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Shared Compounding


Kurkistan

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So we know from the MAG that "[w]ith proper manipulation [of Feruchemical aluminum], it might be theoretically possible to tap someone else’s metalminds..."
 
There have been some theories on this, with one of the prevalent ones being that a Feruchemist drops themselves to 0 Identity and then their metalminds are "unlocked," and/or that a Feruchemist with 0 Identity can tap someone else's normal storage--doesn't run afoul of whatever mechanism stops people from normally accessing each other's metalminds.
 
Someone asked the former on Twitter today:
 
Source:

Trae Cooper
@BrandSanderson #AskBrandon if you tapped an aluminummind to reduce your identity to 0 n filled a coppermind, could any feruchemist tap it?

‏BrandSanderson
@TraeCooper :)

 

So that.

 

Assuming that ":)" means yes, then I have had a thought. What's to stop an Allomancer from Compounding such an "unlocked" metalmind?

 

This actually goes beyond whether Brandon's answering yes or no, though, since Compounding can do interesting things either way. Even if the trick is just letting Identity-using-Feruchemist access random metalminds, he could still Compound that metalmind if he could burn it Allomantically.

 

But the first case is far more interesting, since the second is essentially just a streamlining of a normal "tap, then store".

 

EDIT: Wait a second, the second case is not "essentially just a streamlining of a normal "tap, then store". It lets an Feruchemical aluminum/a<Anything> twinborn compound whatever his allomantic metal is, without the need to rely upon another Feruchemist being a willing participant and/or a Full Feruchemist. And there's no storing going on. Past-me had a brain fart...  :wacko:

 

---

 

So the first case:

 

Scene:

 

We have an Augar named Amy who's feeling a mite ill. She calls her Full-Feruchemist friend Friendly Frank for a favor: "Could I have some Health, please?"

 

"Sure thing," Friendly Frank says. So he stored Identity and filled up some gold with Health and took it to Amy's hospital bed.

 

"Thanks Frank! You're a lifesaver!"

 

With that, Amy swallowed the metalmind and sensed two distinct reserves. Choosing the unfamiliar one, she burned the gold and was flooded with Health.

 

And so Compounding granted a Feruchemical attribute to an Allomancer

 

FIN

 

And, therefore, Augors are actually useful in the future, once they figure this out, since they'll just make a habit of buying Invested metalminds from full Feruchemists. All other stripes of Allomancers could behave similarly.

 

---

 

Also, a "yes" would essentially confirm some variant of the "key-lock" theory we discussed back in the day.

 

-------

 

UPDATE: Theory confirmed.

Edited by Kurkistan
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Hmmm...I think that might actually work, since Compounding is technically Allomancy, just accessing Feruchemical traits instead of the typical effect.

 

I think you'd have a couple issues though. First, full Feruchemists are probably as rare as Mistborn in later trilogies (though you could always use Hemalurgy...). Second, someone with no spiritual identity would probably lack much motivation to do anything, I think. Also, I'm not sure if it's practical/possible to go to zero, just like a Skimmer can't become weightless. In any case, storing the very essence of your being in a bracelet doesn't sound pleasant.

 

It wouldn't be as efficient true Compounding though. A Twinborn only has to put a little attribute into their metal before continuously re-storing and re-tapping. Amy would have to have a fully charged goldmind to get the same amount of health out of it; she's essentially asking her friend to be sick for her. (Not nice) And a lot of health would be wasted since she couldn't store the excess.

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Identity isn't about motivation (that's Determination, as turns out ;) ), so I think a Soulbearer could manage the task.

 

Rarity of full Feruchemists could be a problem, I'll admit. But Hemalurgy!  :ph34r:

 

As for only being able to approach the limit of zero: perhaps. You probably don't need to go all the way, though; if a Hemalurgist with a hacked-in Spiritual Identity from a spike is close enough to access a metalmind, I think a tiny sliver of Identity wouldn't be a problem.

 

I agree that it certainly would not be as efficient or useful as being a Compounder proper, but it could still be quite useful. Especially if your "supplier" was himself a Compounder. Non-compounding Twinborns could also benefit (so Wax could burn someone else's ironmind steelmind, for instance). [EDIT: That second sentence does not make sense on several levels. Sorry.]

 

I'm not so sure if "fully charged" is necessarily true: we have hints that "charges" are distributed fairly evenly throughout a single metalmind, so even a smidgen should still count. Either way, you could just swallow and burn small shavings at a time to be more frugal.

Edited by Kurkistan
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Due to the power surge inherent to compounding (though the books say something like tenfold as in-world estimates, I'm guessing any MAG supplement will use allomancy rating as your multiplier), Frank wouldn't need to store that much.

Spend an hour ill to get my friend out of the hospital? Gladly. If this comes to pass, there will be a lot of pressure on bloodmakers to play the Mother Theresa role.

Should've been Frankly Full-Feruchemist, for us Snatch fans.

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Seems like a possibility... although if Franky was just a double aluminum Twinborn I suspect that burning his metalminds just wipes them out for no good reason. I wonder then if pre-Ascension Feruchemists did something like this? Presumably they'd know about most kinds of Feruchemy, yes?

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Seems like an Aluminum twinborn burning a bit of Aluminum which has stored identity in it would result in a compounding of the stored identity rather than destruction of wiping of metalminds.  What that would entail is hard to say without further understanding of stored identity.  Multiple personalities?  Extreme self-awareness?  Intense burst of introspection?  Instantanneous self-discovery?  Who knows (other than Brandon)?

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Seems like an Aluminum twinborn burning a bit of Aluminum which has stored identity in it would result in a compounding of the stored identity rather than destruction of wiping of metalminds.  What that would entail is hard to say without further understanding of stored identity.  Multiple personalities?  Extreme self-awareness?  Intense burst of introspection?  Instantanneous self-discovery?  Who knows (other than Brandon)?

 

Actually Brandon has said Aluminum compounding is pretty useless. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=977#65

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Pretty useless sure, but not necessarily without effect.  Realistically, how much practical use are any of the things on that list.

 

But the allomantic ability of Aluminum is to wipe out all of your reserves... so wouldn't it burn out the stored Identity as well?

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Honestly Aluminum should just burn for its Feruchemical effect, given how all other Compounding works, but apparently it's especially weird, with even aluminumminds burning away.
 
Source:

ANDREW THE GREAT
If someone aluminum or duralumin burned the Feruchemically charged metals, what would happen?

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)
Basically the same thing as above, except with aluminum. Aluminum, they would just go away.

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Now, this is an interesting idea. Of course, we don't know much about how compounding feels and controls - we only know the Vin felt a new, inaccessible reserve while she was burning (so possibly she wouldn't have felt it without burning first). In particular, we don't really know if an Allomancer has to tap the reserve while burning, and whether a non-Feruchemist can, in fact, tap something.

But let us presume thatan Allomancer can benefit as described above, just as we presume that ":)" doesn't mean "Mwahahaha, I won't tell you, keep guessing :)", but instead means "yes".

Then, as described, there is a problem of dearth of full Feruchemists/ Hema donors. But never fear! As Hemalurgic technology advances, it would become possible to not only add, but to subtract with it without killing donor! Then, given a Ferring, one would be able to spike his/her Identity out, and fashion the spike into a removable piercing for safekeeping, then spiking donor's Identity back into him/her! Thus, with little to minor side effects[*] a Ferring can become universal donor just by removing piercing, only to put it back later, after metalmind is filled.

 

[*] Possible side effects include violent insanity, body mutation and disfiguration, early death and, rarely, male pregnancy.

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If I recall correctly, Vin was able to sense both reserves without burning: she tried to burn the Feruchemical reserve, but failed, and so then chose to burn the Allomantic one. So she could feel the Feruchemical one without burning, even though it was tuned to Sazed.

 

Using "removable souls" to allow compounding is an interesting thought.

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A quote from the book:

Vin nodded, swallowing the tiny stud. She felt at her Allomantic reserve, but the stud’s metal didn’t seem to do anything different. She tentatively burned pewter.

“Anything?” Sazed asked.

Vin shook her head. “No, I don’t . . .” She trailed off. There was something there, something different.

“What is it, Mistress?” Sazed asked, uncharacteristic eagerness sounding in his voice.

“I.. can feel the power, Saze. It’s faint—far beyond my grasp—but I swear that there’s another reserve within me, one that only appears when I’m burning your metal.”

So, Vin burned first :)

@Vortaan : I was hmmed upon when I asked something similar (whether you can get enough of the allomantic charge by repeatedly stabbing non-allomancers). Brandon mentioned that the systems becomes much like Nalthian

Edited by Satsuoni
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No! Han burned first!  :angry:

 

My mistake, then. That would explain why burning Aluminum doesn't let you Compound: it seems you need at least an instant of Allomantic use before you can see the other reserve to burn, so *poof*.

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No! Han burned first!  :angry:

No! Vin! But only because Han wasn't an Allomancer.

 

My mistake, then. That would explain why burning Aluminum doesn't let you Compound: it seems you need at least an instant of Allomantic use before you can see the other reserve to burn, so *poof*.

I am of the opinion that you *might* be able to Compound Aluminum, but that it is very fiddly, such as requiring a completely full metalmind to evade Allomantic contamination (note that in the quote above the metalmind was mostly empty). Otherwise, poof. But I am by no means certain about it.

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The "removable souls" concept seems useful for repairing the spiritual damage of hemalurgy.  Not really worth considering the "how" though if you can't compound identity, or otherwise get out more than you put in.

 

Unless you can store yourself down to a vegetable before being spiked and tap after you've had an ability stolen from you (as long as it's not Feruchemical aluminum that was taken).  Kinda off topic, so I'll shelf this idea until it's relevant.

Edited by Pechvarry
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I am of the opinion that you *might* be able to Compound Aluminum, but that it is very fiddly, such as requiring a completely full metalmind to evade Allomantic contamination (note that in the quote above the metalmind was mostly empty). Otherwise, poof. But I am by no means certain about it.

 

Also, Vin was uber-inexperienced with this kind of thing and it was not her feruchemical charge.  Both of these may have factored into how things went down with her not being able to sense it properly.  Remember, compounding was completely unknown to Sazed and Vin.

 

But, that being said, the "Basically the same thing as above, except with aluminum.  Aluminum, they would just go away" quote seems fairly definitive that the metal with the charge goes poof.

 

I wonder if a duralumin twinborn could to a super-powered compound by charging and burning a duralumin-mind and boosting by burning a second piece of duralumin which is uncharged.

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I would like to note that his "Duralumin" there was Preservation-fueled, though I doubt that changes anything. Just worth keeping in mind.

 

I don't know. He had a belly-full of the stuff, if I recall. Compressing it all down into a single instant of comprehension might do the trick.

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I looked it up today (hardcover pg. 544 and 545).  Elend didn't burn duralumin until his atium was nearly depleted.  And, I doubt that atium could be direct pumped by Preservation, so I don't think that is an option.  I agree with you that it would be unexpected if preservation pumped duralumin is any more powerful than regular metal fueled duralumin.  So, I am inclined to think duralumin does not just provide a sum total of the metal reserve being enhanced, but actually boosts beyond that.

 

The other alternative I see is that atium's god-metal status may play into it.  If so, what happens with duralumin boosted lerasium :blink: ?

 

I think this would be an excellent question (series) for Brandon: 

 

At the end of HoA, Elend burns duralumin with his remaining atium and gets a massive download of knowledge.  Does a duralumin enhanced burn provide the sum total of the reserve of the metal enhanced or is it a synergistic effect where you get a greater effect then the sum total of the reserve?

 

If Brandon answers that it is sum total, then ask: 

 

So, Elend was nearly out of atium when he burned duralumin; Did the massive download occur as a result of atium being a god-metal?

If yes, then ask: 

 

If an allomancer with the power to burn duralumin burned duralumin and lerasium (default burn) would there be an enhanced effect since lerasium is a god-metal as well?

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Hmm. Interesting. I'm still not 100%, though. If I recall correctly (call me out if I don't), Elend didn't specify any amount of time left on his Atium, and had just then been using reserves best measured in terms of hours, rather than the usual minutes. On top of that, he was measuring how long he had to live, essentially, so "low" might be a relative term.

 

Even a minute's worth of Atium, compressed into a split second, might still be able to do the trick. The future he was trying to see was literally a few minutes away from being actualized, after all, so he didn't have that far to go.

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It actually didn't say he was low.  In fact it actually said something to the effect of 'and then his atium ran out'.  A couple of paragraphs later it says that he then burned duralumin with atium.  This tells me he had at most just a titch left when he burned duralumin, (unless we are to infer that Vin supplied it, which seems extraordinarily unlikely).  Also, I don't know how much knowledge or insight into Ruin's plans and Marsh's future would be found in a minutes worth of atium.  I recall Brandon saying that Elend chose to not kill Marsh because of what he saw in the info dump. 

 

In any case the scene is in chapter 81 if you want to check it out electronically.  It seems pretty clear that he certainly did not have a significant quantity of atium left at that point.

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