Theory : Difference between Epics and High Epics [SPOILERS]

[Oudeis]

I have a theory. Based on nothing very much more than a hunch.

I think all Epics are granted the same baseline level of powers. Maybe some specific abilities are more useful than others (just ask "I can talk to cheese" man) but at sheer power, they were all the same.

What's the difference then between High Epics and normal Epics? I'm glad you asked that, voice-in-my-head.

The Tensors allow people to use the power of an Epic. David was naturally amazing with them. Tia was alright. Why the difference?

It is my belief that there is some human trait, maybe the ability to improvise, maybe cunning, imagination, or just some ephemeral trait. I think all humans have it, to a greater or lesser extent. Usually it doesn't mean anything, since you don't have Epic power.

But here's my hypothesis. The High Epics are the ones who a)are granted power by Calamity, b)got prime invulnerability and a useful offensive power, and c)had this je-ne-sais-quality.

My only evidence is David. After a week, he was as good with the tensors as Cody, who'd been using them months (years?), and three days after seeing Prof pull a trick, he was replicating it. How? I think David never got an Epic power, but had the inherent quality that would have made him a High Epic.

 

EDIT: Caught a typo.

Edited September 29, 2013 by Darnam

[Mageling]

That's a very interesting theory. My instinct places this trait as determination. I don't have any real evidence for this since David is the only viewpoint character in this book, but Meghan and David both came off as very determined people.

[Kurkistan]

So how would the weak epic during the Fortuity hit (can't recall his name: infinite handgun-bullets guy) have benefited from possessing this X factor? More infinite bullets? It seems that some powers are simply on-off, and don't benefit from skill/nuance in any real way.

[Oudeis]

So how would the weak epic during the Fortuity hit (can't recall his name: infinite handgun-bullets guy) have benefited from possessing this X factor? More infinite bullets? It seems that some powers are simply on-off, and don't benefit from skill/nuance in any real way.

 

1. Curveball.

 

2. I think you're saying that his is a power that cannot obviously BE leveled up, and I'm going to respond accordingly. If I've misunderstood you, I apologize.

 

I will admit your question makes me less certain of my theory, since now I sort of have to wrap it around this guy, it doesn't fit as nicely as I had hoped.

 

If this guy had been stronger, maybe he would have been able to conjure infinite ammo for rifles, maybe grenade launchers. Maybe he could have just called darts out of mid-air to throw. Maybe he could have powered the gauss gun forever.

 

Or, perhaps this was a silly secondary power. Maybe if he'd had more of this x-factor, he would have gotten a suite of other powers, and his infinite handgun ammo would have been nothing more than a footnote.

[Gloom]

I believe you're missing a few key factors. Intelligence may be a factor, but not a huge factor. Imagination combined with a hunger for power may have been more important. I personally believe that an epics subconscious mind and nature of their character may have had a large part in what powers they were granted. I would agree that every epic may have had access to an equally large pool of energy, but once they believed they had reached their potential, they subconsciously closed the door to additional power. They decided this is my power set and once that was decided, it became so. The small minded would be self limiting.

 

In the case of Curveball, had his powers developed further, he could have had the ability to create any type of ammo for any weapon, he could have been able to gift other weapons with unlimited ammunition capacity, he could have imagined himself impervious to bullets, and armed every weapon in Steelhearts empire, tanks and choppers included. He may even have been able to summon/create weapons instantly had he reached his full potential. But he was a thug, he even fired his weapon gangster style. He lacked the imagination to really fulfill the potential of his power set.

[name_here]

The Epic classification system doesn't seem to be particularly rigorous. People are High Epics if it is not possible to kill them without specifically preventing them from making use of their powers. Faultline possessed the power to manipulate earth on a massive scale, but she wasn't a High Epic because she would die if someone simply shot her. Fortuity has a much more localized and less grand power, but he only died via a very precise yet unplanned sequence of events, so he is a High Epic.

 

Without any known instances of people moving up in the ranks, it's impossible to say if powers can get broader by becoming stronger. That said, our admittedly limited sample set does indicate that the Epics with more powerful abilities also have more and broader abilities. Curveball's power may have generalized out to matter creation if he were more powerful, or it may have allowed him to fire a Metalstorm pistol continuously at a million rounds per minute.

[Kurkistan]

To note, I believe Conflux was counted as a High Epic, despite his vulnerability.

[name_here]

Ah, it appears you are correct, although it's possible he's filed under High Epic because everyone assumed his personal powers were proportional to his ability to fuel the entire city.

[Kurkistan]

Which assumption was correct, so there's that.

 

Also, David and essentially everyone else who bothered to keep track were pretty comfortable concluding that he was physically vulnerable, all while still calling him a High Epic. I think the dowser actually registered him as absurdly powerful, too.

[name_here]

Eh, Prof apparently plausibly threatened him with a gun when he was awake; the direct powers he displayed were extremely limited in breadth. I don't know whether charging electronics is his only power, or he's just unwilling to use any others. But given the tendency of Epics to keep secondary powers in reserve for when someone counters their primary, it would generally be safest for other characters to assume anyone who can power an entire city has some additional direct combat power. Or, heck, the guy can give other people the ability to power a 15-foot tall robot suit; he might have a Titan Engine in the garage.

 

Given the particular super-powered anime series I've been watching lately, I have a very high opinion on the status of electromagnetic powers, and am willing to declare that if Conflux can freely manipulate charge and current to extreme voltages, he very well counts as a High Epic by my definition. Even if his powers don't let him magnetically manipulate objects, they'd still be pretty substantial.

Edited October 8, 2013 by name_here

[Kurkistan]

Sure, sure he can be a High Epic. I was just disputing the need to have a "prime invincibility" to really count as one—despite David saying it was a requirement, actually.

 

Railguns are always threatening, I would say.

 

EDIT: Ah, I misread you. I didn't see that you were making a special distinction when you said "personal powers". Yes, I can imagine Conflux doing some electricity-fu, especially given that we know he can electrocute people even by accident.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Kurkistan

[name_here]

Well, rechecking the book, apparently Prime Invincibilty users are actually a subset of High Epics; it's just that all the other High Epics the Reckoners target have Prime Invincibility, hence the confusion.

[Kobold King]

I have a theory. Based on nothing very much more than a hunch.

I think all Epics are granted the same baseline level of powers. Maybe some specific abilities are more useful than others (just ask "I can talk to cheese" man) but at sheer power, they were all the same.

What's the difference then between High Epics and normal Epics? I'm glad you asked that, voice-in-my-head.

The Tensors allow people to use the power of an Epic. David was naturally amazing with them. Tia was alright. Why the difference?

It is my belief that there is some human trait, maybe the ability to improvise, maybe cunning, imagination, or just some ephemeral trait. I think all humans have it, to a greater or lesser extent. Usually it doesn't mean anything, since you don't have Epic power.

But here's my hypothesis. The High Epics are the ones who a)are granted power by Calamity, b)got prime invulnerability and a useful offensive power, and c)had this je-ne-sais-quality.

My only evidence is David. After a week, he was as good with the tensors as Cody, who'd been using them months (years?), and three days after seeing Prof pull a trick, he was replicating it. How? I think David never got an Epic power, but had the inherent quality that would have made him a High Epic.

 

EDIT: Caught a typo.

 

This is very interesting, and I have an idea of what that ephemeral quality is.

 

Hatred.

 

Hatred and contempt are what drives an Epic, and nowhere is it more apparent than in High Epics like Steelheart or Nightwielder. It is also the most notable Epic-like trait that separates David from Tia and the other Reckoners. Throughout the novel, David is shown to be consumed by his loathing for Steelheart. If hatred truly is a fundamental characteristic of Epic powers, then it only makes sense that a particularly hateful person could use a gifted ability with more skill than anyone else.

 

Hatred is also one of the most-stressed traits that David has in common with Prof, who is a High Epic. I would be genuinely surprised if the mental act of hatred did not turn out to be very important in Epic-ology.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

I have a theory. Based on nothing very much more than a hunch.

I think all Epics are granted the same baseline level of powers. Maybe some specific abilities are more useful than others (just ask "I can talk to cheese" man) but at sheer power, they were all the same.

What's the difference then between High Epics and normal Epics? I'm glad you asked that, voice-in-my-head.

The Tensors allow people to use the power of an Epic. David was naturally amazing with them. Tia was alright. Why the difference?

It is my belief that there is some human trait, maybe the ability to improvise, maybe cunning, imagination, or just some ephemeral trait. I think all humans have it, to a greater or lesser extent. Usually it doesn't mean anything, since you don't have Epic power.

But here's my hypothesis. The High Epics are the ones who a)are granted power by Calamity, b)got prime invulnerability and a useful offensive power, and c)had this je-ne-sais-quality.

My only evidence is David. After a week, he was as good with the tensors as Cody, who'd been using them months (years?), and three days after seeing Prof pull a trick, he was replicating it. How? I think David never got an Epic power, but had the inherent quality that would have made him a High Epic.

 

EDIT: Caught a typo.

 

 

This is very interesting, and I have an idea of what that ephemeral quality is.

 

Hatred.

 

Hatred and contempt are what drives an Epic, and nowhere is it more apparent than in High Epics like Steelheart or Nightwielder. It is also the most notable Epic-like trait that separates David from Tia and the other Reckoners. Throughout the novel, David is shown to be consumed by his loathing for Steelheart. If hatred truly is a fundamental characteristic of Epic powers, then it only makes sense that a particularly hateful person could use a gifted ability with more skill than anyone else.

 

Hatred is also one of the most-stressed traits that David has in common with Prof, who is a High Epic. I would be genuinely surprised if the mental act of hatred did not turn out to be very important in Epic-ology.

 

I also think that the chief characteristic distinguishing David from High Epics is self-interest. Steelheart's hatred was entirely self-serving: He took over the city and ruled it to sate his own ego. David's obsession with killing Steelheart stemmed from his father's death, yes, but we also see evidence of that hatred being channeled in more positive ways. David makes special note of the way ordinary people suffer under Steelheart's regime; he tells us about how teaching is now a high-class profession, how "you could be casually killed by an Epic" for no reason at all, how the Diggers went insane, how ordinary people aren't allowed to own firearms and are thus defenseless, etc. His hatred of Steelheart leads him to focus at least part of his attention on others, and to pursue revenge to make their lives better. Steelheart's hatred, on the other hand, leads him to focus entirely on himself to the extent he concludes he is actually a god. 

[Edgedancer]

This is very interesting, and I have an idea of what that ephemeral quality is.

 

Hatred.

 

Hatred and contempt are what drives an Epic, and nowhere is it more apparent than in High Epics like Steelheart or Nightwielder. It is also the most notable Epic-like trait that separates David from Tia and the other Reckoners. Throughout the novel, David is shown to be consumed by his loathing for Steelheart. If hatred truly is a fundamental characteristic of Epic powers, then it only makes sense that a particularly hateful person could use a gifted ability with more skill than anyone else.

 

Hatred is also one of the most-stressed traits that David has in common with Prof, who is a High Epic. I would be genuinely surprised if the mental act of hatred did not turn out to be very important in Epic-ology.

It´s an interesting thought and a logical one.

 

Interesting of note is that, from what we have seen, the powers themselves cause said hatred in the Epic once used, If we continue this line of reasoning it would mean that an Epic automatically becomes better with using his powers the more he uses them and should quickly gain an almost instinctual understanding of them.

 

Another detail to relevance would be that Epic powers, even when gifted, appear to work by the same corrupting guidelines than normal, just weaker. In this case it makes even more sense that a Vanilla closer to the Epic "ideal" (as in hateful) would faster learn to use Epic powers.

[killersquirrel59]

I also think that the chief characteristic distinguishing David from High Epics is self-interest. Steelheart's hatred was entirely self-serving: He took over the city and ruled it to sate his own ego. David's obsession with killing Steelheart stemmed from his father's death, yes, but we also see evidence of that hatred being channeled in more positive ways. David makes special note of the way ordinary people suffer under Steelheart's regime; he tells us about how teaching is now a high-class profession, how "you could be casually killed by an Epic" for no reason at all, how the Diggers went insane, how ordinary people aren't allowed to own firearms and are thus defenseless, etc. His hatred of Steelheart leads him to focus at least part of his attention on others, and to pursue revenge to make their lives better. Steelheart's hatred, on the other hand, leads him to focus entirely on himself to the extent he concludes he is actually a god. 

I really like this idea. It falls pretty closely in line with some theorycrafting I've been doing lately.

 

I've been doing some experimentation (pre-theorycrafting) of trying to imagine Calamity as a Shard. I know that Steelheart is not Cosmere, but thinking of it that way provides a useful framework.

 

Given the traits that are exemplified by the most powerful of Epics, I concluded to look at Calamity as the Shard Vanity. Since Shards usually give their Investiture to those who most exemplify their traits in some way (most obvious on Sel and Roshar) I started looking at the personality traits of the Epics and the way their powers manifested. Think about the known Epics. Each of them has a power or powers that can be extremely flashy and obvious (even if they aren't always used that way, none of them are notably subtle with the possible exception of Fortuity). Combining that with the personality traits of those who we've seen, all of them have a need to do something grand. Think about Deathpoint's speech in the bank in the prologue. Why is he going to rob a bank? He doesn't need the money. He does it because he can. He needs to show off. This is a trait exemplified by pretty much every epic out there: an inherent need to preen and show how powerful they are. 

[Lord Tavash Shar]

I was also looking at this after re reading Stealheart and Mitosis and was thinking along similar lines with a few changes I would like to run past you.

 

What if its not hatred but Self Loathing that makes an Epic?

I was not strong enough. I was not fast enough. If only I could see the future. If only I could run the whole band myself.

Feelings of self doubt, Personal inadequacy, and regret as the baseline for an epics powers. With the use of those same powers specifically easing their doubts and personal pain or regret.

 

This theory would require more information on the past of epics like Steelheart and the Prof. but it makes sense in regard to psychology. Many people after experiencing trauma deal with the stress of these situations by imagining how it would have gone differently If Only.

 

This would also explain many of their weaknesses. If only someone did not fear me I would have an equal, If only I could step into the light I would not feel like a ghost, If only I did not hate this music I could play what I want.

This becomes a personal issue for the Epic to overcome, Developing powers and abilities to compensate for trauma becomes the influence of an Entity trying to help without understanding human's and there nature.

It tries to ease a creatures mental pain by easing the feelings that cause it. The human gains confidence and power. But looses the feelings that help keep them grounded in reality and stable socially. Megalomania sets in, and with the physical changes to compensate for what they lack they become 'evil'.

 

This even explains gifters. Sometimes trauma is related to wanting to help others, Look at profs fast healing, physical damage shield, and Tensor powers.

Now imagine someone like that in a disaster area like 9/11, He can help the trapped and pained. both himself and other rescue workers and even the victims.

My only problem with my theory is that it ties everything up a Little TOO neatly. I do not think of myself as anything more than an ST or GM most days so the fact that it ties up everything so well feels suspect to me.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Lord Tavash Shar

[Steel]

I have a theory, based upon your theory. I think it may be weakness of will or insecurity that makes an Epic. This may sound odd, but here's my thoughts on it. Almost very Epic, discounting Conflux, who I will discuss later, has been extremely well guarded, and take every measure to protect themselves. Although these Epics can probably protect themselves, but they still take extreme measures to make sure that they are not attacked. This conveys a feeling of paranoid insecurity. Moreover, the fact that all of them were seized by the power, and almost immediately corrupted, is evidence of their weakness of will. In this, Mageling, I agree/disagree with your theorizing, since determination could be a trait within some Epics, but determination with no purpose is useless. Conflux, on the other hand, seems to be perfectly 'docile', and is unable to resist anything. This is also proof that a trait the causes one to become an epic is weakness of will, either to be corrupted by your power, or weakened by your power.

[Lord Tavash Shar]

I can actually see this a valid component of the theory I posted. Past and insecurity bring on the change to an epic in some way as an overall theme actually makes sense.

[Edgedancer]

On the Self Loathing: Could be but if Calamity wants to help them to get over it, why would it make the thing that they loath about themselve their weakness and as such their eternal chain?

Furthermore,I think you have Mitosis mind set reversed. He saw nothing wrong with his own taste, he was in fact quite convinced of his superiority in this matter and, to me, the scene seemed to sincere for it to be Calamity´s effect.

Out of curiosity, in which situation does someone think, if only I could kill have killed him/them all by pointing at him/them?

 

I have a theory, based upon your theory. I think it may be weakness of will or insecurity that makes an Epic. This may sound odd, but here's my thoughts on it. Almost very Epic, discounting Conflux, who I will discuss later, has been extremely well guarded, and take every measure to protect themselves. Although these Epics can probably protect themselves, but they still take extreme measures to make sure that they are not attacked. This conveys a feeling of paranoid insecurity. Moreover, the fact that all of them were seized by the power, and almost immediately corrupted, is evidence of their weakness of will. In this, Mageling, I agree/disagree with your theorizing, since determination could be a trait within some Epics, but determination with no purpose is useless. Conflux, on the other hand, seems to be perfectly 'docile', and is unable to resist anything. This is also proof that a trait the causes one to become an epic is weakness of will, either to be corrupted by your power, or weakened by your power.

So how does Fortuity going gambling with random girls (who are his weakness), Nightwielder going to an arms dealer as well as participating in a counter-raid against the Reckoners, Mitosis actively seeking out the guy that killed Steelheart and Prof setting himself up to fight Steelheart mano a mano fit into this?

 

Really, the only Epic we see that goes up and beyond for their own security is Steelheart, who may simply be paranoid. Spark, we even know about an Epic that will star in Firefight that

is known as "the person who’s been destroying cities all across the Fractured States" which doesn´t sound like someone that is weak-willed, insecure or generally trying to keep himself safe.

[Lord Tavash Shar]

I have unfortunately more than once wished that I could think and have someone on the other side of a telephone line drop dead right there. Its not as uncommon as you would think.

 

So maybe not hatred or self loathing so much as STRONG emotions? The kind of knee jerk response a Father has on hearing a Dead baby joke where all he wants to do is choke the life out of the speaker.

Most often these sorts of emotional responses are reactions after the fact to an event and in many cases they include a sort of "If Only I could" line of personal reasoning.

 

You would be hard pressed to make me believe that you have never wanted a forme of Investiture from the cosmer or another in certain circumstances.

 

Maybe that is what the Calamity dose. Here are your dreams both conscious and subconscious.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Lord Tavash Shar

[Edgedancer]

I have unfortunately more than once wished that I could think and have someone on the other side of a telephone line drop dead right there. Its not as uncommon as you would think.

 

So maybe not hatred or self loathing so much as STRONG emotions? The kind of knee jerk response a Father has on hearing a Dead baby joke where all he wants to do is choke the life out of the speaker.

Most often these sorts of emotional responses are reactions after the fact to an event and in many cases they include a sort of "If Only I could" line of personal reasoning.

 

You would be hard pressed to make me believe that you have never wanted a forme of Investiture from the cosmer or another in certain circumstances.

 

Maybe that is what the Calamity dose. Here are your dreams both conscious and subconscious.

So, what you mean is less of a live defining emotion or hatred (like Mitosis and his band) and instead that Epics snap, similar to Allomancers, just without the genetical requirement? That seems like even less of a system to be honest. As you´ve said everyone had that kind of knee jerk reaction, which means either it is random after all, just with some jerk irony added or everyone should be an Epic.

Plus, it kind of contradicts the biggest case example we have yet. (Mitosis as mentioned above)

[Lord Tavash Shar]

And of course I come up with my Best work over lunch:

@Edgedancer: The analogy of snapping may be much closer to the truth then we can get at this point.

 

Creativity/Strong Emotional response/ Receptive to Calamity.

 

I'm going to propose a 3 part requirement to become an epic. By nature that means that its got 3 levels of complexity. This means that it fails a KISS test but as we're in Sci-fi land that is fairly common.

 

First is emotion since its tied to the previous thoughts and was my gateway to the rest of this theory.

Conflux was just trying to power a Microwave because he was hungry. Mitosis Hated his band for not branching out and playing what he considered better music.

Now we have to make an assumption about a character that was not flushed out. Did Curveball like action movies as a kid? Did he want to be JUST LIKE those guys?
Prof we know was a teacher and seems to be very interested in trying to help people. Did something happen to his students?

 

What if emotion is a major part of the process for becoming an epic but not the catalyst? Think of it as the gas in the Car. You needed it to get anywhere but the Battery is what starts everything.

 

The second is a Creativity or Self Image. the Person becoming an epic has conscious and subconscious Ideas of what and how they want to be and this process carries them through. The power to BE a one man band, Never running out of bullets just like the action movies. Pointing and killing your target. Intelligence but also imagination of the person before they become an Epic is paramount in that this is what they are trying to become. The emotion is how much they want to get there. And in a sense they "Burn" emotions to fuel the powers there personal self image creates.

If Cueball were to become more powerful he would have say better reflexes and resistance because his self Image as an action hero is STRONGER is what would drive the system.

 

Finally I agree that there has got to be some outside influence and that the red star Calamity is probably the source of the epic mutation. a sort of car battery to Start or trigger the other two and culminate in an Epic.