture. I see a fundamental difference between what Sazed picked up in book 3 and what LTR picked up at the Well.mThey both make you a Shard, but Sazed is a shard permanently while TLR was only a shard until the power ran out. So we have at least two types of Investiture, permanent and temporary.

Permanent Investitures: these include Shards, Splinters, Slivers and the innate investiture granted to all humans at conception. Examples include Breath, Hemalurgic spikes, spren, Aons, whatever Sazed picked up in HoA, etc

Temporary Investitures: The first three types are the body of a shard and correspond to it's cognitive, spiritual and physical aspect.

1) Shardpools like the Well of Ascension, the pool beneath Hathsin, and the pool of Aona in Elantris.

2) Intangible power sources like the Mists of Preservation, the Black Vapor of Ruin, Stormlight, and the Dor.

3) Solid substances that can directly fuel magics: Atium, Lerasium, and the Moon Scepter.

4) The Ars Arcanum of AoL says that using metals for Allomancy starts a temporary investiture that ends once you stop burning the focus.

To create a Splinter, you need a certain threashold of the permanent type of investiture. Hoid should already have a tiny portion of Adonalsium's investiture as his innate gift at conception, but he would need much more of it to create a splinter of the God. To do this, he would need to collect permanent investiture from all the 16 shards. Breath, spren and Seons would be pretty easy. For the others he may need to use Hemalurgy to repeatedly collect people's innate investiture until the spike reached Splinter threshold.

Now what he is actually doing is collecting the Physical Body of the various Shards. If you somehow melted them together into a single alloy it would be the body of Adonalsium. I believe that using this as fuel for any magic system would destroy it, so he is probably planning something more grand in scale than a single bang would warrant. Well, unless it was the Big Bang he is after...

[Oudeis]

My personal theory is that Hoid doesn't know exactly what he's doing. Presumably, it has something to do with Adonalsium. Not every Shard has Splinters. I think he's gathering whatever he can, the "bodies," Splinters if he can find them, even the Shardpools, maybe. I think he has a purpose, but maybe not the whole plan. He wants to gather them all, see how he can get them to interact, maybe start some form of trial-run for whatever his ultimate plan for all the Shards is.

[hoser]

Apologies to all if this has already been discussed, but there are splinters of Adonalsium around.  At the Seattle signing, Brandon specifically said that there are spren that are splinters of Adonalsium on Roshar.  This would also imply that there might be splinters of Adonalsium on other planets.  He also provided a new (to me) definition of splinter, but that should probably go into a separate thread. 

[Kadrok]

Apologies to all if this has already been discussed, but there are splinters of Adonalsium around.  At the Seattle signing, Brandon specifically said that there are spren that are splinters of Adonalsium on Roshar.  This would also imply that there might be splinters of Adonalsium on other planets.  He also provided a new (to me) definition of splinter, but that should probably go into a separate thread. 

I did not know this. Would you be so kind as to link to all of this information so I can read it and salivate over the magical potential of these beings?

 

Also, I wonder what would happen if one bonded an Adonalsium spren... would you become a Surgebinder with access to every surge (like, a... Surgeborn... I guess, although with a much better name, obviously)? Or would the link grant you every manifestation of investiture in the Cosmere?

[Robot Aztec]

Well If you have equal preservation and equal ruin you end up with feruchemy but not allomancy so I think that if you bonded an andolsium spren then it would be equal everything so you would have boring powers instead of interesting ones because youd have no honor or whatever to tell it what to do.

So You could bond a spren and inhale stormlight and exhale stormlight and heal really quick while you did it and use fabrials but not do anything else since honor would be like ''do this'' and odium would be like ''do the opposit of this'' so they would cancel.

[Kadrok]

Honour and Odium are opposites? That doesn't seem right. As for the rest... the Adonalsium is in spren form, on Roshar, which I imagine shapes it along Surgebinding lines...

[hoser]

I did not know this. Would you be so kind as to link to all of this information so I can read it and salivate over the magical potential of these beings?

Shardlet made a recording, which I imagine will be available soon.  Checking in on the Events, Signings and Stalking section should get you there. 

 

Also, I wonder what would happen if one bonded an Adonalsium spren... would you become a Surgebinder with access to every surge (like, a... Surgeborn... I guess, although with a much better name, obviously)? Or would the link grant you every manifestation of investiture in the Cosmere?

That would be amazing, although I wonder whether the whole bonding thing has to do with honor.  I find myself wondering about the face in the storm and the voice that Kaladin heard in the stormriding dream. 

[Meg]

The basic problem for me is defining different types of investiture. I see a fundamental difference between what Sazed picked up in book 3 and what LTR picked up at the Well.mThey both make you a Shard, but Sazed is a shard permanently while TLR was only a shard until the power ran out. So we have at least two types of Investiture, permanent and temporary.

 

When I read that paragraph something felt wrong to me. So I've reread it a few times, and then I saw it: You compare Sazed with TLR and say that "both make you a Shard." I didn't understand Mistborn that way. In my understanding picking up the power at the Well of Ascension makes one a Sliver (not a Shard). When Sazed took up the powers of Preservation and Ruin both of them were mostly free, it were more or less the raw powers of both, that Sazed took up. The Well of Ascension however holds only a piece of Preservation (therefor it didn't grant becoming a Shard).

 

If I'm wrong I'd appreciate a short explanation.

[Shardlet]

I think both of Isomere and Meg are a little off here.  TLR was never a Shard, even briefly.  He weilded a large portion of the power of Preservation, but Leras was still alive and still in 'possession' of his shard.  TLR was a sliver because he held the power of a Shard for a time.  Similarly, Vin was a splinter sliver (because she held the power of a shard and released it) before she took up the shard Preservation following Leras's death.  Brandon likens a splinter sliver to a balloon that has been inflated and then deflated.  It is changed from it's original (human) form because it held all that air (power) but no longer has the air in it.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Shardlet

[Robot Aztec]

Do You mean splinter or sliver I am confused about what you are saying there?