ostrichofevil Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 Several months ago I posted a theory on what the surges of Cohesion and Tension do. Here is a link to that post, but I'll sum it up below: Cohesion: Weaken, or even dissolve the intermolecular bonds within a substance. Tension: Strengthen the bonds within a substance However, this theory has a major problem: the actual force of cohesion (wikipedia page) holds substances together, while in my theory Cohesion breaks them apart. Also, my idea for the Surge of Tension doesn't have much to do with what Tension actually is. (and the Coppermind page says that it alters the stiffness of an object.) So, here is my new theory for what the Surges of Cohesion, Division, and Tension do: Cohesion: Strengthen the intermolecular/atomic bonds within a substance or object. Example uses: - Create a wall of solid air by strengthening the bonds between the air molecules. - Make your armor virtually impregnable by strengthening the metallic bonding. Tension: Make a substance stiffer--increase its tension Example uses: - Stiffen a carpet, allowing people to walk on it--and then when they've fallen for your trap, release it, and watch them fall into your strategically located pit. - Walk on water by increasing its surface tension Division: Weaken, or even dissolve the bonds that hold an object together. The opposite of Cohesion. Example uses: - Weaken the intermolecular bonds that hold your enemies together, and watch them dissolve into piles of sludge. - Destroy the bonds that hold a wall together, allowing you to walk right through. That's my new theory. Please reply with feedback, speculation, and/or possible uses for these powers. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 Has it occurred to you that some sort of power that manipulates "cohesion" should logically be able to both strengthen and weaken the forces? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfa Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 We know from TWOK-Prelude, that Division had to do with melting Stones and even fire. I think division is much more destructive than "cohesion backwards" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ostrichofevil Posted August 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 Has it occurred to you that some sort of power that manipulates "cohesion" should logically be able to both strengthen and weaken the forces? Really? Wind runners can't weaken gravitation; they can only create it. If you see a wind runner who's floating it's because they've created reverse gravity to counter Roshar's. We know from TWOK-Prelude, that Division had to do with melting Stones and even fire. I think division is much more destructive than "cohesion backwards" My Division can be used to melt stones. If you weaken the intermolecular bonds in a solid, it will melt (without heat). As for fire, I believe that that is created using Abrasion, by the Dustbringers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pestis the Spider Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 (edited) Cohesion needs to work both ways. There was a WoB saying that person using cohesion would be able to leave the handprint in the table. So obviously to do that you first need to weaken the bonds between atoms of the material the table is made of. EDIT: As for windrunners not being able to weaken the gravitation: I think this is a poor example. It is not said that they can't do it, I just think they don't do it, because it's pointless. Normal objects (like Kaladin's shield and stuff) have already incredibly weak gravitation so you would achieve nothing by weakening it. And Roshar is just too big to be affected as a whole, probably because of how much stormlight would be necessary. And if it was possible to affect only... let's say 4 m2 area below you to try to float in the air, the gravitation of Roshar just behind this area would still pull you down really strong, and basically floating still would be impossible. It's reasonably easier to create an opposite gravitation in this case. EDIT2: And how Abrasion could be used to create fire? I really don't remember this scene from the TWOK Prelude, so I'm just struggling to understand. Could someone explain to me? Edited August 29, 2015 by Pestis the Spider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 (edited) Gravitation manipulates the spiritual gravitational connection between the object and the world though. It doesn't really need to nullify anything or affect Roshar itself. Which is what is weird about half-lashings. Is lashing portions of existing weight actually possible, or is it just how it's operated in their minds? Because multiple lashings generate free acceleration out of nowhere, but fractions somehow steal from existing force. As for abrasion and fire, that would involve increasing friction no? We already know abrasion can decrease it. The point still stands. Edited August 29, 2015 by natc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pestis the Spider Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 (edited) As for abrasion and fire, that would involve increasing friction no? We already know abrasion can decrease it. The point still stands. But how increased friction between objects suddenly causes fire? Wouldn't they need to move against each other, before the fire starts, like you do with flints? And at least one of them would need to be easy to burn? That's a lot of conditions for creating the fire. I'm not a physicist, I don't get it really. What was actually burning in the prelude? Can someone remind me? I don't have book with me. Edited August 29, 2015 by Pestis the Spider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 The rock was smoldering I believe. Kalak basically just goes "well the dustbringers sure did their job thoroughly" so it's probably something they end up doing a lot. If they Divide something combustible into dust and then increase the friction, I suppose sparking a dust explosion won't be too difficult? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfa Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 The rock was smoldering I believe. Kalak basically just goes "well the dustbringers sure did their job thoroughly" so it's probably something they end up doing a lot. If they Divide something combustible into dust and then increase the friction, I suppose sparking a dust explosion won't be too difficult? Not quite sure. For fire as describes you need at least three components: something combustible, friction and movement; but Releasers had no abilities to produce movement. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 Perhaps, but maybe just sliding across desintegrated stone wearing shardplate is enough? I don't know if just the dust crashing against itself would be enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 Not quite sure. For fire as describes you need at least three components: something combustible, friction and movement; but Releasers had no abilities to produce movement. Dust explosions are a lot easier to cause than you give them credit for. It usually just takes a strong enough heat source (flame or otherwise) and a lot of combustible powder suspended in air in one area. Of course, rock not being combustible is the real issue here. It's a mystery. And yeah, for all we know just powersliding in Plate can cause enough heat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 I believe that Brandon said that Cohesion governed weak interaxial forces and Tension governed strong interaxial forces. Division governs "Destruction and Decay", according to the coppermind. IMO, Willshapers (Transportation + Cohesion) will basically be like earthbenders from Avatar: The Last Airbender. I'm hoping that Stonewards (Cohesion + Tension) will be able to perform acts of technomancy, as weak interaxial forces + strong interaxial forces = all interaxial forces. I posted about it here, if you want to read it. Not trying to plug my own thread, but I'm too lazy to write it all over again: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/34923-stoneward-surge-potential/ Anyways, Division sounds like an odd surge. I've done some thinking about it, and I think it may involve an aging mechanic, mainly because of the "decay" part of its description. If anyone has ever seen Ben 10 Alien force, I think that Division may have a similar effect to the lab assistant from the Ben 10 Alien Force episode "Paradox" http://ben10.wikia.com/wiki/Paradox_(Episode) I can't find a video link, but I think that Division rapidly accelerates time for the infused object, which would either cause it to decay or become inert, thanks to entropy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ostrichofevil Posted September 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 I can't find a video link, but I think that Division rapidly accelerates time for the infused object, which would either cause it to decay or become inert, thanks to entropy. Sounds more like progression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 Sounds more like progression. How does accelerating time helps healing a slit throath? The power a surge grants is not based on its name. It is the opposite, in fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 (edited) Sounds more like progression. I found a video. I don't think anyone in their right mind would call this progression. Edited September 29, 2015 by Patrick Star Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ostrichofevil Posted September 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 How does accelerating time helps healing a slit throath? The power a surge grants is not based on its name. It is the opposite, in fact. I think Progression usually works by accelerating the body's natural healing process. It could also be used to accelerate other things, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 I don't think Abrasion would be useful for starting a fire. Maybe you could move forward fast, and then stop really fast to convert your kinetic energy to heat... but that seems unlikely to be useful. I suspect their thing was more gliding around setting everything they touched to fire via Division. You can cover a lot of surface area if you don't have to worry about friction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 I think Progression usually works by accelerating the body's natural healing process. It could also be used to accelerate other things, though. But if we assume it works like regular stormlight healing, them how can your natural regeneration put broken bones back into their places and heal long lost limbs? I think it is more like forcing your body back in shape, simply creating flesh out of thin air if needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 I think Progression usually works by accelerating the body's natural healing process. It could also be used to accelerate other things, though. Progression is the surge of GROWTH and HEALING. Division is the surge of DESTRUCTION and DECAY. Decay only occurs due to entropy, as the infused object becomes an inert cloud of dust. Or in other words, it would effectively accelerate time for the infused object, causing it to lose energy and integrity. That is the exact opposite of what progression does. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParadoxicalZen Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 I'm expecting Division to do something akin to nuclear fission (on a much smaller scale) or perhaps exciting the molecules to an extent where they just explode. As patrick says, destruction and decay caused through acceleration of entropy perhaps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 (edited) I believe that Brandon said that Cohesion governed weak interaxial forces and Tension governed strong interaxial forces.It's actually the opposite. It's Cohesion that governs strong interaxial forces. Tension is for "soft" interaxial forces. Regarding Cohesion, the hand-imprint thing sounds like malleability-control (I believe Moogle already theorized that), but I think that's just one aspect of it. For example, I've always thought that the Dysian Aimian ability to rearrange their body parts as well as the behavior of conjoined fabrials are both related to the Cohesion Surge. I believe it grants the ability to handle permanent change (plasticity) while still remaining spiritually "whole". So, using Cohesion, it is easier to deform something even beyond its normal breaking point, and if you manage to divide it the pieces will still act as a single entity. Tension being described as "making soft things rigid" might have confused some people a bit into thinking that Tension is the "strong" one, which is understandable. "Soft" forces don't really come to mind when thinking of rigidity. I think that the "soft" and "strong" descriptions can best be understood by thinking of these Surges in terms of the concepts of Identity and Change. Here's my theory: Tension offers a softer protection to an object's Identity because it is merely reactive to change. It is a resistive force against changes to an object's physical aspect, but this resistance can be overwhelmed. And once the protection of the Tension Surge on an object is broken by a stronger force, the object is simply destroyed. Cohesion, however, embraces change in the object, but ensures that the Spiritual connections making up its soul remains intact, so that destroying its outside appearance does not destroy its Identity. The protection it grants to the object's Identity is therefore conceptually stronger than Tension's protection. Edited September 29, 2015 by skaa 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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