89 posts in this topic

Please note: this theory is currently REDACTED due to steelhunt. Once certain info comes into the public domain I will unredact. If you have a steelhunt code already and want to discuss redacted areas privately, I am very happy to do so
 
This is mostly building on Isomere's theory: 
The Tanavallah: a Surgebinders Guide to Harmonics:
{http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3301-theory-the-tanavallah-a-surgebinders-guide-to-harmonics }
 
Please note a lot of this is my speculation, and getting thoughts down, please do add comments/refutations.
   
SURGEBINDING

 
Ok so here is the adaptation on the table at the back of WoK that Isomere put together: (LINK)
 
Here is Isomere's original version: (LINK)
 
And here is my adaptation. Working heavily off the table found on the Coppermind about the Ten Essences: (LINK)
 
Blanks are currently unguessed. Where it says 'see note' this is due to redaction
 
IMAGE PARTLY REDACTED
 
EDIT: Thanks to a number of fantastic comments, I've had a good rethink and have changed the table from the one here {LINKto the one here (also shown below): {LINK}
 
1jl1zd.jpg
 
The table has been developed thanks to discussion and analysis of Brandon's readings.
The large circles represent the Order of the Knights Radiants where the small represent the Surges.
 
The numbers on the picture correspond to the table (PARTLY REDACTED) below also provided for reference {LINK}:
 2mz0bpz.jpg
 
Main Changes and notes:
 
General:
Which parts are physical/cognitive Honor/Cultivation are up for debate, although I'm leaning towards top Honor, bottom Cultivation.
 
Number 1:
We know that the top right 2 surges (for 1) are Gravity and Pressure but not which way round (corresponding to the Windrunners. {LINK}  I think Gravity and Pressure are correctly assigned as pressure works better with Smoke than gravity.
 
Number 2:
Smoke & pressure > Dust. Seems to make sense. WoB is that Dustbringers ARE an order of the radiants. 
[ Signing 2 at about 27 mnutes ; thanks to Miyabi for pointing out]. The dustbringers are theorised to COMBUST items which also suggests heat, whereas light is used elsewhere in the table. {LINK}
 
Number 3:
Brightcallers are a theorised potential Order. This is the only place I can see them. It may be this order that can 'control the sunlight' by manipulating heat?
 
Number 4:
Redacted

Number 5:
Growth, Light, plants.
 
Number 6:
 
Working on the assumption this is where Shallan fits in. (Shalash/Shallan ties are well documented (creativity etc) importance of Blood, etc). Memory may be an extrapolation of light and sight abilities, and we know about the soulcasting.
 
We know that lightweaving makes an appearance in SA {www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='lightweaving'} . WeiryWriter noted the following: "Lightweaver was a possible title for Shallan's book and there was a uncited quote ...that Shallan would have three apprenticeships, Jasnah, someone, and Hoid who we know uses lightweaving." So it looks light Lighweavers fits well here, and means Light is attached to 5 and 6, which makes sense.
Complementing quotes can be found by searching for 'lightweaver' here: {LINK}
 
Number 7:
Jashan hints at the end of WoK that she has a different combination of surges than Shallan, and given they both share the ability to Soulcast it makes sense that Jasnah is here. The reason I've put her here and NOT 5 is that Jasnah is 'bad with organics' i.e. life forms, plants. Seems odd she would fit in 5. That hints that transportation is between 7 and 8.  
 
Number 9:
We have been told travel is one of the surges{www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='surges'} and Miyabi has stated Stonewards can travel, although I haven't seen the quote, her statement is here: {LINK}. It is certainly speculated due to the Stoneward suddenly appearing in Dalinar's vision.
 
We know that regrowth was combined in a fabrial using topaz and helidor and we have seen the order of stonewards use such a fabrial. This originally led me to suspect growth was between orders 9 and 10 however Moogle pointed out the gemstones could be there to Target bone and flesh, which makes more sense in the overall structure. Also, if growth was a Stoneward power they would not need to use a fabrial. {LINK}

Number 10:
We have confirmation that Order 10 is the Skybreakers. As Gravity manipulation would give the ability to fly, Travel is probably not a Skybreaker Surge and so must be between 8 and 9. { LINK - Search for Glyphs }
  
Double eye:
I've been thinking about the double-eye symbolism and it would make sense if the two pupils represented the merging of Honor and Cultivation. The double pupil (see image below correspond to the Flesh and Plants orders (5 and 10). This would suggest that order 10 (men) is part of Honor and order 5 (Plants) is part of Cultivation.
 
Also, note the links between orders (big circles). 5 and 10 are linked.
 
4 and 6 are linked to 5 (Cultivation)
1 and 9 are linked to 10 (Honor)
1 and 4  and 9 and 6 are linked; suggesting the counterpoints for Honor and Cultivation respectively?
2,3,7, and 8 are linked to the central point of the diagram, i.e. between 5 and 10, an equal mix of Honor and Cultivation.
 
I am coming to the view that the top half is more Honor, and the bottom half more Cultivation.
  
Cultivation: Plants, Blood, Crystal    {Loving, Learned, Creative, Healing, Giving, Honest}
Honor: Men, Air, Stone                    {Protecting, Dependable, Pious, Leading, Resourceful, Guiding}
Equal mix: Metal, Oil, Smoke, Fire   {Just, Confident, Brave, Obedient, Wise, Careful, Resolute, Builder}
 
TWoK_Front_Endsheet.jpg
 
 
VOIDBINDING
 
I've gone through the Theoryland archives and dug out the items from the following articles that I think are interesting to this discussion as they pertain to Voidbinding; (Keywords: Surges, surgebinding, voidbinding, shardblades.)
 
Also included are some WoK Quotes
 
We have also seen, in addition to the tables above, the table dubbed the ‘table of dissonance’: ( LINK )
 
tWoK_ENDSHEET-REAR-2-webres.jpg
 
It follows a similar layout to the double-eye of the Radiants and each of the surges (or voids, as I shall call them) is represented as a de-symmetrised version of the surge on the normal table; indicating, it seems, some sort of twisting of the surge.
 
Voidbinding is mentioned in WoK as having to do with trying to predict the future – that would suggest some manipulation of time, which is why I believe time is one of the voids.
 
We also know that there are 3 main over-arching magic systems: Surgebinding, voidbindings, and a third which is related to fabrials:

Q:You have told us there are more than 30 magical systems on Roshar. I am assuming there are 10 surgebindings and 10 voidbindings. Do the next 10 belong to another such classification? If yes, can you give us the name for it.
A: Fabrials are part of it.

 
Now, we know Szeth has similar abilities to Kaladin, a potential Windrunner, however:
 
Q:Does SzethsonsonVallano's Surgebinding require HonorSpren like Kaladin's?
A: No, it does not. (Hm....) Gold star to you.

 
Q:Is there a link with the fact that we know that Szeth is truthless and the fact that Honorspren are what cause Surgebinding? Is there a connection there?
A:There may be. I won't say. That's a RAFO.

 
Szeth isn't actually in an order of Knights Radiant. Something different is happening with Szeth that people have already begun to guess. And Kaladin isn't yet a Knight Radiant, but the powers he uses are those of the Windrunners, one of the orders of the Knights Radiant. Szeth is using the same power set.
 
The symbol stamped into the front of the first hardcover represents the Windrunners because of Kaladin's awakening as a Windrunner. Also because of Szeth, but mostly because of Kaladin
 
We know that glyphs can be written in many pictoral forms. In the surge table, they’re written to style as a sword (WoB), in the table of dissonance as (speculated) an animal, but the last quote suggests they represent the same overall glyph.
Additionally, we know that Szeth is using the same power set but is not using Radiant-powers.  And, we know that there are 3 sets of 10 powers; surges, voids and something relating to fabrials.
 
I hypothesise that voidbinding voids correspond to surgebinding surges, except for the manner in which one obtains these powers (spren-bond versus other means, possibly relating to Szeth’s oathstone). Therefore, if predicting the future is a voidbind (as is alluded to in WoK), some manipulation of time is also a surge. There may also be Void orders - Ghostbloods maybe?
 
There’s also an interesting extrapolation to do with Shardblades.
Syl has stated that she prefers Dalinar once he gave up ‘that thing he carried’ (his shardblade)
Also, we know that the Radiants abandoned their blades and Taravangian says to Szeth: “that monstrosity of a shardblade you carry”
 
Q: Was Syl’s appearance and behavior caused by Kaladin giving up his shardblade?
A: It was a major fundamental factor in what happened between them.

 
So it seems that honorspren/ radiant-binding spren have some aversion to shardblades for some reason; this may be why Szeth does not surgebind, but voidbinds? We also know that he is not allowed to give up his blade which ties in to this theory. This theory is slightly complicated by the fact that we are told:
 
Q: Is there a functional/structural difference between modern-day Shardplate and the stuff the Radiants wore? Did the Radiants have to use infused gems to keep their suits going or could they just 'breathe in' Stormlight and feed the suit off of their 'inhaled' reserves?
A: Something is different. You will find out what.

 
Q:Is there any ramifications to the holder of a shard blade for using a blade in a manner that it wasn't intended?
A:Depends on the type of Shardblade. (You have seen three different kinds in TWoK.) For most, no. For some, most certainly.

 
So we cannot be sure if this is Syl’s aversion to all shardblades or just one type. However, 3 types of shardblade could correspond to the 3 types of magic; Honorspren might only like honorblades, regular shardblades might be part of the fabrial set and Szeth’s ‘monstrosity’ might be some kind of voidblade.
 
Also, on the point of voidbinding, we know from Navani’s notebook translation { Link to wiki, search for Navanis Notebook } that fabrials are powered by trapped spren (you could say, a spren Bonded to a gemstone). Surgebinding required bonding to spren, but what about voidbinding? Szeth is the most likely potential voidbinder we have seen, and the only similar item I can think of is his oathstone. Some kind of oath, perhaps, secured in an item is necessary to gain voidbinding powers?
 
Q: With Szeth, the Assassin in White, is he tied to the [Oath]stone or is it a genetic thing or is it kind of like a spren?
A: RAFO

 
Q:What did Szeth do to become a Truthless, and is there anything else involved in being a Truthless that we haven't seen?"
A: Szeth was perceived as betraying his people in a fundamental way, and you will learn more about that when his book comes along.

 
Q:Is Szeth bound to a spren?
A: No. He's not.

 
Q: Was Vallano, Szeth's grandfather, also a Truthless? And if not, what did he do to disgrace the Shin?
A: No, Vallano was not Truthless. Szeth was a very respected member of his society, once. There are clues to what happened in his story, but you won't hear it in full until he gets his book. (Which will include his flashbacks.)

 
Q: Is Kaladin naturally stronger than Szeth in using Stormlight? Szeth can only hold onto it for a few minutes, but Kaladin has been shown to hold onto it for much longer. Or does it have to do with Kaladin having a spren?
A: Ah, so you all noticed that, did you. :) Glad you did. I have like a dozen things I nearly posted here, but all of them spoil a scene in Words of Radiance. So I'll just zip it for now.

 
Voidbinding and Surgebindings probably have their own set of limitations. Surgebindings may be more powerful but perhaps voidbing can be done to anyone, via an oath-bond, or perhaps it has more far-reaching applications.
 
Apologies for the ramblings!

Edited by Sabrina Stormshard
No Steelhunt spoilers on the boards for now.
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I just wanted to let you know that your updated table isn't showing up, which hampers people being able to clearly see what you're changing. :)

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Surge 7 can't be water, because Surge 6 is based on "Blood, non-oil liquids", which naturally includes water. Otherwise, I don't really have a whole lot to add.

Edited by Moogle
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Surge 7 can't be water, because Surge 6 is based on "Blood, non-oil liquids", which naturally includes water. Otherwise, I don't really have a whole lot to add.

I agree, I've changed it to oil compared to Isomere's original

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How do we discuss this without breaking the Steelhunt censor rules? That chapter is like treasure. There is almost as much info about Surgebinding in there as all we had before it.

 

Anyways, your question in red: I think time is going to end up being a surge. But there is no information or confirmation about it. There isn't even a hint from Brandon. I've looked. It's a pure guess but I think it's a good one. Though I imagine Surgebinding of it will work a bit differently than Allomancy time bubbles.

 

Would you mind PMing me your table? I have my own and am curious about yours. Especially where you placed the info from the Steelhunt Interlude. I am ambivalent between Orders 4 and 5 myself.

 

 

I hope this post was circumspect enough without being gibberish.

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Just an observation.

 

I noticed that all orders names revealed share a "theme" with other order.

 

Windrunners and Skybreaker - Air

 

Lightweavers and Brightcallers - Light

 

Stonewards and Dustbringers - Earth

 

Another set of coincidences.

 

The Windrunners and the Skybreaker, by the word of god, share one surge (gravity or atmospheric pressure I bet in the second).

 

The stonewards, that I believe is the order of Talanel also shares a surge with the order of Kalak. Kalak in the prelude of all order cited only the "Dustbringers" and the Soulcasting properties of the gem associeted with his order is metal. So in a long shot a guess that his order is the dustbringers, and rock(Talanel) and metal(Kalek) share the same theme.

 

Shallan and Jasnah orders share the transformation surge so they are neighborhood orders. Some people believe that Shallan order are the lightweavers, and for sure when Jasnah uses he soulcast power in distant targets she cast rays to "make contact" with victim, cast rays for sure can be interpreted as a Brightcaller so I guess that Jasnah order is the Brightcallers.

 

If I'm correct we have 3 groups of 2 orders that share a surge and a theme. 

 

And a I say more, i guess that one surge come from honor and the other comes from cultivation,what make the oathpact nothing more that the agreement between honor and cultivationto give form to the magic sytemof roshar =)

 

Crackpot theory, I know,but to me make sense.

 

Sorry for my musings =)

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It's not crackpot at all. Adjacent Orders share a Surge so they have one ability in three common. Jasnah and Shallan are both Soulcasters. Windrunners and Skybreakers can both do either Basic Lashing or Full Lashing, same with Windrunners and the 2nd Order. It's perfectly plausible they share themes.

 

BTW, is Brightcallers a confirmed Order? It sounds more like a nickname for one of the Heralds to me.

 

 

And a I say more, i guess that one surge come from honor and the other comes from cultivation,what make the oathpact nothing more that the agreement between honor and cultivationto give form to the magic sytemof roshar =)

Bold, I agree with. I think Surgebinding Investiture comes both from Cultivation and Honor. But I don't think it's categorized by surges. It's more likely half the Orders and Heralds are from Honor and half from Cultivation. If the spren are Splinters then I think half the Radiant sprens are Splinters of Honor and half of Cultivation. There are some things that support this in the Steelhunt Interlude.

Edited by cem
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There was some speculation in another post that Brightcallers, if they are an order, could manipulate sunlight which to me would fit with with Order 3, fire, light ,heat

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Bold, I agree with. I think Surgebinding Investiture comes both from Cultivation and Honor. But I don't think it's categorized by surges. It's more likely half the Orders and Heralds are from Honor and half from Cultivation. If the spren are Splinters then I think half the Radiant sprens are Splinters of Honor and half of Cultivation. There are some things that support this in the Steelhunt Interlude.

 

 I agree that half of the spreens are of cultivation and half are of honor, and say more the surges must follow the same logic(5 cultivation and 5 honor)

 

Transformation for sure are a cultivation's surge (fit very well in the nature of her shard).

 

About the Brightcallers, I'm not 100% sure if they are a order, but the name fit in the context so  =)

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 I agree that half of the spreens are of cultivation and half are of honor, and say more the surges must follow the same logic(5 cultivation and 5 honor)

 

Transformation for sure are a cultivation's surge (fit very well in the nature of her shard).

 

About the Brightcallers, I'm not 100% sure if they are a order, but the name fit in the context so  =)

How about gravity, atmospheric pressure, friction or travel? One Surge may fit Cultivation, two if you count whatever Surge Growth ability comes from but Honor is an abstract concept. You can't fit any of the Surges to Honor.

 

So I think upper side is Honor and lower side is Cultivation, and Surges are none.

 

Kaladin, for example, is a Windrunner and called the child of Tanavast and child of Honor in tWoK chapter 47 by who I'm guessing was Cultivation.

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How about gravity, atmospheric pressure, friction or travel? One Surge may fit Cultivation, two if you count whatever Surge Growth ability comes from but Honor is an abstract concept. You can't fit any of the Surges to Honor.

 

So I think upper side is Honor and lower side is Cultivation, and Surges are none.

 

Kaladin, for example, is a Windrunner and called the child of Tanavast and child of Honor in tWoK chapter 47 by who I'm guessing was Cultivation.

 

This is part of the issue I'm having, it would help if we knew what each Order's spren was; Honorspren is obvious, anything growthy is obvious but the rest...

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I don't think honorspren is obvious at all! Syl is an honorspren, but that doesn't mean she isn't also a windspren. Which, you have to admit, would make sense.

 

I suspect we've got two groups: honorspren and cryptics, each part Honor and part Cultivation (though in differing ratios). It might be that cryptics are themselves honorspren, though.

Edited by Moogle
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I don't think honorspren is obvious at all! Syl is an honorspren, but that doesn't mean she isn't also a windspren. Which, you have to admit, would make sense.

 

I suspect we've got two groups: honorspren and cryptics, each part Honor and part Cultivation (though in differing ratios). It might be that cryptics are themselves honorspren, though.

There are more than two groups. Very, very likely there is one spren for each Order. Jasnah and Shallan are bonded with different spren, that's in the chapter of tWoK where they discuss the cryptics after Shallan Soulcasts.

 

And Syl is not a windspren but honorspren are cousins to windspren. Brandon said that in Reddit, IIRC.

 

I'm also guessing you don't have a Steelhunt code?

Edited by cem
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There are more than two groups. Very, very likely there is one spren for each Order. Jasnah and Shallan are bonded with different spren, that's in the chapter of tWoK where they discuss the cryptics after Shallan Soulcasts.

 

And Syl is not a windspren but honorspren are cousins to windspren. Brandon said that in Reddit, IIRC.

 

I'm also guessing you don't have a Steelhunt code?

 

I found this:

 

ZAS

Nohadon mentioned that "All the spren aren’t as discerning as honorspren."

BRANDON SANDERSON

So there has been dissension among them about who gets to call themselves honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know "This is what defines an honorspren".

But the spren you are running into are all (something) of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able to be (something).

 

I don't think it's as simple as "Windrunner sprens which are like windspren are honorspren". I think honorspren is more of a category, like you could have emotionspren - fearspren, gloryspren, etc. I think Syl is a windspren who is also an honorspren. Honorspren would just refer to one who is conscious/bonded to someone, and also more of Honor than Cultivation. A cryptic would then be a spren who is more of Cultivation than Honor, though I admit that could be stretching it. A quick search-through of the interview database only gave me this quote and some unrelated stuff.

 

You might also consider this a slipup by Brandon. He didn't directly say Syl wasn't a windspren here:

 

Question

Because she's windspren?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of it. That's part of something else.

 

I do have a Steelhunt code, which is why I brought up the theory that there are only cryptics and honorspren. I can PM you the reasons that brought me to think this, if you'd like, but I think you know them.

Edited by Moogle
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http://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/1ced7z/iamstilla_novelist_named_brandon_sanderson_ama/

Are all wind spren really just unbonded honor spren?

No, they are cousins to one another, but not exactly the same thing.


This is what I was referring to. It answers exactly what we're discussing.

 

 

Yeah, I think I can guess your reasons. But when you take the above answer into account, it doesn't really work the way you say it does.

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How about gravity, atmospheric pressure, friction or travel? One Surge may fit Cultivation, two if you count whatever Surge Growth ability comes from but Honor is an abstract concept. You can't fit any of the Surges to Honor.

 

So I think upper side is Honor and lower side is Cultivation, and Surges are none.

 

Kaladin, for example, is a Windrunner and called the child of Tanavast and child of Honor in tWoK chapter 47 by who I'm guessing was Cultivation.

 

I agree Upper side Honor,lower side Culivation, Skybreakears and "Emerald" order share a surge from Honor and one from Cultivation.

 

Gravity and atmospheric pressureare Honor surges, after all his alias is "Stormfather"

 

Growth are for sure Cultivation.

 

Friction ? Never heard about.

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http://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/1ced7z/iamstilla_novelist_named_brandon_sanderson_ama/

This is what I was referring to. It answers exactly what we're discussing.

 

 

Yeah, I think I can guess your reasons. But when you take the above answer into account, it doesn't really work the way you say it does.

 

I don't understand, then. How there can be disagreement about what an honorspren is by scholars? The quote you have and the quote I had sort of contradict each other, don't they?

 

So there has been dissension among them about who gets to call themselves honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know "This is what defines an honorspren".

 

If it's just the case that honorspren are those spren that give Gravity and Pressure as Surges when bonded, there's no way to disagree. Honorspren implies that they're mostly of Honor, rather than Cultivation. Why should only one Radiant order get near-pure Honor, rather than half (as people are theorizing in this thread)?

Edited by Moogle
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I don't understand, then. How there can be disagreement about what an honorspren is by scholars? The quote you have and the quote I had sort of contradict each other, don't they?

Some scholars are wrong?

 

I mean Syl looks very much like a windspren. It took Kaladin a year to suspect she is something else even though she didn't act like regular spren. It's not that surprising there would be different opinions. Here we are, discussing the very same thing and if we assumed Reddit quote didn't exist, we could discuss it until we die of old age and never come to a definite conclusion. Never mind the fact that generally speaking most in-book characters are a lot less Cosmere aware than us readers.

 

If it's just the case that honorspren are those spren that give Gravity and Pressure as Surges when bonded, there's no way to disagree. Honorspren implies that they're mostly of Honor, rather than Cultivation. Why should only one Radiant order get near-pure Honor, rather than half (as people are theorizing in this thread)?

Maybe that's not the case. The spren from the Interlude seems mostly Cultivation for example. And cryptics are probably a lot closer to Honor than Cultivation as well, which messes up my upper-side=Honor, lower-side=Cultivation theory. Even then we've only seen three of the ten Radiant spren. We know very little about spren at this point to say for certain.

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Well, given that Syl's shtick was sticking things together and making people trip, I suppose I will concede the point and say, at the least, that she's not a windspren. I'm still not quite sure on the honorspren thing, though. We'd have to take it to PMs regarding that.

 

Edit: Well, it's being answered in WoR, according to one interview! That's good to hear. Just to muddy up the waters with that reddit quote:

 

Question

And she's what, a Bonding Spren?

Brandon Sanderson

You will find out. She [says she's] an Honorspren, but you will find out.

 

Why doesn't he just say she's an honorspren? He's being all Aes Sedai here.

Edited by Moogle
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Number 2:

Smoke & pressure > Dust. Seems to make sense. Some debate as to whether Dustbringers are a radiant order or a void order but if they are a Radiant order, I think this is their likely place. I don't think Dustbringers are associated with Kalak despite the mention in his viewpoint as I can't reconcile it with the properties of his likely order.

{http://coppermind.net/wiki/Dustbringer}

Dustbringers being KR was confirmed at the Steelheart release during the QnA.

Check here

Signing 2 about 27 minutes in.

EDIT:: RE: Stonewards. I was pretty sure that the night in the orange armor was a Stoneward and we saw her just show up, seemingly from nowhere then use the power of Regrowth. This could mean that they aren't Stonewards, but something else, but Dalinar does say that perhaps the Fabrial is making the magic and not necessarily the KR.

Edited by Miyabi
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EDIT:: RE: Stonewards. I was pretty sure that the night in the orange armor was a Stoneward and we saw her just show up, seemingly from nowhere then use the power of Regrowth. This could mean that they aren't Stonewards, but something else, but Dalinar does say that perhaps the Fabrial is making the magic and not necessarily the KR.

 

Almost definitely the fabrial, I'd say. The gems on it, heliodor and topaz, are used to target the flesh and bones for healing. Or so goes the theory, which I support, because Order 4 not having Growth would be... odd.

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Right. I believe the power of Regrowth should belong to "Lucentia" so Growth should IMO 100% go with order 4.

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I agree. Though probably for a different reason than you guys. Still that kinda leaves out Lightweavers. Assuming they are illusionists, where would you put them?

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Could someone please PM me one of the steelhunt codes? I'd love to get a peek at the interlude since I've been theorizing on the Essences/Orders/Surges stuff for a while now....

 

please?

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