Theory of Surges and Orders: An adaptation of Isomere's table

[Sabrina Stormshard]

Something cem pointed out to me while comparing charts: Travel is probably not the surge shared between the Stonewards and Skybreakers.  At least not if Skybreakers also have gravity (which I'm reasonably sure about).  If they have Gravity then they can fly and having Travel would be redundant, which I don't think Brandon would do.

 

Good point, I think I agree. I think Skybreakers should/will have some other humanity-related surge in the way plants have growth

Edited October 4, 2013 by Sabrina Stormshard

[Morsk]

I like the colors in the new table. And I agree with moving Travel. I really wanted something "about solids" to be between Metal and Stone, but it would leave the Skybreakers with the most boring powers ever.

Here's a completely different way of guessing the power though: the name Skybreaker sounds intimidating. It needs to break things, and skies can't even break. So ... lightning! It's sort of magnetism anyway, so it just means swapping those two positions, and calling it electricity instead. Flying lightning mages would definitely inspire the name Skybreakers. Also if there's a sky/earth theme between Honor and Cultivation, lightning goes with the "sky god" theme. (Never mind. It looks like Skybreakers aren't #10 after all, and my brainstorming is going nowhere.)

Another surge idea is sound. But I'm clueless where to put it. I so want Order 2 to have it, so they can climb walls like ninjas and silently kill people. But it doesn't work at all.

Edited October 6, 2013 by Morsk

[Sabrina Stormshard]

I concede that moving Travel would make sense as travel and gravity are v similar (will update over the weekend) but putting magnetism/electricity/charges between stone and flesh (9 and 10) seems odd; If it is a surge I'd expect it to be near metal, which would put it between 8 and 9.

[Natans]

Here's a completely different way of guessing the power though: the name Skybreaker sounds intimidating. It needs to break things, and skies can't even break. So ... lightning! It's sort of magnetism anyway, so it just means swapping those two positions, and calling it electricity instead. Flying lightning mages would definitely inspire the name Skybreakers. Also if there's a sky/earth theme between Honor and Cultivation, lightning goes with the "sky god" theme.

edit: Oh, another surge idea: sound! But I'm clueless where to put it. I so want Order 2 to have it, so they can climb walls like ninjas and silently kill people. But it doesn't work at all.

 

 

Ok after I readed this I remembered this interview.

 

 Will The Way of Kings series be based on one of the worlds and magic systems you have already created or are you inventing a totally new one for this series?

It will be new. There are going to be a lot of different types of magic in the world (I see there's a question below asking about that, so I'll answer more there.) But there will be two main magic systems for the first book. The first will deal with the manipulation of fundamental forces. (Gravity, Strong/weak atomic forces, Electromagnetic force, that sort of thing.) The second will be a transformation based magic system, whereby people can transform objects into one of the world's ten elements.

 

So if you put the Skybreakers wih the Electromagnetic force and the atmospheric pressure surges you possibelly would get a "Skybreaker". Nice Catch friend fit perfectly.

 

I like very such the Sky God & Earth God division that you proposed, is very classical the "romance" between this forces and we know that Cultivation had a thing with Honor, that would fit like glove and explain a lot.

 

 

By the way, anybody have a guess what could be strong/weak Atomic force ? I would relate this was a Honor surge in the place of the "heat" surge, The dustbringers could be the order that used this surge to make things go PUF!

 

Or we could have the "Nuclear Badass's" order =)

[Natans]

Sorry for the double post but I would like to propose something.

 

I was doing some research and finded this topic in the StormBlessed Forum

 

"On p 768 (US hardcover), Sigzil states I spread knowledge of cultures, peoples, thoughts, and dreams. I bring peace through understanding. It is the holy charge my order received from the Heralds themselves.

 

As the Radiants are the only groups that I have heard of that have received orders directly from the Heralds, this would make Worldsingers Radiants as well."

 

Now this make sense. To me the Knights Radiants Orders aren't  only about fighting, they also should have served like, "Wacther against the Desolation" and have a order that spreaded information fo sure would help the fight against the voidbringers.

 

This is so true that Nohadon in one of Dalinar's vision said that the the humand allways forgot the danger of the Desolation and for greed them would in-fight, what caused great danger when the desolations arrived. 

 

So the Wolrdsinger primary work between Desolation would help the natitions ,by mutual understanding, not fight among themselves making easy to them figth togetherin he desolation

 

This order could use the "travel" surge to help them in this task =)

 

Crackpot Theory?

[Sabrina Stormshard]

Sorry for the double post but I would like to propose something.

 

I was doing some research and finded this topic in the StormBlessed Forum

 

"On p 768 (US hardcover), Sigzil states I spread knowledge of cultures, peoples, thoughts, and dreams. I bring peace through understanding. It is the holy charge my order received from the Heralds themselves.

 

As the Radiants are the only groups that I have heard of that have received orders directly from the Heralds, this would make Worldsingers Radiants as well."

 

Now this make sense. To me the Knights Radiants Orders aren't  only about fighting, they also should have served like, "Wacther against the Desolation" and have a order that spreaded information fo sure would help the fight against the voidbringers.

 

This is so true that Nohadon in one of Dalinar's vision said that the the humand allways forgot the danger of the Desolation and for greed them would in-fight, what caused great danger when the desolations arrived. 

 

So the Wolrdsinger primary work between Desolation would help the natitions ,by mutual understanding, not fight among themselves making easy to them figth togetherin he desolation

 

This order could use the "travel" surge to help them in this task =)

 

Crackpot Theory?

 

Huh. I dont remember that bit. Could well be though!

[cem]

Sorry for the double post but I would like to propose something.

 

I was doing some research and finded this topic in the StormBlessed Forum

 

"On p 768 (US hardcover), Sigzil states I spread knowledge of cultures, peoples, thoughts, and dreams. I bring peace through understanding. It is the holy charge my order received from the Heralds themselves.

 

As the Radiants are the only groups that I have heard of that have received orders directly from the Heralds, this would make Worldsingers Radiants as well."

 

Now this make sense. To me the Knights Radiants Orders aren't  only about fighting, they also should have served like, "Wacther against the Desolation" and have a order that spreaded information fo sure would help the fight against the voidbringers.

 

This is so true that Nohadon in one of Dalinar's vision said that the the humand allways forgot the danger of the Desolation and for greed them would in-fight, what caused great danger when the desolations arrived. 

 

So the Wolrdsinger primary work between Desolation would help the natitions ,by mutual understanding, not fight among themselves making easy to them figth togetherin he desolation

 

This order could use the "travel" surge to help them in this task =)

 

Crackpot Theory?

I'm not so sure about this.

 

For one thing, Radiants can't be receiving their orders from the Heralds. They go back to being tortured between desolations. Even if they are, saying "the Worldsingers are Radiants because they both take orders from the Heralds" is like saying "apples are red, so are tomatoes, therefore tomatoes are apples."

 

Also,

 

Q: Did all orders of Knights Radiants use Shardplate?

A: It was available to all of them, and they could (all) use it. Many Knights (not Orders) chose not to. There were Knights who were not soldiers and had not interest in wearing Shardplate.

This is a WoB from a recent signing. It is paraphrased by Argent so we should ask him/her about the "not Orders" comment in parenthesis. But if it's accurate, then it would mean the theory is wrong.

[Natans]

I'm not so sure about this.

 

For one thing, Radiants can't be receiving their orders from the Heralds. They go back to being tortured between desolations. Even if they are, saying "the Worldsingers are Radiants because they both take orders from the Heralds" is like saying "apples are red, so are tomatoes, therefore tomatoes are apples."

 

Also,

 

This is a WoB from a recent signing. It is paraphrased by Argent so we should ask him/her about the "not Orders" comment in parenthesis. But if it's accurate, then it would mean the theory is wrong.

 

 

If not all radiants use plate, that mean that some Radiants have another function not related directly with fighting.

 

The "Wolrdsings" could be the PR of the radiants making propaganda to be sure that everybody would be prepared e united to fightin the desolation =)

 

Information is ,after all, power.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Natans

[Scott]

I just remembered, didn't the stoneward in Starfall seem to talk to someone far away?  Do we know if Communication is a surge?  If the worldsingers are an order dedicated to diplomatic areas, maybe this is one of their surges, possibly interchangable with Travel.

 

If Skybreakers do have Travel, then Stonewards could have Travel and Communication.  Worldsingers could be order 8 with Communication and something else.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Scott

[Sabrina Stormshard]

2 things; one, I've updated the first post to account for the whole 'travel' discussion, and added some stuff about voidbinding I've been considering.
 
two; on reflection, I'm not sure about the Worldsingers as a KR Order. Reason being Hoid is a WS. We also believe Hoid is a Lightweaver, so that might make Lightweaving and worldsinging the same order. Also, if as theorised ( http://coppermind.net/wiki/Worldsingers ) Hoid had a hand in putting together both the worldsingers and the worldbringers of terris, then it cant be a KRO as it would have been created by Hoid, not the Heralds of the Almighty
 
 
Separate point; Dawnsingers - KRO? Debate!
 
http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Dawnsingers
 
"Surely you know the story, that both glyphs and letters came from the Dawnsingers"
"Some think these chambers might have been cut by the Dawnsingers themselves"
"[What about the Dawnsingers? ... Couldnt they have created itThat isn't the kind of thing the Dawnsingers did. They were healers, kindly spren sent by theAlmighty to care for humans once we were forced out of the Tranquiline Halls"

[Argent]

I'll probably get to writing a more full comment, but I am leaving work in less than 5 minutes, so I wanted to make a note of something before I left (and potentially forgot!). There are two ideas I am interested in:

• Three are three types of Shardblades - one for each magic system, so to speak. One is "good" (Honorblades / Surgebinding), one is "neutral" (Shardblades / fabrials), and one is "evil" ("Voidblades"? / Voidbinding). Labels are loose, obviously.
• We kiiind of know how two of the magic systems work - Surgebinding works because of a (willing) bond between a spren and a human; fabrials work because a spren is (unwillingly) bound to an object, effectively trapping it but not killing it. 

It strikes me as obvious that the third magic system must work in a way that resembles Voidbringing, or "badness," somehow. Surgebinding and Honorblades are the nice kids in town, they don't harm spren in any way, shape, or form that we know of. Fabrials take the middle ground - they kind of hurt the spren by entrapping them, but don't actually kill or torture them. It stands to (shaky) reason that in order to Voidbind, you mustn't bond with a spren, and you mustn't imprison one - it almost feels to me like you have to devour one. Destroy it. Forcefully take its essence, its ability to manipulate the surges.

[Morsk]

For "Dawnsingers", I think of anything on Roshar with the word "Dawn" as really old, like Dawncities, Dawnchant, and whatever the Dawnshards are. Dawncities at least are older than the KRs because the Nohadon vision happened in one.

[Natans]

I'll probably get to writing a more full comment, but I am leaving work in less than 5 minutes, so I wanted to make a note of something before I left (and potentially forgot!). There are two ideas I am interested in:

• Three are three types of Shardblades - one for each magic system, so to speak. One is "good" (Honorblades / Surgebinding), one is "neutral" (Shardblades / fabrials), and one is "evil" ("Voidblades"? / Voidbinding). Labels are loose, obviously.
• We kiiind of know how two of the magic systems work - Surgebinding works because of a (willing) bond between a spren and a human; fabrials work because a spren is (unwillingly) bound to an object, effectively trapping it but not killing it. 

It strikes me as obvious that the third magic system must work in a way that resembles Voidbringing, or "badness," somehow. Surgebinding and Honorblades are the nice kids in town, they don't harm spren in any way, shape, or form that we know of. Fabrials take the middle ground - they kind of hurt the spren by entrapping them, but don't actually kill or torture them. It stands to (shaky) reason that in order to Voidbind, you mustn't bond with a spren, and you mustn't imprison one - it almost feels to me like you have to devour one. Destroy it. Forcefully take its essence, its ability to manipulate the surges.

 

 

The "dark spreen" in Dalinar's Purelake vision, maybe is a "voidbringer nahel spreen".

 

And about the magics in Roshar don't forget the Parshendis "forms". (spreens+storm= new form), Maybe forcing a spreen to bound in this ways is a "voidbringer" magic system.

 

I'm starting to think that the spreens are the "focus" in roshar, all magic originate from them in a way or another

Edited October 4, 2013 by Natans

[Sabrina Stormshard]

I'll probably get to writing a more full comment, but I am leaving work in less than 5 minutes, so I wanted to make a note of something before I left (and potentially forgot!). There are two ideas I am interested in:

• Three are three types of Shardblades - one for each magic system, so to speak. One is "good" (Honorblades / Surgebinding), one is "neutral" (Shardblades / fabrials), and one is "evil" ("Voidblades"? / Voidbinding). Labels are loose, obviously.
• We kiiind of know how two of the magic systems work - Surgebinding works because of a (willing) bond between a spren and a human; fabrials work because a spren is (unwillingly) bound to an object, effectively trapping it but not killing it. 

It strikes me as obvious that the third magic system must work in a way that resembles Voidbringing, or "badness," somehow. Surgebinding and Honorblades are the nice kids in town, they don't harm spren in any way, shape, or form that we know of. Fabrials take the middle ground - they kind of hurt the spren by entrapping them, but don't actually kill or torture them. It stands to (shaky) reason that in order to Voidbind, you mustn't bond with a spren, and you mustn't imprison one - it almost feels to me like you have to devour one. Destroy it. Forcefully take its essence, its ability to manipulate the surges.

 

 

I like it; and if spren are the souls of objects ( as Kaladin's mum said) maybe devouring a spren involves killing something?

[Morsk]

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3189-brandon-signing-120612/?p=66733

I'm pretty sure that Brandon pointed to the wrong symbol when he mentioned the Skybreakers.

It makes speculation about the placement of Dustbringers much harder. We don't even know which order Windrunners share Gravity with, and which is Pressure. And if Gravity isn't shared with Order 10, then the whole motivation for moving Travel doesn't count.

[Natans]

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3189-brandon-signing-120612/?p=66733It makes speculation about the placement of Dustbringers much harder. We don't even know which order Windrunners share Gravity with, and which is Pressure. And if Gravity isn't shared with Order 10, then the whole motivation for moving Travel doesn't count.

 

Back to the drawing board =)

[WeiryWriter]

If it does end up that Brandon pointed to the wrong symbol I'm willing to bet Skybreakers would be order 2, with Dustbringers being order 3.  Also the reason I have gravity as being shared between 1 and 10 is because pressure just makes sense as being between 1 and 2 which both have gaseous essences.

[11thorderknight]

As soon as I heard the name "Skybreakers" I immediately thought they'd be #2. It would mean they'd share Pressure with #1, and a likely candidate for Surge 2/3 would be something related to heat, and if you combine heat and atmospheric pressure you get.....weather! (including lightning). Makes total sense for that order to be called Skybreakers. 

 

Also - can someone explain where the name "Brightcallers" came from? It's been thrown about, but I don't see a source anywhere.

[Windrunner]

“By the Brightcaller’s rays,” Drehy said softly. “What . . . what was . . .”

 

I doubt it's really a name of an order. I'm fairly certain that it's a title of one of the Heralds, like "Stonesinew".

[Natans]

I doubt it's really a name of an order. I'm fairly certain that it's a title of one of the Heralds, like "Stonesinew".

 

I think is 50/50, maybe a order or a herald title, but, give the lack of data we have to use what we got =)

[Sabrina Stormshard]

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3189-brandon-signing-120612/?p=66733It makes speculation about the placement of Dustbringers much harder. We don't even know which order Windrunners share Gravity with, and which is Pressure. And if Gravity isn't shared with Order 10, then the whole motivation for moving Travel doesn't count.

 

 

If that's the case, then I think skybreakers = metal, travel, magnetism. I'm sure we've seen dustbringers combust and that sounds like heat and pressure to me more

[askthepaperclip]

Skybreakers are confirmed #2!  (WARNING: UNRELATED STEELHUNT SPOILERS) http://lunarubato.tumblr.com/post/63708891840/alright-so-ellie-lisa-brittany-and-i-went-to

(Credit to WeiryWinter for the link)

Edited October 11, 2013 by askthepaperclip

[WeiryWriter]

Skybreakers are confirmed #2!  (WARNING: UNRELATED STEELHUNT SPOILERS) http://lunarubato.tumblr.com/post/63708891840/alright-so-ellie-lisa-brittany-and-i-went-to

(Credit to WeiryWinter for the link)

 

Also Shallan is confirmed as Transformation/Light(lightweaving).

[cem]

Also the Stonewards and the Steelhunt Order. Though there wasn't much of a disagreement about them.

[Natans]

After this information (http://lunarubato.tumblr.com/post/63708891840/alright-so-ellie-lisa-brittany-and-i-went-to) I'm more sure that the orders are grouped in pairs.

 

Windrunners and Skybreaker - Are the top right Symbols, fact confirmed by Mr. Sanderson - Their Theme is Air, Sky

 

Stonewards are confirmed the top left order, and if I'm correct the Dustbringers are the Kalek order (in the preface this is the only order that he notice,what could be a sign that this order is the one associated with him) - Their Theme would be Earth.

 

Shallan order are the Lightwavers, and in the prologue of the book 2 Jasnah shadow act strange and she can cast "lightning soulcaster rays". Their theme would be Light/Darkeness

 

=)