Theory of Surges and Orders: An adaptation of Isomere's table

[Miyabi]

Yes, I would put them there for that same reason. It's the only place really that that makes sense. I'd put Growth between Plant and Crystal.

I would put Lightweavers with order 9 considering there always seems to be a connection with dust or dirt or smoke which are all earthy when Lightweaving happens.

EDIT:: And the combination of Transportatioin and Light makes sense for Lightweaving.

Edited October 1, 2013 by Miyabi

[cem]

Pretty sure 9th is Stonewards. Their armor glows amber. Plus Stonewards - rock&stone thing is pretty suggestive. Then there is Talenel being nicknamed Stonesinew.

[Miyabi]

I got myself all mixed up. I meant 8 due to the transportation and light connection, but then also looked at 9 and made the earth connection.

That was my mistake. So let's forget that part of my argument and just stick with the transportation of light and put them in order 8.

[Moogle]

I could see Travel being between 8 and 9, but wouldn't you think Light would be somewhat connected to 7 (or 5) for Jasnah's use of Soulcasting? 'Lightweaving' is very evocative of what Jasnah did with her ranged Soulcasting, and there was that thing with her shadow...

Edited October 1, 2013 by Moogle

[Miyabi]

I asked Brandon that on Twitter during a QnA and he said Light was not one of Jasnah's Surges.

[WeiryWriter]

I would say Light was Shallan's other surge which would be shared with Order Five (which I think would have Light and Growth).  Lightweaver was a possible title for Shallan's book and there was a uncited quote (which no one knew where it came from or if it was actually true) that Shallan would have three apprenticeships, Jasnah, someone, and Hoid who we know uses lightweaving.

 

So basically Order Six = Lightweavers.

[Miyabi]

0.0

How did I ever miss that! Thanks Weiry, upvotes for you.

[Sabrina Stormshard]

Almost definitely the fabrial, I'd say. The gems on it, heliodor and topaz, are used to target the flesh and bones for healing. Or so goes the theory, which I support, because Order 4 not having Growth would be... odd.

 

That is a fantastic idea. I looked at the gems and thought, topaz and heliodor, growth must belong to the corresponding orders, but the targeting idea is great!

[11thorderknight]

Two things - first, where did the name "Brightcallers" appear? I totally missed that in the published material, but people are discussing it as though it's been out there for a while....

 

Second, regarding Lightweavers. Brandon at some point stated that, although each Shardworld has it's own magic system, if two systems were to grant similar abilities, those abilities would work similarly. I think he used the example of healing, saying that Feruchemical gold works in a very similar manner to Regrowth. In AoL he even describes how Wayne needs Wax to peel off his burned skin so the new stuff can grown in. My point is that the illusion magic we've seen so far had been Hoid doing his thing with dusts and powders, and he somehow bends light (lightweaves?) around particles in the air to make illusions. So, I propose that the Order of Lightweavers is #3, associated with Spark. Being next to #2, Smoke, fits in very well with illusion magic as we've seen in so far in the Cosmere.

 

My theory as to the Surges, based on current info:

 

Surges                                                                                   Orders

 

10-1: Gravity

                                                                                              1. Windrunners

1-2: Pressure

                                                                                              2. Dustbringers ? (or maybe Skybreakers)

2-3:  ? (either heat or light or a combination)

                                                                                              3. Lightweavers

3-4: REDACTED (steelhunt)

                                                                                              4. REDACTED (steelhunt)

4-5: REDACTED (steelhunt)

                                                                                              5. ???

5-6: ???

                                                                                              6. ???

6-7: Change (soulcasting, shared by Shallan and Jasnah)

                                                                                              7. ???

7-8: ??? (Jasnah's other surge)

                                                                                              8. ???

8-9: ? Travel

                                                                                              9. Stonewards

9-10: ? Strength (thinking of something to go between Flesh and Stone)

                                                                                              10. Skybreakers ? (per WoB)

[Natans]

Just a question, the  travel surge was confimed or is scepulation ?  

Edited October 2, 2013 by Natans

[Morsk]

Travel is named as a surge here:

So what do I mean by twenty or thirty magic systems in Kings? Hard to say, as I don't want to give spoilers. I have groupings of abilities that have to deal with a certain theme. Transformation, Travel, Pressure and Gravity, that sort of thing. By one way of counting, there are thirty of these—though by another way of grouping them together, there are closer to ten.

It's from 2009 so I don't know if it's really the canon name or not, but I think that's where people get it from.

[Natans]

Travel is named as a surge here:It's from 2009 so I don't know if it's really the canon name or not, but I think that's where people get it from.

 

Thank you kind sir,here some upvotes for you =)

 

Ok now make sense, travel surge I need update my personal Isomere table=)

[Morsk]

Lightweaver was a possible title for Shallan's book and there was a uncited quote (which no one knew where it came from or if it was actually true) that Shallan would have three apprenticeships, Jasnah, someone, and Hoid who we know uses lightweaving.

I remember that post too, because I tried to exploit it to support "Shallan is Brave/Obedient" which is my favorite theory to try to force to work. If she has all these apprenticeships, maybe she's becoming more obedient, to match her Order.

It's hard to get Shallan with both Transformation and Light without shuffling something somewhere. Light seems like it ought to be around Fire or Crystal, not off with Oil, Blood, and Plants. I grant that Shallan as #6 is far more likely, but putting Light way over there breaks a lot of themes. Dustbringers could be anywhere, Heat might not be a Surge, Memory probably isn't a Surge.

I really want Shallan to have Light so she can make illusions from her memories.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Morsk

[Isomere]

Looks like I need to update my personal isomere table too since it's pretty clear that I can't lean on Scadrial magic as much. I'm impressed with how much detail Sabrina packed into that image and love seeing so many people working on surge theories.

There is some discussion about the Honor / Cultivation split. I could definitely get behind a top=Honor / bottom=Cultivation arrangement. The way i see the two pupils of the dual-eye has Honor on top and Cultivation on bottom, and the color shift from brown to grey could reflect the investiture of each spren.

I'm still going to support Jasnah as order 5, but that forces me to give travel to someone else. I'd probably arrange them like this:

Surges:

1 Gravity

2 Pressure

3 Light

4 redacted

5 redacted

6 Transformation

7 Memory

8 ?? It's metal and oil so perhaps magnetism would work here.

9 Travel

10 Strength

Orders:

1 Windrunner

2 Dustbringer

3 Brightcaller

4 redacted

5 Jasnah

6 Shallan

7 ?

8 ?

9 Stoneward

10 Skybreaker

[Moogle]

It's hard to get Shallan with both Transformation and Light without shuffling something somewhere. Light seems like it ought to be around Fire or Crystal, not off with Oil, Blood, and Plants. I grant that Shallan as #6 is far more likely, but putting Light way over there breaks a lot of themes. Dustbringers could be anywhere, Heat might not be a Surge, Memory probably isn't a Surge.

 

Light would definitely fit with plants. They do need light to grow. I'd put 5+6 as sharing Light (making 5 Brightcallers, 6 Lightweavers), 6+7 as sharing Transformation. 2+3 can get Heat or something, which lets them have a sort of light. Notice how the picture of Nalan (Herald 2) in TWoK has a glowing sword. I have a suspicion that it's glowing because it's super hot, which could easily make Order 2 the Dustbringers (Heat + Pressure? Explosions galore!), though Order 3 could be a strong contender.

 

Of course, it could be that the Surge is not Light, but something that lets it seem like you can manipulate the sun's rays like Teft's story. I don't know what it would be besides Light, though. Maybe the Order in question Soulcast gigantic weightless lenses from air.

 

And yeah, Memory is almost definitely not a Surge. I sure hope the admins allow discussion of Steelhunt spoilers somewhere because talking about it indirectly is hard.

[Isomere]

Is the discussion of memory not being a surge part of the Assuredness Movement, or is there solid evidence to discount it?

[WeiryWriter]

I'm fairly confident that Memory is not a surge since it doesn't jive with what we understand of Surgebinding and it doesn't fit with the other surges.  To be honest Shallan's ability feels more like the Nightwatcher's boons/curses than anything else we know of magic on Roshar.

 

I also have made my own version of the Surgebinding chart, which out of deference to the current ruling on Steelhunt spoilers I will not be posting.  (If anyone wants to see it however I'm more than willing to PM it)

[cem]

Is the discussion of memory not being a surge part of the Assuredness Movement, or is there solid evidence to discount it?

lol.

There is no solid evidence as far as I'm aware of. But I'm sold on the idea Shallan is a Lightweaver. So a Light-Transformation combination makes sense to me.

 

I'm fairly confident that Memory is not a surge since it doesn't jive with what we understand of Surgebinding and it doesn't fit with the other surges.  To be honest Shallan's ability feels more like the Nightwatcher's boons/curses than anything else we know of magic on Roshar.

 

I also have made my own version of the Surgebinding chart, which out of deference to the current ruling on Steelhunt spoilers I will not be posting.  (If anyone wants to see it however I'm more than willing to PM it)

PM me. I have my own as well and I'd love to compare notes.

[Morsk]

Is the discussion of memory not being a surge part of the Assuredness Movement, or is there solid evidence to discount it?

Oh, I meant it as a consequence of Shallan having Light, not as something that's obvious on its own.

[Isomere]

Memory definitely has links to Cultivation rather than Honor and works without stormlight. Shallan doesn't view it as Magical and she has never ventured far from home, but the Nightmother could be a possibility if someone else asked for the boon.

Shallan as a Lightweaver... I'm not yet convinced, but can't argue strongly against it. I really wanted to keep Lightweavers linked with order 4 since it fits so nicely with Eyes, Lucentia, and Crystal that have strong ties to focusing/creating/scattering light.

[Moogle]

Is the discussion of memory not being a surge part of the Assuredness Movement, or is there solid evidence to discount it?

 

Memory doesn't fit. All the Surges have to do with physical things, not mental things. Gravity, Pressure, Travel, and Transformation affect the physical realm (though yes Transformation involves Shadesmar, it doesn't affect you), they don't enhance your intelligence or perceptions. As well, <redacted>.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Moogle

[Sabrina Stormshard]

I've updated my first post (start of thread) as all your comments have led me to new conclusions, please take a look

Edited October 3, 2013 by Sabrina Stormshard

[WeiryWriter]

Something cem pointed out to me while comparing charts: Travel is probably not the surge shared between the Stonewards and Skybreakers.  At least not if Skybreakers also have gravity (which I'm reasonably sure about).  If they have Gravity then they can fly and having Travel would be redundant, which I don't think Brandon would do.

[Scott]

I agree with most of the updated table, it matches my notes, and makes sense in places where we differ.  I do think Travel is on the other side of the Stonewards though.  Magnetism could easily encompass quantum theory, which would make travel by superposition a possibility 

[Moogle]

Something cem pointed out to me while comparing charts: Travel is probably not the surge shared between the Stonewards and Skybreakers.  At least not if Skybreakers also have gravity (which I'm reasonably sure about).  If they have Gravity then they can fly and having Travel would be redundant, which I don't think Brandon would do.

 

I discussed the same thing, but I could see Travel and Gravity working together. You teleport with a boulder into the sky, then Lash it down. It'd be terrifying. I suppose a regular Windrunner could do that too, though, so I can see the arguments for Travel and Gravity being redundant. I am rather uncertain.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Moogle