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Shared Compounding


Kurkistan

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@Moogle
 
Your model of how this would work for Augor's seems off.
 
Consider: Vin burned Sazed's Pewtermind and sensed his inaccessible power. But, while she was doing this experiment, she gained the power of Allomantic pewter from the metal, not some "wrong-keyed" Investiture that she couldn't utilize. Stored Strength of any kind, then, seems to only kick in when she is allowed to access it, at least on some level. It's not just a case of the Investiture not being "forced into" Strength, but instead of it seeming to never actually interact with the Strength at all.
 
That means that the metalmind "looks at" an Allomancer before Compounding kicks in. It doesn't simply overwrite the original metal. If you're right, then it seems that Vin either shouldn't have been able to burn the pewtermind at all or shouldn't have gotten any Allomantic pewter power from it. You seem to say that she should have gotten "Sazed-Strength", but that it just wouldn't "stick." However, what actually happened was that she got Allomantic pewter from the metal.
 
Recall how Brandon describes Compounding as working:
 
Source:

[...] So what’s going on there is… imagine there’s like, an imprint, a wavelength, so to speak. A beat for an allomantic thing, that when you burn a metal, it says “ok, this is what power we give.” When it’s got that charge, it changes that beat and says, “now we get this power.” And you access a set of feruchemical power. That’s why compounding is so powerful.

 

We have a more telling quote, though:

 

Source:

Q: When a twinborn burns a charged metalmind, does he choose between getting the allomantic effect or the compounding effect or does he just get the compounding effect or does he get both?

 

A: Umm…drr drr drr…I believe it is only the compounded effect.

 

I was originally a bit leery of this WoB because we know almost for certain that there's at least some allomantic burning that goes on first: there are no aluminum compounders because it would go "poof" for them if they tried. However, I suppose the most reasonable interpretation is that compounders get "hijacked" into compounding an instant after they try to start an allomantic burn, the "beat changes", as it were.

 

Following from this WoB, then, it seems to follow from your model that no Allomancer should ever be able to get more that an instant of Allomantic power from a normal metalmind. Vin shouldn't have been able to burn that earring: it seems that you think she should have been flooded with worthless Investiture instead.

 

That didn't happen, obviously, so it seems instead that compounding only ever kicks in when the allomancer already has "permissions" to use the attribute.

 

----

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong in how I interpret you.

 

EDIT: Ah, I see that you altered your post while I was typing to make it a bit more clear what you were getting at.

 

To clarify, then: Should Vin be able to yeild Allomantic pewter from Sazed's pewtermind, or should she instead get a flood of Investitures that just happens to not "stick" to her?

 

On "generic" attributes:
 
I thought this one was put to bed long ago. I see no reason to believe that a Bloodmaker stores anything but "genericized" Health at all times. I seriously doubt that Sazed's goldminds are storing "his" ideal health, but rather that it simply stores health that is applied at-the-moment when he taps it. This is far simpler and aligns Feruchemical gold with how other healing magics work in the Cosmere: Working with Cognitive aspects in the moment rather than from the past. Perhaps it could theoretically work another way, but I don't find the possibility very likely.
 
So I predict that your prediction about "generic" metalminds working worse is wrong.
 


Congratulations, Kurk. You've managed to get me to agree with Moogle.
 
Your question was specific. Could an Augor Compound? His answer was direct. This is possible. Compounding, as we know it, specifically means "using allomancy to burn a feruchemical charge." That's the simplest, most direct, most intuitive interpretation of this answer to this question.
 
Is it still possible that anyone can tap an identity-less metalmind, even if the person possesses no feruchemy? Maybe. Is that in any way suggested or supported by this exchange? Nope.

 
It's far too strong to say that it's not "in any way suggested or supported" by the WoB, what with all the reasons I've given for why I think the WoB supports/suggests that the Augor could tap, and both Pech and I, at the very least, coming to that conclusion as a result of this WoB.

Edited by Kurkistan
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Consider: Vin burned Sazed's Pewtermind and sensed his inaccessible power. But, while she was doing this experiment, she gained the power of Allomantic pewter from the metal, not some "wrong-keyed" Investiture that she couldn't utilize. Stored Strength of any kind, then, seems to only kick in when she is allowed to access it, at least on some level. It's not just a case of the Investiture not being "forced into" Strength, but instead of it seeming to never actually interact with the Strength at all.

 

You'll have to provide a WoB saying that Vin gained pewter's regular effects while burning Sazed's metalmind. The scene in question is here:

 

Vin nodded, swallowing the tiny stud. She felt at her Allomantic reserve, but the stud’s metal didn’t seem to do anything different. She tentatively burned pewter.

“Anything?” Sazed asked.

Vin shook her head. “No, I don’t . . .” She trailed off. There was something there, something different.

“What is it, Mistress?” Sazed asked, uncharacteristic eagerness sounding in his voice.

“I... can feel the power, Saze. It’s faint—far beyond my grasp—but I swear that there’s another reserve within me, one that only appears when I’m burning your metal.”

 

Vin doesn't describe feeling stronger or more dextrous, and she doesn't move, so I'm not sure whether she's actually gaining pewter's benefits. If this has been previously discussed in this thread, I apologize.

 

That means that the metalmind "looks at" an Allomancer before Compounding kicks in. It doesn't simply overwrite the original metal. If you're right, then it seems that Vin either shouldn't have been able to burn the pewtermind at all or shouldn't have gotten any Allomantic pewter power from it.

 

You've correctly interpreted my theory, though I would say that Vin should be able to burn anything that's pewter, regardless of whether it's a metalmind or not. She just won't get the regular pewter strength if it's a metalmind. Again, you'll have to convince me she got regular Allomantic pewter strength, as I am uncertain.

 

 

To clarify, then: Should Vin be able to yeild Allomantic pewter from Sazed's pewtermind, or should she instead get a flood of Investitures that just happens to not "stick" to her?

 

She should not be able to obtain Allomantic pewter strength. This is in line with the WoB saying a Twinborn only gets the Compounded effect. There should never be an instant of Allomantic power at all, it should be pure Feruchemical power.

 

 

I thought this one was put to bed long ago. I see no reason to believe that a Bloodmaker stores anything but "genericized" Health at all times. I seriously doubt that Sazed's goldminds are storing "his" ideal health, but rather that it simply stores health that is applied at-the-moment when he taps it. This is far simpler and aligns Feruchemical gold with how other healing magics work in the Cosmere: Working with Cognitive aspects in the moment rather than from the past. Perhaps it could theoretically work another way, but I don't find the possibility very likely.

 

It's possible you're right, but I feel it would be far simpler for Feruchemists to store attributes relating to themselves rather than the magic system having a complex locking system built in that keeps others out. It feels... tacked on. Your explanation of other healing magics in the Cosmere could easily have the healing be in a 'generic' form, like an unlocked metalmind, without adding any additional complexity.

 

Also, using your WoB:

 

[...] So what’s going on there is… imagine there’s like, an imprint, a wavelength, so to speak. A beat for an allomantic thing, that when you burn a metal, it says “ok, this is what power we give.” When it’s got that charge, it changes that beat and says, “now we get this power.” And you access a set of feruchemical power. That’s why compounding is so powerful.

 

Under your theory, the metalmind decides to give up its goods when the right 'key' is used, and until then, it acts as a regular Allomantic metal. This WoB implies that if it has a Feruchemical charge, the beat changes, so you shouldn't be able to get the normal Allomantic effect. Brandon mentions no conditional change of beat.

 

As a potential side-effect, this could mean that Feruchemical health is more potent than most healing in the Cosmere because it's keyed to you. This could potentially explain why Feruchemical health can repair limbs severed with a Shardblade while Stormlight healing is too 'generic' to manage that.

 

Though of course, I stand by Stormlight probably being more like Allomantic pewter than Feruchemical gold, but that's a discussion for a different thread. Actually, maybe Stormlight does work as Feruchemical gold. Hmm. My general 'Investiture slows aging' theory would tie in here and... I am undecided! Uncertain!

 

Sorry for editing my post while you were responding. For my long posts I tend to edit long after I post because I suddenly realize how poorly I communicated my ideas.

Edit: Now, for problems with my theory, I am looking at bad alloys. Bad alloys, I believe, cause headaches because of the Investiture being messed up and not working with you properly. Burning a metalmind you don't have access to should maybe result in headaches as well because you're not using the Investiture? I'm not sure how bad alloys work with Investiture.

Edited by Moogle
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[Vin shouldn't/doesn't get Allomantic pewter]

I think it takes a fairly liberal interpretation of the text for Vin to have not been getting the benefits of Allomantic pewter during that scene. Characters burn metals all the time without mentioning their effects directly: Vin is burning pewter and bronze most all the time in WoA, for instance. And it's rather obvious to the allomancer when they're burning, from the POV's we've seen.

 

I'd be very very surprised if Brandon wrote that scene with Vin's Allomantic pewter suddenly not working properly, all without word one of comment on it. It really doesn't seem the natural reading unless we're trying to force compliance with a theory such as yours, if I may be somewhat blunt.

 

Towards the end of that quote, even, she says there's "another reserve" that is "far beyond [her] grasp", not "my pewter reserve was replaced by another reserve which I am currently burning which isn't doing anything." This when she's conscious of burning his pewtermind specifically, all without any comment of not getting the benefits of Allomantic pewter.

 

So we don't have WoB, but I think this one, at least, is fairly firmly settled just by the books. 

 

She should not be able to obtain Allomantic pewter strength. This is in line with the WoB saying a Twinborn only gets the Compounded effect. There should never be an instant of Allomantic power at all, it should be pure Feruchemical power.

We actually do have WoB that essentially confirms at least an instant of allomantic burning for everyone.

 

Source:

ANDREW THE GREAT

What would happen if a person were to burn a metal that was Feruchemically charged using Allomancy?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

The metal used in Allomancy is like a key or a doorway to the power that Allomancy actually uses. The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does. However, if the metal is Feruchemically charged, then it will basically become a super-burst of Feruchemical power with no Allomantic effect. The Feruchemical charge acts as a filter as well as the metal, and changes what the power does. in this case, say you were burning steel, you would just be massively speedy for a second, and wouldn't actually have the ability to push on anything Allomantically. Hope that answered the question. I get the concept, so if you need me to explain it differently, let me know and i'll try. Oh, the other thing I forgot is that this concept only works if it's a metal that you charged yourself. If it's a metal someone else charged, it would just work like regular Allomancy, and the Feruchemical charge would just cease to exist.

 

ANDREW THE GREAT

If someone aluminum or duralumin burned the Feruchemically charged metals, what would happen?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

Basically the same thing as above, except with aluminum. Aluminum, they would just go away.

 

This rather firmly suggests that aluminum can't be compounded without stumbling into its allomantic effect.

 

LATER: Oops, I had actually forgotten that first quote (adds it in). Soooo... I guess that's that. I win? Sorry to end on such an anticlimactic note. I do enjoy debates.  :unsure:

 

It's possible you're right, but I feel it would be far simpler for Feruchemists to store attributes relating to themselves rather than the magic system having a complex locking system built in that keeps others out. It feels... tacked on. Your explanation of other healing magics in the Cosmere could easily have the healing be in a 'generic' form, like an unlocked metalmind, without adding any additional complexity.

 

Also, using your WoB:

<WoB>

 

Under your theory, the metalmind decides to give up its goods when the right 'key' is used, and until then, it acts as a regular Allomantic metal. This WoB implies that if it has a Feruchemical charge, the beat changes, so you shouldn't be able to get the normal Allomantic effect. Brandon mentions no conditional change of beat.

I'd probably settle on some kind of "resonance" once the metalmind starts up. Looking at the pair of quotes in the WoB above, Brandon says "super-burst of Feruchemical power with no Allomantic effect" about 10 seconds before allowing for Aluminum to have an Allomantic effect, which suggests an instantaneous aMetal burn that trips the "Feruchemy breaker" if the proper code is met.

 

As a potential side-effect, this could mean that Feruchemical health is more potent than most healing in the Cosmere because it's keyed to you. This could potentially explain why Feruchemical health can repair limbs severed with a Shardblade while Stormlight healing is too 'generic' to manage that.

 

Though of course, I stand by Stormlight probably being more like Allomantic pewter than Feruchemical gold, but that's a discussion for a different thread. Actually, maybe Stormlight does work as Feruchemical gold. Hmm. My general 'Investiture slows aging' theory would tie in here and... I am undecided! Uncertain!

I don't think that Feruchemical health is inherently more potent, but I agree that it's a discussion for another thread.

 

Sorry for editing my post while you were responding. For my long posts I tend to edit long after I post because I suddenly realize how poorly I communicated my ideas.

No problem, I tend to do that too (both the poor communication and the necro-editing ;)). I just wanted to clear up any confusion if I was looking obtuse and/or like I hadn't read your post. ;)

 

Edit: Now, for problems with my theory, I am looking at bad alloys. Bad alloys, I believe, cause headaches because of the Investiture being messed up and not working with you properly. Burning a metalmind you don't have access to should maybe result in headaches as well because you're not using the Investiture? I'm not sure how bad alloys work with Investiture.

 

Bad alloys, hmm... Well it's a moot point so far as the parallel with compounding goes because I found the WoB to end all WoB's. Sorry again for not remembering it earlier.

Edited by Kurkistan
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Kurk: You clearly want to believe very strongly that this is true. Rather than sit here and continue to be insulted as you constantly claim victory while ignoring my points, I'm done talking with you. There are plenty of people on this forum willing to have a rational debate where they look at the facts before them and draw conclusions, rather than starting from "I want this to be true" and then following up every quote with, "Well I'm obviously right now."

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That WoB does seem to settle the matter quite cleanly. You win! I find the way things work with this 'Feruchemical breaker' to be incredibly inelegant, however. I am not pleased with it, and I am not convinced of your lock-key theory because of it. That said, that could be a failing of Brandon's, and your theory seems at least plausible. I don't know of any evidence to soundly refute it, so I will concede that it is the best theory available.

 

Still, the idea of each Feruchemical charge having a sort of 'gatekeeper' who checks the identity of whoever is using the metalmind is just... irritating. Inelegant. Clumsy. I swear there has to be a better theory out there... ugh. I just want to say that Brandon is wrong that a metalmind can act like a regular Allomantic metal so I can improve on his system and make it beautiful and elegant and have it all be based on a few simple rules like real physics but bah.

 

I suppose my theory is salvageable if you assume that an Allomancer attempting to burn a metalmind drives out the Feruchemical charge, so that if Vin ate a steelmind, burned it for a split second, then puked it back up it would be free of any charges, but I think that is straying into ridiculous terroritory and I know when to give up (sometimes). Plus, she describes a reservoir while burning. I'll think more on this.

Edited by Moogle
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That WoB does seem to settle the matter quite cleanly. You win! I find the way things work with this 'Feruchemical breaker' to be inelegant, however. I am not terribly pleased with it, and I am not 100% convinced of your lock-key theory because of it. That said, that could be a failing of Brandon's.

 

I suppose my theory is salvageable if you assume that an Allomancer attempting to burn a metalmind drives out the Feruchemical charge, so that if Vin ate a steelmind, burned it for a split second, then puked it back up it would be free of any charges, but I think that is straying into ridiculous terroritory and I know when to give up. Plus, she describes a reservoir while burning. I'll think more on this.

 

I may well be wrong on the "Feruchemical breaker". That literally occurred to me as I was writing it, though I can't think of any alternatives at the moment. Do you have any ideas on what we might be able to use to replace it?

 

Kurk: You clearly want to believe very strongly that this is true. Rather than sit here and continue to be insulted as you constantly claim victory while ignoring my points, I'm done talking with you. There are plenty of people on this forum willing to have a rational debate where they look at the facts before them and draw conclusions, rather than starting from "I want this to be true" and then following up every quote with, "Well I'm obviously right now."

 

Sorry? Insulting you was not my intent, and I must say I find your reaction somewhat out of proportion even if you read it as such.

Edited by Kurkistan
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I may well be wrong on the "Feruchemical breaker". That literally occurred to me as I was writing it, though I can't think of any alternatives at the moment. Do you have any ideas on what we might be able to use to replace it?

 

The way the physics are, from my understanding, is that the Investiture flows through the metal, and if there's Feruchemical charge there, the Investiture is filtered into a copy of whatever the metalmind contains. The fact that this filtering only occurs if you have the ability to access the Feruchemical charge is difficult to explain.

 

What if the stored Feruchemical charge is in 'off mode' while not in contact with someone who can access it? Once the person touches it, it reads their identity, and 'gives up the goods' and converts the Investiture into a ready-to-be-tapped form. This change in Investiture allows the filtering to work properly and the Compounding effect to happen. The 'off mode' version of the Investiture doesn't filter any Investiture flowing through it. (This might work with my theory of attributes being keyed to you, now I think on it, but gahhh that would involve adding in my keyed-attributes theory on top of the key-and-lock theory and the complexity penalties to the chance of the theory being true are ridiculous.)

 

This would predict that you can use someone else's metalminds so long as they're holding them, though. And I believe this is false, though I don't know of any WoB specifically contradicting it. I do believe Sazed or another Feruchemist would have realized that they could do this at some point, and it would be common knowledge. (If the theory of attributes keyed to you were the case, then the other Feruchemist wouldn't be able to tap your metalminds, though. A small saving grace?)

 

Really, it's just easier to pretend Brandon messed up so we can have a beautiful elegant system. But I'm getting whiny about that, so I'll stop.

 

Someone should ask Brandon what would happen if a Twinborn (with an Allomantic duralumin Hemalurgic spike) burned a goldmind while burning duralumin. If there's an instant of Allomantic power (which I agree is quite likely given the WoB on aluminum), then the Duralumin should burn up the entire metal and you should get no Compounding out of it.

Edited by Moogle
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Hmm...

 

Recall that Vin didn't sense Sazed's reserve until after she started burning.

 

Recall also that allomancy happens because of the actual physical "molecular" structure of the metals. There have been those who've argued that Feruchemical storage actually alters the physical metal, but I think it more likely that it's just hiding out in the Spiritual aspect.

 

In the second case, then, what if Preservation's power needs you to burn the physical metal before it can register the nature of that metal's Spiritual component and use it as a "filter"? So the power can't "see" the Feruchemical nature of the metal until you've already started burning it.

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Recall also that allomancy happens because of the actual physical "molecular" structure of the metals. There have been those who've argued that Feruchemical storage actually alters the physical metal, but I think it more likely that it's just hiding out in the Spiritual aspect.

 

In the second case, then, what if Preservation's power needs you to burn the physical metal before it can register the nature of that metal's Spiritual component and use it as a "filter"? So the power can't "see" the Feruchemical nature of the metal until you've already started burning it.

 

A Feruchemist who touches a metalmind knows it's his and how much power there is in it, as I recall.

 

I feel uncomfortable with the idea that you need to start burning the metal before any Spiritual aspect is 'recognized'. I don't think there should be any recognition required all. The Investiture you draw with Allomancy being filtered into Feruchemy should be a side effect of the Feruchemical charge, there should be no deliberate attempt on the part of Allomancy to recognize Feruchemical metals or to filter itself. Compounding is supposed to be a hack, not a deliberate process which is part of Allomancy.

 

It's entirely possible that Brandon did that, though, which worries me.

 

Based on my feelings, though, something about the charge itself should change when someone who can access it is using the metal. I'm not sure how this would work, though. Maybe the Feruchemical charge is stored in the Spiritual realm, but when you tap it (or burn the metal) you force the Investiture into the actual metal so it can come to you and while it's inside the metal it acts as a filter.

 

But why should this cause the Feruchemist to be forced into using the Feruchemical power when burning one of his own metalminds? He's not purposefully tapping the metal's power, so the Investiture should be safely hidden away in the Spiritual, like a Shardblade. There should be no interference unless the Feruchemist wills it. Unless burning and tapping a metal use the same 'brain commands' and you can't help but unconsciously draw on a Feruchemical metalmind when burning it?

 

Ooh, ooh, what if you are always unconsciously tapping from any metal you're touching? Just a trickle, little enough power that you won't recognize that the metalminds are depleting, but enough to give you a sense that the metalmind is yours? Yes, this seems feasible and elegant. It would explain why only your own metalminds act as a filter (other people can't draw the stored-away Investiture and thus have it filter and start a Compounding), and it removes a separate mechanism required to explain how people know if a piece of metal is their own metalmind.

 

But this has major issues, because an unlocked metalmind made by a Feruchemist to be used by others isn't going to be automatically tapped by them. And the only way an Augur is going to get the filter effect is if he can tap from the metal.

 

So... perhaps burning the metal actually triggers a small 'leak' of the Investiture stored in it, like if you kill someone their Shardblade appears. But, err, this would be like you cut off someone's limbs and slowly chunks of the Shardblade appear. Uh, grisly analogy which sucks, but you get my point. This would explain the requirement that metals be burned for a split second. Yes, I think I like this theory. I'll think more on it, but I am satisfied with this last solution. I'm going to keep the middle paragraphs of my post, though, because while likely wrong, I think they provide an interesting alternative. And I do think that Feruchemists always tapping metals they touch would be an elegant way to explain why they can sense their own metalminds.

 

In summary, my current proposed mechanism is thus:

  • Feruchemical charge is stored in the Spiritual and is not in the metal itself.
  • Investiture in the metal itself will act as a filter and start a Compounding effect (which is when Allomantic power acts like Feruchemical power). There is normally no Investiture in the metal itself which would cause a filtering effect, so if a metalmind is burned by someone who does not have the ability to access it, you get an Allomantic effect.
  • When you tap a metal, you force the stored Spiritual charge into Investiture and it will flow through the metal into you, like summoning a Shardblade.
  • This can cause the filtering effect if you burn the metal after you start tapping and Compounding starts, but is not how it is normally done. A clever Twinborn could exploit this effect though and not be required to get an Allomantic effect for a split second (see next bullet).
  • When you burn a metalmind you can access, it causes the stored Spiritual charge to turn into Investiture involuntarily as if you were tapping it, much like killing a Shardbearer causes his Blade to appear. This causes a filtering effect, and so you get an infinitesimal moment of an Allomantic effect and then the Feruchemical effect kicks in.

The main issue, as far as I can see, is that I don't know why someone burning a metalmind they don't own wouldn't cause the metal to leak Investiture and start a filtering effect. This is a major issue. Perhaps someone has ideas? Perhaps the theory is just unworkable?

Edited by Moogle
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I'm not thinking "recognized as a Feruchemical attribute", more "recognized as a valid target for burning for Allomantic power". So far as Compounding being a hack, recall that apparently a Compounder doesn't have a choice in the matter: once they start the burn, it immediately becomes Feruchemical.

 

But oooh, I do like the "constant tapping" idea...

 

Maybe unlocked metalminds are auto-tapped by everyone, then, under your model? Why not?

 

The leakage idea is valid too, I think.

 

If you want to stick with leakage, the reason why a random person burning a normal metalmind isn't Compounding could hark back to your idea of "sticking" form earlier: The Investiture is simply of the wrong type to stick to them, so it doesn't affect them.

 

---

 

I think I'll stick with "Feruchemical breaker" as my head-cannon for now, if only because of a whim, but as of this moment I would not be surprised if your model was close to the truth.

 

Have some Rep. :D

 

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Maybe unlocked metalminds are auto-tapped by everyone, then, under your model? Why not?
 
The issue is that muggles are not Feruchemists, so I'm not sure how they could be tapping things constantly. There's no mechanism by which they can do so.
 

 

If you want to stick with leakage, the reason why a random person burning a normal metalmind isn't Compounding could hark back to your idea of "sticking" form earlier: The Investiture is simply of the wrong type to stick to them, so it doesn't affect them.

 

I don't feel comfortable with this, because even if the Investiture just sort of floats away, there's still going to be a constant bit of Investiture leaking through the metal as it burns, and this should cause the filtering effect as usual.

 

Thanks for the rep.

 

I've also just had a sudden idea: if Investiture in metal can cause the filtering effect, then burning Awakened metal should cause a filtering effect too! Perhaps it would cause you to create a super-version of the Command you gave to the metal. That would be weird. How would that work? Wasn't there a WoB where he said it would be odd? Damnit, I want more Cosmere crossover.

 

What would happen if you stuck an infused gemstone in the middle of a nugget of metal and burned it? What filtering effect would that have? If the filtering effect just creates a 'copy' of whatever the Investiture's purpose is that is creating the filter, then a Stormlight filter would be like... being temporarily super-infused with Stormlight? So many questions!

Edited by Moogle
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What would happen if you stuck an infused gemstone in the middle of a nugget of metal and burned it? What filtering effect would that have? So many questions!

A sharp, hard object poking into the walls of your stomach, most likely.

You're right, though, that there is so much we don't know about how systems interact. I personally am curious about what happens if you burn something that's been Forged, particularly if it wasn't made of metal before the stamp was applied.

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You're right, though, that there is so much we don't know about how systems interact. I personally am curious about what happens if you burn something that's been Forged, particularly if it wasn't made of metal before the stamp was applied.

 

Given that the metal itself would have some sort of Investiture in it from the Forging (maybe?), I'd predict from the fact that the filtering effect 'copies' the Investiture in the metal, that you'd be turned into metal yourself for a split second. That would be neat!

 

Of course, burning the metal could break the seal... hmm.

Edited by Moogle
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Ok, a lot of that was TLDR, but I have a few thoughts:

1) I am super confused, because you guys keep referring to soulbearers. According to the feruchemical table, a soulbearer is a nicrosil ferring. An aluminum ferring is called a trueself. Did you guys mean to say trueself, or is there a known error on the table?

2) Kurk, I think think your "muggles can tap" theory MIGHT work, but only if the person filling the metalmind had reduced there identity to zero. Based on what we know, I do not think this is possible. Doing so would cause a singularity: if you have zero spiritual identity, you would no longer have the feruchemist mark on your spirit web, and so it would be impossible to reach a zero identity state using feruchemistry. Therefore, the lowest identity state you can reach with feruchemistry MUST still include your identity as a feruchemist. Ergo, the spiritual skeleton key needed to use an "unlocked" metalmind would most likely at least include an identity as some type of feruchemist. The question then becomes: could (for example) a steel ferring tap an unlocked goldmind, or could it only be tapped by another gold ferring (or full feruchemist)?

Edit: typo

Edited by askthepaperclip
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@Paperclip

 

1) Yeah... you're right. We're referring to trueselves.  :blink:

 

2) I don't quite think complete Identity-erasure is necessary: or at least that if it is, I think that Feruchemical aluminum actually can do it, given what we know. Recall that it seems that Augor's needn't be Feruchemists in order to tap such metalminds, so it seems that "identity as a feruchemist" isn't required. That, coupled with the fact that spike-having Inquisitors can tap their donors' metalminds, suggests "muggles can tap" to me.

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No, sorry but I have to join the chorus on this one; you asked about compounding, which to me means allomantically burning the goldmind. Nothing in your question or his response would imply that a misting would suddenly be able to draw power from the goldmind feruchemically. He would need to be a gold twinborn, but that isn't what you asked about; you said auger, so I have to assume that Brandon was talking only about a misting.

Edit: and I disagree that you can completely eliminate your identity with Feruchemical aluminum. Or at least, if you could, you would not be able to draw it back out because you would no longer be a feruchemist! It would be a one way street.

Double edit: hmm...unless the complete erasure of identity enabled fMuggle, in which case you could draw it back out of the same aluminum metalmind. But this would be useless to you, because you would not be able to create any of the fancy fully unlocked metalminds until your identity was sufficiently restored. You would be an Feruchemical aluminum gnat! (nor would you be able to tap any other metalminds, unless they were also created by a zero idyentity feruchemist, which I just explained was not possible) Classic catch-22!

Edited by askthepaperclip
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  • 2 weeks later...

I haven't read the whole thread yet just the OP so this may have already been said.

 

I agree with the OP that if that's how Feruchemical aluminum works then a Keeper could reduce identity to 0 and then fill a metalmind then give it to an allomancer with the corresponding allomantic metal. I just wouldn't call it compounding as the allomancer burning the metal isn't actually doing any compounding, all their getting is a "power up" so to speak, of the ability stored times 10.  

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all their getting is a "power up" so to speak, of the ability stored times 10.  

 

Just to be pedantic, the power inside the metalmind isn't actually multiplied so far as I know. The power comes from elsewhere. All the charge does is act as a filter for the regular amount of Allomantic power that the Allomancer would get - a Lerasium Mistborn will get more out of burning a metalmind than a regular Final Empire Misting will, and both will get the same amount of Feruchemical power regardless of whether the metal is full or not. (If I'm wrong, someone let me know.)

Edited by Moogle
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Just to be pedantic, the power inside the metalmind isn't actually multiplied so far as I know. The power comes from elsewhere. All the charge does is act as a filter for the regular amount of Allomantic power that the Allomancer would get - a Lerasium Mistborn will get more out of burning a metalmind than a regular Final Empire Misting will, and both will get the same amount of Feruchemical power regardless of whether the metal is full or not. (If I'm wrong, someone let me know.)

 

Wax explains that you can access the power stored in a metalmind tenfold.

 

“But it’s the Compounding that makes Miles so powerful. If your Allomancy and Feruchemy share a metal, you can access its power tenfold. It’s complicated. You store an attribute inside the metal, then burn it to release the power. It's called Compounding.

 

 

 

Given that the power is stored in the metal or filtered through the metal, times ten, I don't see what difference it would make to be a Lerasium Mistborn or a modern day Misting, you going to get the same amount of power from burning the metal because in this case it would be the Feruchemical charge that determines the power output instead of the strength of your allomancy.

 

Or has there been WoB that says otherwise?

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These are the two WoBs explaining the process. The characters in-world don't understand Realmatics, and they have no good way to measure things, so I wouldn't take 'ten-fold' as an exact number. (It'd probably be sixteen-fold if it was a number, anyways).

 

 

Open The Fridge
My question is if there’s anything that you’ve never been asked that you would like to talk about?
Brandon Sanderson

Oooooh, ok. Hm. That one is so hard! Every time people ask me something like this... What have I never been asked that people should be asking, is basically what the question is? Something that the fans have just missed... They pick up on so much, that it’s hard... I do wonder if, you know… all the magic systems [in my books] are connected and work on some basic fundamental principles, and a lot of people haven’t been asking questions about this. One thing I did get a question on today, and I’ll just talk about this one... they didn’t ask the right question, but I nudged them the right way, is understanding that tie between Aondor [the magic system from Elantris] and allomancy [Mistborn’s magic system].

People ask about getting the power from metals and things, but that’s not actually how it works. The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of “this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you.” When you understand that, compounding [in Alloy of Law] makes much more sense.

Compounding is where you are able to kind of draw in more power than you should with feruchemy. What’s going on there is you’re actually charging a piece of metal, and then you are burning that metal as a feruchemical charge. What is happening is that the feruchemical charge overwrites the allomantic charge, and so you actually fuel feruchemy with allomancy, is what you are doing. Then if you just get out another piece of metal and store it in, since you’re not drawing the power from yourself, you’re cheating the system, you’re short-circuiting the system a little bit. So you can actually use the power that usually fuels allomancy, to fuel feruchemy, which you can then store in a metalmind, and basically build up these huge reservoirs of it. So what’s going on there is… imagine there’s like, an imprint, a wavelength, so to speak. A beat for an allomantic thing, that when you burn a metal, it says “ok, this is what power we give.” When it’s got that charge, it changes that beat and says, “now we get this power.” And you access a set of feruchemical power. That’s why compounding is so powerful.

 

 

Question
How does compounding work in Mistborn?
Brandon Sanderson

I can explain this better in person because I know things that the characters in the book don’t. So, they haven’t worked a lot of this out. All the magic systems in my work are linked because the books all take place in the same universe. In Elantris, magic works by drawing symbols in the air. What actually happens is that when they draw a symbol, energy passes through it from another place (which is my get-out for the laws of thermodynamics) and the effect of that energy is moderated by the symbol. In one case it may become light, in another it may become fire. In Mistborn, the metals have a similar effect. The magic is not coming from the metal (even if some characters think it is). It is being drawn from the same place and moderated by the metal.

In the case of Feruchemy, no energy is being drawn from this other place. So, you spend a week sick and store up the ability to heal. It’s a balanced system, basically obeying the laws of thermodynamics. So, while it’s not real, it’s still rational.

In compounding, when you have the power of both Allomancy and Feruchemy, you draw power from the other place through the metal and it recognizes the power that is already stored—"Oh, this is healing, I know how to do that”—and so you get the power of Feruchemy but boosted by energy from the other place. This is how the Lord Ruler achieved immortality.

 

(source)

Edited by Moogle
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Thanks for those quotes moogle. The second quote, while it doesn't say it outright, it does seem to suggest that the amount of power released from burning an Fcharged bit of metal is determined by the strength of the individuals allomancy, i.e. X4, X8, X10 and so on. So I'll concede that point.

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Likely the tenfold comparison comes from the average ratio of maximum allomantic energy to maximum feruchemical energy stored per x volume of metal. After all, both are finite, so they can be estimated to a decent accuracy, barring slight fluctuations from allomantic strength. I'm interested to see, however, if you can get away with burning something that has only been charged to an extremely small amount of its total capacity, and so getting an equal allomantic yield while lowering the necessary input.

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