Why Didn’t Renarin Reveal His Radiancy?

[maxal]

Dalinar felt a discomfort while bonding his new Blade prior to stating any oaths. He only hears the screaming after he said two oaths, back to back. Which one triggered the screams? We do not know. However we do know enough to guess Renarin had not progressed far enough to hear them when he initially bonded his Blade as he only felt a mild discomfort. The first evidence we have of him hearing them is during the Parshedin attack, with Adolin. It is also when we noticed he has healed his vision which demanded conscious use of stormlight: the only unconscious use of stormlight we have see was for life-threatening injuries. While it is not impossible Renarin unconsciously healed his eye vision, it seems more probable he did it consciously which implies he said the 2nd oath at that point in time.

 

We can thus assume Renarin has said at least the first oath, probably the second oath, in between chapter 14 and chapter 28 (I think).

 

Also since Glys seems to have finally become articulate enough to confirm Renarin was a Truthwatcher (Syl needed the second oath to reach this state, but it is probable Glys needed more, we just do not know how fast the various sprens progress), we can also guess Renarin said another oath at the end of WoR.

 

He would thus be either a Level 2 or a Level 3 Radiant, but not less than that. It puts him either at the same level of Kaladin or a bit lower, higher than Dalinar as he is more experienced.

[DreamEternal]

Probably the bound human can directly sense the anguish of the undead spren and I assume that in a person with a seizure condition, this can trigger a seizure, just like strong sensual input can trigger migraine in a person prone to it.

No, I am not talking about actual seizures. I am talking about how it may feel for a first oath Radiant to touch a dead blade. Renarin didn't have seizures when the blade screamed at him, other characters just assumed so because he was almost paralysed.

@Maxal: he didn't feel a mild disconfort. He winced. He also happened to be able to hold a screaming blade for a long time while Dalinar was instantly repulsed by it.

Edited January 5, 2016 by DreamEternal

[maxal]

@Maxal: he didn't feel a mild disconfort. He winced. He also happened to be able to hold a screaming blade for a long time while Dalinar was instantly repulsed by it.

 

When the Parshendi attack, the yield his Blade and he stops right there, unable to act. When the Assassin in White attacks, he can't keep it in his hands, so he discards it on the floor. Had he heard the screams in chapter 14, he would have likely dropped it instead of just winced. Yes, he withstand the screams during the duel (the only time where we see him hold his Blade for more than a few moments) but, at that point in time, he knew they would come if he summoned his Blade and Adolin was in danger. He did it for his brother, to protect him, so he sucked it up. I doubt he would have lasted this long if not for Adolin being hammered down mercilessly. He knew nobody would come to his aid, he knew his brother would get killed or maimed, so he jumped in hoping to distract one or two of them long enough for Adolin to take the upper hand. It was very brave, but I also think the circumstances made him more mind ready to withstand the screams than the first time he is given the Blade, without any preparation. I thus don't think the fact he held the Blade while it screamed during the duel in indicates he heard them in chapter 14. It is not impossible, but I'd say it is implausible.

 

I thus maintain my position: he said the first and perhaps the second oath in between chapter 14 and 28. He probably said another oath towards the end. I thus place him as either a level 2 or a level 3, one of the other.

[Oversleep]

I always thought that Renarin heard the screams as well as Kaladin but was so strong willed and composed he didn't show it. But it also could be true that zero and First Ideal Radiants don't hear the screams, just feel uneasy.

[maxal]

I always thought that Renarin heard the screams as well as Kaladin but was so strong willed and composed he didn't show it. But it also could be true that zero and First Ideal Radiants don't hear the screams, just feel uneasy.

 

We know Level 0 Radiants don't here the screams because Dalinar had to say oaths to start hearing them. Now do they start at Level 1 or Level 2, this we do not have enough information to decide.

 

I also think Renarin composed well with the screams for two reasons: 1) He thought it was his own head who was missing with him, 2) Adolin needed help.

[DreamEternal]

Again, you ignore I am saying that even if the if second oaths trigger the full screaming, the first may trigger something else, or a lesser version of then. I am not saying he heard the screams from the beggining, only that it seems like he felt more than mild discomfort.

Edited January 5, 2016 by DreamEternal

[Garfield]

When the Parshendi attack, the yield his Blade and he stops right there, unable to act. When the Assassin in White attacks, he can't keep it in his hands, so he discards it on the floor. Had he heard the screams in chapter 14, he would have likely dropped it instead of just winced. Yes, he withstand the screams during the duel (the only time where we see him hold his Blade for more than a few moments) but, at that point in time, he knew they would come if he summoned his Blade and Adolin was in danger. He did it for his brother, to protect him, so he sucked it up. I doubt he would have lasted this long if not for Adolin being hammered down mercilessly. He knew nobody would come to his aid, he knew his brother would get killed or maimed, so he jumped in hoping to distract one or two of them long enough for Adolin to take the upper hand. It was very brave, but I also think the circumstances made him more mind ready to withstand the screams than the first time he is given the Blade, without any preparation. I thus don't think the fact he held the Blade while it screamed during the duel in indicates he heard them in chapter 14. It is not impossible, but I'd say it is implausible.

 

 

And it s unlikely that he had spoken an oath before he bonded the blade, because we see him carrying around with no agonizing effects.

 

So when you have attracted a spren and are in the process of bonding to it, but not yet spoken an oath, at maximum you feel repulsed by the blades, but they don't have the screaming in your head effect

Edited January 5, 2016 by Garfield

[maxal]

Again, you ignore I am saying that even if the if second oaths trigger the full screaming, the first may trigger something else, or a lesser version of then. I am not saying he heard the screams from the beggining, only that it seems like he felt more than mild discomfort.

 

It isn't what you said, unless I missed a part of it   You simply said you considered "winced" as being more than a mild discomfort, to which I am not sure I can agree. Wincing is among the reactions I would personally expect for a mild discomfort, not an extreme one as you seem to be suggesting. Am I right or wrong? I don't know. The other character I recall who winced in book is Adolin, twice. Once he winced when he tried to flexed his broken hand. How painful was the injury? He also winced at the end when he tried to smile with his bruised face: was he experiencing true pain or just a mild discomfort? I don't know, I have little basis to evaluate this and correlating it to Renarin's experience is even more tedious. We also weren't privy to Dalinar when he bonded his Blade: he spoke is a discomfort, but to which extend? Was it painful? Also apart from hearing screams, is holding a screaming Blade painful or just uncomfortable?

 

We are playing with perception and semantics here as neither of us have strong enough arguments to conclude either way. The truth is we are unsure what kind of reaction is triggered by which oath: the only hard fact we currently have is after the 2nd oath, Bondsmith hear the screams. Is it the same for all orders? We do not know.

 

We can only guess and my current guess is as I said: Renarin spoke the first oath in between chapter 14 and 28. He spoke either the second or the third towards the end.

[+Wax]

Yeah, "healing" is a really problematic, and frankly offensive, topic. One thing I want to make perfectly clear is that with autism there is nothing /to/ be healed, an autistic individual's brain is merely wired differently, it is not wired "wrong". This is not something that Stormlight is going to be able to change, for the same reason Stormlight cannot "fix" Kaladin's depression.

I wouldn't call it offensive, atleast IMO. ASD can be debilitating until people learn how to cope. It is something worth investing medical dollars to prevent / treat.

[maxal]

I wouldn't call it offensive, atleast IMO. ASD can be debilitating until people learn how to cope. It is something worth investing medical dollars to prevent / treat.

 

Perhaps autistic individuals would disagree with you. 

[DreamEternal]

I wouldn't call it offensive, atleast IMO. ASD can be debilitating until people learn how to cope. It is something worth investing medical dollars to prevent / treat.

On non-extreme cases, it is debilitating only because other people try to force the autistic individual to behave "normaly" instead of tolerating their differences from the avarege.

"Healing" non-extreme autism is comparable to overwriting someone's personality because you don't like who they are.

Edited January 5, 2016 by DreamEternal

[Garfield]

Perhaps autistic individuals would disagree with you. 

 

 

You have to remember that there are not only more mild forms of Asperger autism where you can have very good quality of life if you have an understanding environment, the right job etc, but also much more severe forms of it that inevitably come with a lot of suffering.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Garfield

[DreamEternal]

You have to remember that there are not only more mild forms of Asperger autism that can have very good quality of life when they have an understanding environment, the right job etc, but also much more severe forms of it.

When I said "extreme", I meant extreme enough to make such a life impossible. Althought I don't support a full "cure" even on these cases.

EDIT: Just noticed you meant the other post. Anyway, I will keep my clarification here.

EDIT2: And you edited your post again and turns out you meant the opposite I thought you did. Not sorry anymore.

Edited January 5, 2016 by DreamEternal

[+Wax]

When I said "extreme", I meant extreme enough to make such a life impossible. I am sorry if I seemed to mean otherwise. And I don't support a full "cure" even on these cases.

EDIT: Just noticed you meant the other post. Anyway, I will keep my clarification here.

I think there are two issues. One is showing respect to individuals with autism. They are not diseased. It's like they have a slightly mangled little finger (not the best comparison). No one would hold or should hold anything against them.

Would you try to help anyone straighten a mangled finger, if you are their parent and they are a kid or if they wanted to? Absolutely.

@maxal. One of my kids is mildly autistic, so I have some idea, even if I am not autistic myself.

[DreamEternal]

@Axcellence

I am slightly autistic, on roughly the same level as Renarin, although I cope differently and perhaps better, and I can say I find your comparison between autism and a mangled finger very inexact.

And are the "problems" that come with autism more because of autism itself, or because society was built in a way that hinders those who are different?

EDIT

@Maxal:

On Renarin's shardblade induced wincing: I took it as meaning mild physical pain, like how the in the exemples you posted of Adolin's wincing there was pain involved. Nothing too extreme, but certainly more than a disconfort.

Edited January 5, 2016 by DreamEternal

[maxal]

You have to remember that there are not only more mild forms of Asperger autism where you can have very good quality of life if you have an understanding environment, the right job etc, but also much more severe forms of it that inevitably come with a lot of suffering.

 

I have seen one of those cases at my children's daycare. I do not know where, on the scale, this little boy would rank, but I was told he was a rather severe case. I do not know either what his long term life prospects would be. What I do know is the child, at the age of 4, was still unable to use speech to communicate thought he did understand instructions well enough. He had a lot of tantrums and he had a fixation on babies. When my son was a baby, each time I came to get my daughter, he could rapidly jump on the baby, clawing him. He didn't intend to do bad, I figure it was his way to say hello... but he had not pass the stage where he understood he was causing pain. 

 

He required a strict environment and was able to use some signs to communicate. Despite this, he functioned well within the daycare. Schooling however, would have been difficult for him. He has since then been transferred to a special needs children's school.

 

I am not this child's mother. I wouldn't know how I would feel if it were my own son. I can understand though why some parents would want a cure. I can understand why some parents would not want a cure. 

 

I would rather individuals decide for themselves and not society. If someone would rather have a "cure" and this person is old enough to take this decision, by himself, then who am I to oppose myself? I wouldn't however ever forced this on anyone. In that optic, Renarin is a much more interesting character if he remains autistic and learns how to use his difference to his advantage: great memorization skills, aptitude to focus for a prolonged period of time on one aspect of things, these are desirable traits in certain areas.

 

 

@maxal. One of my kids is mildly autistic, so I have some idea, even if I am not autistic myself.

 

I didn't mean to be antagonist. This echos my current post: I can understand why people would want a cure just as I understand why people wouldn't want one. I am, however, not the parent of an autistic child: I cannot talk for them, but I can sympathize with them. Raising a child with a difference, even the smallest one, is not easy, for anyone.

Edited January 5, 2016 by maxal

[+Wax]

@Axcellence

I am slightly autistic, on roughly the same level as Renarin, although I cope differently and perhaps better, and I can say I find your comparison between autism and a mangled finger very inexact.

And are the "problems" that come with autism more because of autism itself, or because society was built in a way that hinders those who are different?

 

 

 

If you read my original post - I am only saying it's not offensive for someone to seek treatment.  You are OK with how you are  - and I say power to you.  But at the same time, you are getting offended if others seek it for themselves or their loved ones.

 

No point blaming society.  Being toilet trained, able to point something with your finger, socialise, not be freaked out by light, being able to go to a dark cinema hall, are pretty basic things.  We can choose not to do any of them, but everyone should have the capability to do those things if it is possible by therapy, etc.

 

I didn't mean to be antagonist. This echos my current post: I can understand why people would want a cure just as I understand why people wouldn't want one. I am, however, not the parent of an autistic child: I cannot talk for them, but I can sympathize with them. Raising a child with a difference, even the smallest one, is not easy, for anyone.

 

Thanks maxal - exactly what I said above.  It is OK for people to be OK with it, and it is OK for other people to seek treatment.

Edited January 6, 2016 by axcellence

[Garfield]

 

Radiant Renarin shows signs of autism, Radiant Kaladin cycles through clinical depessions, Radiant Shallan has PTSD and copes with repressing stuff.

 

If Szeths revival means he becomes a Skybreaker Radiant, we can expect him to be a complete nut case.

 

There apparently is another Skybreaker nut case out there who executes a homeless proto Radiant kids for breaking into houses to steal food and another proto Radiant for having committed a murder decades ago..

 

 

 

 

Jasnah seems the only emotionally stable one of the bunch, she has "only" ordered the murder of several people. Mmh, poor Dalinar and his psychiatric Radiant ward.....

 

 

 

 

.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Garfield

[DreamEternal]

@axcellence: I am sorry, but are we talking about what kinds of autism? Because there are bound to be more extreme cases that need treatment, just like if someone had a panic attack whenever tyat person wasn't alone, treatment would be needed.

[manavortex]

I dont think that 'treatment' equals medication, surgery and personality wipes, more likely therapy to help the one who cannot cope to find ways and workarounds. Look at Renarin, I bet he is the high Lord of workarounds. Try walking over a medieval court and not get flash-banged by someone's fancy armour to cause the next epilepsy fit... Yet he copes.

[Garfield]

@axcellence: I am sorry, but are we talking about what kinds of autism? Because there are bound to be more extreme cases that need treatment, just like if someone had a panic attack whenever tyat person wasn't alone, treatment would be needed.

 

 

 

Renarin is depicted to be a light case of Asperger autism, combined with a social phobia.

 

(I know someone who is a high functioning Asperger and she has no general social fears but is quite extroverted)

Edited January 6, 2016 by Garfield

[DreamEternal]

I dont think that 'treatment' equals medication, surgery and personality wipes, more likely therapy to help the one who cannot cope to find ways and workarounds. Look at Renarin, I bet he is the high Lord of workarounds. Try walking over a medieval court and not get flash-banged by someone's fancy armour to cause the next epilepsy fit... Yet he copes.

I was talking not about treatment that teaches how to cope with the weaknesses and especific probkems of living with autism, but the idea of "healing" autism, and also assumed axcellence had included less extreme forms of autism.

I think it is a matter of word choices. "Healing autism" seems to me something much more extreme than "treating the sympthons of autism". Of course, it is subjective and I may have understood wrongly.

@Garfield: I know about where in the espectrum Renarin is. My question was about axcellence's posts, that seem to refer to much more extreme cases.

Edited January 6, 2016 by DreamEternal

[Stormgate]

I would like to propose a potential 'healing' for autism in-Cosmere. It makes the part of Renarin's personality that has substandard abilities compared with normal people (social skills and such) while retaining the enhanced parts (savant intelligence, etc.) I really don't know that much, but what do people think?

[Pathfinder]

Well random chiming in. I will admit I know very little about autism and or the spectrum. Just a comment about the way the healing magic works, and from everyone's comments. If healing in Sanderson's works work predicated on how a person views themselves, and autism is a core component of a person's personality, then I do not see stormlight healing it regardless the connotation. Whether the person wants it healed, doesn't want it healed, sees it negatively or positively. If Kaladin identifying with his slave brands is enough to cause them to remain, then I don't think it would be humanly possible to divest yourself of your identity (unless your a feruchemist) enough to "heal" it. Just my two clear chips on the matter. Focusing purely on the magic, and not on the ethics of healing it, or not healing it, or whether it should be healed or not. Hope i wrote that well lol

Edited January 6, 2016 by Pathfinder

[DreamEternal]

I would like to propose a potential 'healing' for autism in-Cosmere. It makes the part of Renarin's personality that has substandard abilities compared with normal people (social skills and such) while retaining the enhanced parts (savant intelligence, etc.) I really don't know that much, but what do people think?

Stormlight does not heal Shallan's difficulty with facing the truth, and from a storytelling perspective fixing flaws and weaknesses linked to a character's personality with magic is very unsatisfying and can only be worth it if the person does it by their own decision and must commit great sacrifices for or because of it.

Edited January 6, 2016 by DreamEternal