Twinborn

[Joe ST]

Remember that the Well of Ascension was still actively holding Ruin back during TLR's entire reign. He couldn't take him over because of that.

Control through subversion, iirc TLR had a real tough time staying sane because of the effects of Ruin, similar to Zane...

[Emeralis00]

As to being able to store energy into a metalmind that you're burning... theoretically you could have this cycle of energy that just keeps multiplying itself until the metalmind is burned out to the point where it reaches insane over 9000 levels and you can pretty much destroy anything. But you have to keep in mind that the metalmind is being burned and constantly shrinking, thus can't store as much power as time goes on. (I think. I don't remember if the amount of energy stored in a metalmind is dependent on its size.) But you'd need to have some sort of seed power to start that cycle.

No. You are burning pewter A and storing into pewter B.

I thought you stored in a metalmind, burned that metalmind and then put the new power into a different metalmind, so that you don't burn the metalmind you're storing in, thus not limiting your ability to store.

Yes, sort of.

[Chaos]

Wow, I am now to the point where I am utterly lost in this conversation.

[Zayde]

No. You are burning pewter A and storing into pewter B.

Yes. That's what the first part of my post was saying. I was quoting you as a citation. I wasn't responding to your post. Sorry for not making that clear. ><

Chaos thought you were talking about burning pewter A and then storing right back into pewter A. This is not what the Lord Ruler did to gain his immortality. He did exactly the same thing as the burning pewter A and storing into pewter B. Only with atium and he also needed to store some age into the atium A before he burned it so it released the enhanced age when he burns it. Then when he burns it, he stores that enhanced age into the bracelets on his wrist and slowly draws from that until they get low and need to be recharged again.

[Emeralis00]

@Zayde: Oops, sorry.

@chaos: you can get lost!?

[Chaos]

Okay, I think I know why I am so dang confused. Let's back up a lot.

Chaos thought you were talking about burning pewter A and then storing right back into pewter A.

No, I... was not talking about this.

It seems that we are thinking of a lot of different magic implications, so let's just go ahead and define them. This way everyone is on the same page.

1. The Canonical Allomancy-Feruchemy Trick. You store a property in the metalmind, then later, you burn the metalmind, thus giving you a net gain of said Feruchemical property. The Lord Ruler did this. He spent time aged, storing that power in his atiummind. Then he burns the atiummind for a big gain of youth.

2. Storing the Excess Power from the Canonical Allomancy-Feruchemy Trick. This is part two of the Canonical Allomancy-Feruchemy trick. That big burst of the Feruchemical property is quite a lot. Now, the Allomancer-Feruchemist Twinborn stores the Feruchemical property into the metalmind.

So, let's say the Lord Ruler did this with pewter and a pewtermind. Let's say he stored three units of youth in. He burned that metalmind, and so maybe he got twenty units of youth in output from the Allomancy. This youth now goes inside his body, as if he tapped the metalmind. He then stores the twenty units of youth in another atiummind.

3. Chaos's Interpretation of the Original Question - Simultaneously Storing and Burning This is what I thought Emeralis's question was to begin with. You are storing a Feruchemical property in your metalmind, while simultaneously burning that metal via Allomancy. So, I'm giving strength to my pewtermind at a rate of 2x, but I am also burning the pewter. I was under the impression of, does this work? Would you automatically get a net gain of the Feruchemical property, like #1?

4. Zayde's Interpretation of Something I said This involves burning, say, pewter, and then I think you store the strength you got from Allomancy into a pewtermind.

Did I pretty much sum up everything? I'll wait to analyze these once we agree on what the crap we are talking about in the first place.

[Joe ST]

I dont think a simultaneous store'n'burn would work, since it may lead to positive-feedback: you store the power you gain from store'n'burn in the thing you burn, increasing the output, increasing the input, ad infinitum. Or at least there has to be a barrier somewhere, so that power can leak or be blocked.

Can you even invest in an ingested metal?

If I have ingested a mind and some raw metal, can I sense the difference between them?

Do I have control over what bits of metal I burn? what bits of metal I store in? (I think you can draw from a particular mind at once?)

So what happens if I have ingested some metal and an empty mind: I chose to burn the raw stuff, and store the power in the mind. That's pretty standard so far...

So now I only have an empty mind, and maybe (probably) too much control burning: I burn one side of the metal mind and store it. I believe the power in a mind is akin to fluid in a container? That would mean I start getting the extra power from store'n'burn and storing that atop my own capacity (unless I can multi task, but that leads to possible perpetual 'motion', if tuned correctly)

Same again, but

I guess some of the ideas discussed need a significant concentration and control, and maybe even super-local temporal enhancement...if thats even possible >.>

[Zayde]

Okay, I think I know why I am so dang confused. Let's back up a lot.

No, I... was not talking about this.

It seems that we are thinking of a lot of different magic implications, so let's just go ahead and define them. This way everyone is on the same page.

1. The Canonical Allomancy-Feruchemy Trick. You store a property in the metalmind, then later, you burn the metalmind, thus giving you a net gain of said Feruchemical property. The Lord Ruler did this. He spent time aged, storing that power in his atiummind. Then he burns the atiummind for a big gain of youth.

2. Storing the Excess Power from the Canonical Allomancy-Feruchemy Trick. This is part two of the Canonical Allomancy-Feruchemy trick. That big burst of the Feruchemical property is quite a lot. Now, the Allomancer-Feruchemist Twinborn stores the Feruchemical property into the metalmind.

So, let's say the Lord Ruler did this with pewter and a pewtermind. Let's say he stored three units of youth in. He burned that metalmind, and so maybe he got twenty units of youth in output from the Allomancy. This youth now goes inside his body, as if he tapped the metalmind. He then stores the twenty units of youth in another atiummind.

3. Chaos's Interpretation of the Original Question - Simultaneously Storing and Burning This is what I thought Emeralis's question was to begin with. You are storing a Feruchemical property in your metalmind, while simultaneously burning that metal via Allomancy. So, I'm giving strength to my pewtermind at a rate of 2x, but I am also burning the pewter. I was under the impression of, does this work? Would you automatically get a net gain of the Feruchemical property, like #1?

4. Zayde's Interpretation of Something I said This involves burning, say, pewter, and then I think you store the strength you got from Allomancy into a pewtermind.

Did I pretty much sum up everything? I'll wait to analyze these once we agree on what the crap we are talking about in the first place.

I was commenting both on what the original question said and how you interpreted it.

Your simultaneous storing and burning could possibly work. The real question is, is the storage capacity of of metalminds dependent on the amount/size of the metal (Is there even a limit to the storage capacity? If there is, then you won't be able to fill it up any further when you burn it so then you won't be able to have a continuous multiplier and potentially infinite energy.) and is the multiplier large enough to compensate for the rate you burn the metal. You also have to keep in mind that once the metal burns out, you'll have no source of metal and be completely powerless. So in order to keep the cycle going for extended periods of time, you'll have to keep ingesting metal as it burns away.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

I think the orginal question, about burning pewter and storing in a pewtermind, was talking about burning a piece of pewter that isn't a pewtermind and then storing the effect in a pewtermind. Would it work? The effect of tapping a pewtermind and burning pewter are very different, are they compatible?

A question I have would be what happens if you burn a metalmind but then don't immediately store it. Can you use that power? Say you burned an ironmind, would you become extremely heavy? It seems so.

Also, what would happen if you burned a coppermind? Enhanced memories?

[Chaos]

To answer my own question, #4 would definitely fail. Allomantic tin is not the same as Feruchemical tin, for example.

I dont think a simultaneous store'n'burn would work, since it may lead to positive-feedback: you store the power you gain from store'n'burn in the thing you burn, increasing the output, increasing the input, ad infinitum. Or at least there has to be a barrier somewhere, so that power can leak or be blocked.

1. Can you even invest in an ingested metal?

2. If I have ingested a mind and some raw metal, can I sense the difference between them?

3. Do I have control over what bits of metal I burn? what bits of metal I store in? (I think you can draw from a particular mind at once?)

4. So what happens if I have ingested some metal and an empty mind: I chose to burn the raw stuff, and store the power in the mind. That's pretty standard so far...

5. So now I only have an empty mind, and maybe (probably) too much control burning: I burn one side of the metal mind and store it. I believe the power in a mind is akin to fluid in a container? That would mean I start getting the extra power from store'n'burn and storing that atop my own capacity (unless I can multi task, but that leads to possible perpetual 'motion', if tuned correctly)

Same again, but

I guess some of the ideas discussed need a significant concentration and control, and maybe even super-local temporal enhancement...if thats even possible >.>

Numbers mine.

1. That depends how small the metal is, I would guess. One can't charge the tiny bits of metal in your body, but Sazed could tap the ring he ate. If he can tap it, he should be able to store it.

2 and 3. Maybe. I mean, Feruchemists can select which metal they draw upon.

4. Are you referring to #4 here?

5. I always sort of modeled a Feruchemical charge like a fluid as well. The charge is evenly distributed throughout the metal, and then (excuse the pun), you tap it But take a look down below.

I mean, I think I know what you mean, but I want to be sure.

I was commenting both on what the original question said and how you interpreted it.

Your simultaneous storing and burning could possibly work. The real question is, is the storage capacity of of metalminds dependent on the amount/size of the metal (Is there even a limit to the storage capacity? If there is, then you won't be able to fill it up any further when you burn it so then you won't be able to have a continuous multiplier and potentially infinite energy.) and is the multiplier large enough to compensate for the rate you burn the metal. You also have to keep in mind that once the metal burns out, you'll have no source of metal and be completely powerless. So in order to keep the cycle going for extended periods of time, you'll have to keep ingesting metal as it burns away.

I seem to recall that it does depend on the size of the metal, but I do not have a citation. Though Sazed's small rings did hold less of a charge, so I think it's safe to assume that for this conversation. I don't know if the size matters that much, though. Most Allomancers just kept eating flakes of metals. If I have a huge bracer, that would take a long time to burn through.

I like the idea of that limit on the multiplier.

Do I need to explicitly ingest the metal in order to burn it, or can I simply burn the bracers on my arms? If I can burn the bracer's metal, then there would be enough metal to continually to do #3 endlessly. We don't explicitly know from what the Lord Ruler did, but remember, one of his other "amazing" tricks was his extreme healing. So he got flayed, but he managed to perform #1 with his goldmind to save himself. I would imagine he wouldn't have been able to prepare enough to ingest the goldmind. That means he probably just burned his bracer.

Lemme back up again for a second and ask another pedantic question. I'm focusing on #3 here. In that, we are burning a metal as we are storing into it. But I think #1 involves something slightly different. Sazed said that the Feruchemy acted like a new Allomantic metal. Vin reached out to the Feruchemical reserve of energy and burned that.

So, this means that the Canonical Trick involves reaching out to the Feruchemical store, which happens to be on the metal. Then you can burn it. So, okay, this sounds like a silly distinction, but it really isn't. It suggests that I can't just burn the metal, willy-nilly, but that I have to focus upon the Feruchemical charge.

If that is the case, #3 would not work. Therefore, I now define:

5. Revised Simultaneous Store and Burn. The Twinborn stores a Feruchemical property into the metalmind. Then, a very slight delay later, the Twinborn focuses upon the Feruchemical charge he is creating, and burns it.

Pretty much the same crap, but slightly different.

This is related to what Joe asked in his fifth point, in a roundabout way. If #5 is valid--and not #3--then what Joe is saying wouldn't work. In Joe's example, the Allomancer would just be burning the metal, and not getting the Feruchemical boost, so to speak. The Feruchemy is like its own Allomantic metal. When you do the Canonical Trick with, say, bronze, you aren't getting the Allomantic effect, you're just getting a supercharged Feruchemy.

That brings up another question, if you must focus on the Feruchemical charge: what happens if I have a metalmind that is fully charged, and I start to Allomantically burn it? I'm not focusing on the Feruchemical charge, so in this model, you're just getting the normal Allomantic effect. What happens to the charge? I'm thinking the Feruchemical charge just vanishes away, but this is an important thing to think about.

I wonder how quickly you can store Feruchemy. Can you vary the speed that you store it? Sazed's storing of weight in MB2 suggests that you could store a lot of weight at once, and then later, slow it down.

EDIT: (for Silus's post)

I think the orginal question, about burning pewter and storing in a pewtermind, was talking about burning a piece of pewter that isn't a pewtermind and then storing the effect in a pewtermind. Would it work? The effect of tapping a pewtermind and burning pewter are very different, are they compatible?

A question I have would be what happens if you burn a metalmind but then don't immediately store it. Can you use that power? Say you burned an ironmind, would you become extremely heavy? It seems so.

Also, what would happen if you burned a coppermind? Enhanced memories?

Ah, okay. I would think that the Allomantic and Feruchemical effects are incompatible, as I said way at the top in #4. They are different abilities. The only Allomantic ability that is close to the Feruchemical one is pewter, but Allomantic pewter has the addition of increased balance. Feruchemical pewter doesn't do that. Also, Allomantic pewter does not increase muscle size, whereas Feruchemical pewter does.

I'd say even in this case, the powers are distinct.

Edited May 21, 2011 by Chaos

[FellKnight]

Also, what would happen if you burned a coppermind? Enhanced memories?

Best acid trip ever.

Fell

[Emeralis00]

WAIT wait wait I just remembered. I don't have the book with me but bear with me.

In the first book of mistborn when vin was talking with sazed, she ate one of sazed's pewter minds.

She got the pewter power boost and could also feel another source of power, but she could not access it.

Sazed said that this was because the power wasn't hers.

Also, I always interpreeted allomantic pweter strength as improving the quality of your muscles though I could be wrong.

[CrazyRioter]

Also, what would happen if you burned a coppermind? Enhanced memories?

your head asplode.

[happyman]

Also, what would happen if you burned a coppermind? Enhanced memories?

Instant photographic memory?

Sounds like a question for Brandon. Storing memories works pretty well as Brandon has described it, but I have not idea what an allomantic burn would do to such a thing.

A copper twinborn. Wonder what they'd be able to do.

[lordofsoup]

I just skimmed this because it is so long, but I thought that the reason Hemalurgy was so powerful is because anyone could use it to create new life forms if they knew the proper place to put the spikes. It combines the DNA of individuals, either spiritual or actual and fuses them with others changing the end results by the placement of the spike.

TLR had to spend time aged, because after using the Atium Atium combination for so long it decreased its potency. Because it took more and more power to change his age after 1000 years. Someone might have already said all this but I dont have time to read the whole page.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

I doubt it lost it's potency over time. It's just that you have to spend some time aged every so often for it to work.

[Zayde]

You have to spend some time aged to create new metalminds to burn to recharge the ones on your wrists. Since the ones on your wrists effectively keep you the same age, when you go to create the new ones, it's as if you're not drawing from the ones on your wrist. As far as storing into the one's you're going to burn are concerned, you're age is 25, even though you're drawing from another metalmind. So to store age, you'll have to spend time older.

[Zas678]

But if you are currently allomantically burning age, while feruchemically storing age, you will be younger than your actual age. You may look older than normal (think of TLR when Vin stumbles upon him in his Hut), but you still aren't your actual age (think of how much older he looked when Vin ripped out his Atium metalminds).

[lordofsoup]

I doubt it lost it's potency over time. It's just that you have to spend some time aged every so often for it to work.

Thats why the TLR grew old so fast after Vin ripped off his bracers.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

The reason he grew old so fast was because he was 1000 years old. As soon as he stopped tapping Atium, all of that age started catching up with him. It had nothing to do with it losing potency. If anything, it had to be getting stronger in order to compensate.

[KChan]

It's not that the power itself was losing potency, it's that the Lord Ruler himself was still getting older. Feruchemy is all about multipliers. You can tap some of your stored power to be 2x stronger, or you can tap more of it to spend an equal amount of time 4x stronger instead. Now then, looking at that, it makes perfect sense that the Lord Ruler would have to tap his metalminds much more quickly at 1000 years old to retain the same perceived age (usually between his 20s and 40s, it seems) as he did when he was, say, only 100.

[jacobfake]

Wow I don't even know how the OP gave birth to the mutated child that was page 2 ^^, but

if anyone still cares about the coolest combo thing, I think an electrum misting/ zinc feruchemist would be cool assuming I'm not one of Brandon's characters, as it would basically make me a god as long as I didn't have to fight anyone (i.e. business decisions, romance decision, any decision at all would basically be me just winning.)

Edited August 13, 2011 by jacobfake

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

The thing is that no matter what, aluminum and duralumin will always be useless unless you're Mistborn.

[Cuaiir]

The thing is that no matter what, aluminum and duralumin will always be useless unless you're Mistborn.

Not entirely true. If you have a 'true' aluminum or dualumin Twinborn, they could get huge bursts of Feruchemical powers from a metalmind via Allomantic burning.

Granted, we don't know what either of the internal enhancement metals do, but this is still a possibility.

[jacobfake]

The thing is that no matter what, aluminum and duralumin will always be useless unless you're Mistborn.

The power itself can still be put to use via hemalurgy too.